a petition to PERRO

[jfowl31]

Perro... you may not have time to do this... but could you please put up your thoughts on bolt gap/grinding bolts and all that again... hopefully it was saved in some form or other.

Itd be nice to have that as a sticky here, and also on the gunsmithing forum.

It was certainly a good read, and absolutely important for new guys to read and fully comprehend how these rifles work.

hope its not too much bother.

[landtoy80]

I can answer the ground bolt question:
Grinding a bolt, bad
not grinding a bolt, good
CIA, bad
MARS, good

[Perro]

i have nothing saved post wise
they got everything unfortunately.

ill try and make another really good video for everyone, but not sure when - work REALLY sucks for me right now

[rep30cal]

I have the video saved of how and why pressing your barrel increases
your bolt gap. It is the one that, I assume, Perro uses the halved
barrel and trunion, and explaines the locking piece, rollers and bolt head
in the locking process. How would I go about giving it back to the site?

[M1 Tanker]

Rep30, you can email it to me. Check your PMs.

[texlurch]

Jfowl, what we need to do it go back and copy and cleanup the thread on THR with the infamous Drakejake. There are good diagrams, info and links in there explaining how the system works, and how the timing is not affected by grinding the rear of the bolt, just the air gap.

*edit*

OK, I went back and gathered the basics, in a word doc. Can I email it to a couple peeps for review/additions, and we'll have something to start with?

[jfowl31]

e-mail it to me Lurch... jfowl31@gmail.com

I'll look it over and see if any other errant information needs to be taken out... there were a couple posts on that thread that weren't exactly correct information, like the arguments over what a Locking Piece is called and stuff like that... that one damn diagram that called it a "firing pin holder"... that kinda stuff could be edited out and the pertinent info just left in there.

But youre right, that thread did have some good info on it.

Ive got a couple over on gunboards too that has some good info in them as well that I can throw in.

[jfowl31]

oh... the threads on gunboards are with drakejake too... so theres some good arguing back and forth about burden of proof and crap like that... but I think the truth shows through. It becomes inherently obvious as the threads are read who doesnt know what they are talking about.

[jfowl31]

p.s..... 400 posts!!!!!

[texlurch]

I'll send it over. I didn't copy the thread, just went back and got the pertinent info and retyped it all.

I'd like to get M1tanker, Perro and Rusty to review as well...

Along with the video Perro did showing what happens when the barrel is pressed should give a real good start.

[AK AJ]

I don't know if this is any help, But I found this link again we had on the old board.
This is explaining the locking system.
http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm

It's a good read and explains it in an easy to understand way.
Hope this helps.


AJ

[texlurch]

Here is what I have so far; if you are familiar with the inner workings please critique:

Ground bolts, bolt gap, and their explanation:

To understand bolt gap, let’s look at how the roller locked, blow back system works, and how it relates to headspace.


First, what is headspace? Headspace is set by the distance from the front shoulder of the chamber to the recess in the bolt face. That has nothing (well, little) to do with bolt gap. Measuring headspace in these things is a tedious process, since the bolt can "adjust" itself to case length. So we can concentrate on the locking system and its parts.

So, how does the bolt locking system work?

Unlock timing of the roller locked, blowback system has to do with how and where the rollers are in the trunnion recess. Since this is the only lock for the bolt, it is critical that the bolt unlocks correctly, both for operation and safety. Timing in the CETME is slightly different from the G3/HK91.

Here is a link to an in-depth description on the H&K roller locked, delayed blowback system (for you technical types):

http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm (http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm)

<O:p
<O:p
As you can see, the only thing that locks the bolt in battery is the force of the rollers against the trunnion. Yes, there is a recoil spring. Its only function is to slow down the bolt, and return it forward after firing.

The only simple indicator of bolt position and parts wear, as recommended by CETME and HK, is bolt gap.
<O:p
<O:p
The Cetme/G3 manuals say that bolt gap should be .004 to .020. This distance is between the rear of the bolt head, and the front of the bolt carrier, with the gun in battery and an empty chamber. Note that the locking piece is different in the CETME and HK, as is the bolt head, and cannot be interchanged. The rollers do interchange. Bolt head OAL (overall length) on a CETME is 1.835", on a HK it is 1.845". Use this measurement to determine if your bolt is ground or worn. The rear of the bolt head should also have a bevel.
<O:p
Let’s step back and take a look of the operation of the bolt, and how it is locked into the trunnion. Unlike most weapons, which use a lug system, the CETME/HK have rollers, which “pop” out into recesses in the trunnion, as the bolt slams forward into battery.
<O:p
Here is a diagram of the CETME chamber:<O:p</O:p
<O:p
<O:phttp://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=51305&d=1168866855

(Just to save confusion, in this diagram the trunnion is labeled "locking piece", and the locking piece is labeled "firing pin holder". This was from a Spanish manual and translated, so I apologize for any confusion. Locking piece is the correct name for the "firing pin holder")
</O:p
<O:p
<O:p</O:pThis is in the locked, ready to fire position. Note the relationship of the various parts. The face of the bolt is in contact with the chamber end of the barrel, the rollers are forced out into the trunnion, by the locking piece (arrow shaped part inside the bolt, with firing pin running thru it). The locking piece is pressed forward by the carrier. Note the shell in the chamber, and the recess on the bolt face. Wear on the bolt face or rear of barrel could affect headspace, and would be indicated by a decrease in bolt gap. But remember, gap does not measure headspace, only wear. Wear in other parts is also indicated by changes in the gap.<O:p
<O:p
Remember this important note: bolt gap is an indicator of wear, assuming proper dimensions of bolt parts. <O:p
<O:p
In an in-spec weapon, there is a gap between the rear of the bolt head and the bolt carrier.<O:p</O:p
<O:p
Now, take at look at this diagram (this is an HK, and has some slightly different angles):
<O:p
http://www.hkpro.com/techfig4.jpg

This shows how the relationship of the rollers, LP and trunnion change as the barrel moves back, or forward as parts wear. You can see how the forces and angles change, as well as the timing of the unlocking phase.

Now. As parts wear, the locking piece will go farther forward inside the bolt head, and the bolt gap will decrease. The gap decreases because the LP is held in the bolt carrier, so as the LP moves foward, it takes the carrier forward with it, closing the space between it and the rear of the bolt head. The gap is nothing more than a way to measure the wear of the critical parts in your weapons bolt locking system. This is critical, as it is the ONLY thing that contains the 50,000 PSI chamber pressure when you fire.
<O:p
Stop and think about that. We are talking .001 changes affecting the entire system. The ratio of the CETME is 1:4; in other words for each change in the face of the barrel or bolt face, the rollers and angles change the gap by four. For example, press the barrel back .001, you gain .004 in gap.

<O:p
At some point in the wear cycle, the carrier will bottom on the rear of the bolt head. This is zero gap. If the weapon is fired past that, the rollers will start to get loose in their recesses, since the carrier can no longer push the locking piece far enough forward to press the rollers out correctly. This is an extremely unsafe condition, as there is no positive lock to contain chamber pressures. On a blowback only weapon (like a Thompson SMG) the bolt is made large and heavy to tame the recoil forces. On the CETME/HK, it can launch the lighter bolt assembly back with extreme force.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
If the bolt lock timing is off, either way (too tight or too much), you can have case separations, excessive recoil, and extraction failures. In extreme cases it can cause catastophic failure to the weapon.

So, if you grind the back of the bolt to provide a false indicator of wear, what do you have? A gun that maybe works, or maybe doesn't. It is also a gun that is in a condition that CETME and HK would never recommend. <O:p

But, why does a ground bolt induce a false gap? The Century builders ground the rear of the bolt, to give an acceptable measured gap. Why would they need to do this? Because the rifles were assembled from used parts, and had an unacceptable bolt gap when done.This was due either to worn trunnions, improperly pressed barrels, or excessively worn parts that were used to assemble the guns. Study the above diagrams for a few minutes, and think about that. While you are doing that, consider all the wear points we are dealing with: Barrel chamber end, bolt face, trunnion, locking piece, rollers,

<O:p</O:p
Now, what was changed in the system when the back of the bolt was ground? What critical wear points were addressed and repaired by grinding the rear of the bolt head?<O:p</O:p
<O:p
Nothing. Absolutely nothing in the critical locking system was changed. The critical relationships of the parts in the locking system are exactly the same as they were, before the bolt was ground. The fact that there was little or no gap prior to the bolt grinding, was an indicator that something was wrong in the bolt locking system of the rifle.

There is one case that grinding the bolt may have fixed, but in an incorrect method. If the gap was a zero and the rollers were loose in the trunnion, grinding the bolt would allow the LP to go farther forward and press the rollers out, locking the bolt in place. This would be a very extreme example of an out of tolerance weapon.
<O:p
<O:p
In fact, in an even more extreme case, with a ground bolt it could get bad enough that the front of the locking piece bottoms on the bolt head, and the bolt is not locked. The rollers would be loose, and you would have a “good to go” gap reading. Granted, you would have to grind a bunch to reach that point, but why take the chance?<O:p
<O:p
By grinding the back of the bolt, you are gaining a false wear reading, and a false sense of security. Since the only way to measure wear in the bolt system is to measure gap, and Century knew that, they gave you an apparent “good” gap.<O:p</O:p
<O:p

Now, what can we do to see what the actual gap is? Two options.<O:p</O:p</O:p

Install a known, good OAL bolt head. Measure gap.<O:p</O:p
Measure your ground bolt, and subtract the difference from the measured gap. Why would this work? Because in order to get a factual measurement of your gap, you have to take into account the material removed. The gap measurement is based on having correctly dimensioned parts. Without taking into account the material removed from the rear of the bolt, you are not getting a true indication of the current condition of the rifle. Can I repeat that enough?So now I find my ground bolt rifle has little or no gap, how can I fix it?
<O:p
According to the HK manual, you can replace the bolt head, locking piece and rollers. Larger rollers reduce the distance the LP has to travel; they reach the sides of the trunnion cut-outs sooner. A new LP serves the same purpose, reducing the space between the rollers and trunnion. The bolt head can wear on the face, or the inside of the windows for the rollers.
If that doesn’t get you into spec, you are looking at pressing the barrel and or replacing the trunnion. The barrel press method is not mentioned in the manual, but you have to remember we are dealing with used parts, that are reassembled into working rifles. And finding a new trunnion will be difficult at best.<O:p
<O:p
“But my CETME with a ground bolt and “good” gap runs fine, cycles like it should, why spend more money on it??"
</O:p</I>
<O:p</O:p
That answer is up to you. If you are comfortable with a weapon that is out of spec, (according to CETME and HK), and aren’t worried about 50,000 psi (or more with commercial loads) next to your face that may or may not be contained, then by all means shoot to your hearts content. The purpose of this is to explain why grinding a bolt does not “fix” your rifle in any way, shape, or form.

Here is the bottom line.

If you have a new CETME or HK, properly assembled with new parts, and are starting with "x amount" of bolt gap, monitoring that gap can tell you when something changes, or wears. Then you can get in there and see what has changed. It is nothing more than a "health" indicator for your rifles critical operating parts.

Starting with a ground bolt, your entire frame of reference is skewed from the get go.


<O:p</O:p</O:p

[jfowl31]

My only critique is the thing about the gap being too high resulting in case head separations, and big recoil on too low...

Its also a danger to have case separations if the gap is too low because they stay in the chamber too long and when they get stuck, the head can get ripped off.

I could be off there though... I'll let the more informed and seasoned vets decide exactly what should be put in there...

What I DO like about it Tex is that its an easy read for ANYONE... not just the gunnut who loves everything technical and engineering and all that... the average joe could read that and comprehend enough about the system to make his/her own decision. And they can pursue the idea further and read the more specific technical specs on HK PRO and other places.

i like it... I say we come up with a bunch of different sources to cite as well... and maybe a few statements from some gunsmiths about the issue too so its not just a bunch of guys assuming its bad.... its actually qualified professionals saying its bad, and then maybe we wont have the "drakejakes" who say we dont know what we're talking about.

[Darkwatch]

And a new sticky is born:icon_smile:

[texlurch]

My comments on the recoil issues are from my experience; small gap makes the thing kick, and slows down the bolt enough to cause extraction problems.

But I probably need to ammend that; the respective gap doesn't tell you where exactly in the trunnion pocket the rollers are sitting.

I was also trying to keep opinions out of it, just state how the system works, show some examples, and let people see the light. I think with Perro's video of the bolt/barrel relationship, it would be a decent start....

[texlurch]

Went back and edited the part about possible problems.....

[jfowl31]

I like it this way (after the edit)... the recoil and different problems seem to be more specific than just big or small bolt gap. A lot of different variables can go into play as far as what causes what, and a combination of 2 causes this... so just alist of bad stuff can deter anyone from shooting an out of spec rifle.

[jfowl31]

here's what I replied in the "ground bolt" thread on gunboards... Feel free to use any wording you like... or none... just thought Id throw it out there... we can get all the info here and clean it up for another thread or something.

man starting a forum is kinda fun... I always seem to jump into these things after all you oldtimers have been here for years... now I get to be a "future old-timer whos been here since the beginning."

anyways, here's my thoughts... I havent read this in a whil, so I dont know how well its written.

Since this is a sticky, I feel I need to reply to it so that newbies dont read it and think that what Drakejake did was acceptable by any means. Heres why its unsafe... in addition to masking wear.

Bolt Gap is a measurement which indicates where the rollers are along the locking piece. a high Bolt gap means that the rifle will unlock very fast, as the rifle is just barely into battery, and the gap is left wide open. a low bolt gap means the rifle is well into battery, will take more time to unlock, chamber pressures will be slightly higher, recoil will be less as more pressure is used to unlock the bolt. a bolt gap out of spec on the high end doesnt allow the bolt to sufficiently lock into battery, which eans HIGH recoil, and very fast wearing of parts. Out of spec BG on the low end means that the timing is too slow, and pressures get too high in the chamber, which is why case head separations are common with low BG's... the high pressure is unsafe obviously, and an explosion COULD happen over time as the chamber wears... you get the point.

The REASON grinding a bolt is BAD: It masks the fact that parts are out of spec/worn. By grinding the bolt head, it allows the gap to be bigger, but doesnt not change anything about the timing of the rifles system. All it does is allow a feeler guage to go between the carrier and bolt, the rollers are still in the same place along the LP because the material was taken off the back end of the bolt.

The reason it doesnt change anything about the timing is THIS: The Cetme bolt design does NOT head space like a normal rifle. in fact it doesnt really headspace at all. the bolt face is tight up against the chamber EVERY time, so the headspace is the same EVERY time. technically there is no Headspace on a Cetme or HK. Its just a chamber with a bolt face up against it. changing you bolt gap doesnt change headspace because there is no headspace. changing your Bolt gap changes where the rollers are along the locking piece. Since the bolt is in the same position Every Single time it slams home, the rollers are in the same place as well since they are always the same distance off the bolt face. Adding larger rollers changes bolt gap because they are larger therefor they dont have to press out as far to reach the walls on the trunnion, which makes the locking piece not be able to wedge as far between them so the gap is larger. adding a new locking piece gets rid of worn spots in the old locking piece which does not allow it to wedge as deep into the bolt head, thus increasing boltgap. replacing a worn bolt head reduces slop created by the rollers pressing hard against the walls of the slots which they come out of, which can allow the LP to slide further between them, which reduces bolt gap, so replacing with a new one increases gap.

The main thing to see is THIS: bolt gap is not important because its a gap... its not a cushion of gap which most people think at first sight... bolt gap is a measurement that tells you what stage the bolt group is in. By grinding the back of the bolt, a false measurement is given. It makes it seem as though a rifle is in spec when actually grinding the back of the bolt does nothing to change anything about the rifle except how big of a gap is between the bolt and carrier.

Hopefully this will help out others who come to the form, and read the stickies.

Drakejake was convinced that his rifle was safe, and thats his choice, because its his rifle and his face if it ever does finally wear out enough to explode. But there is a reason that manuals, Cetme armories, and HK experts/gunsmiths/armories all give the same information on how to alter bolt gap. And doesnt it seem a little odd that Century Arms is the only ones who say its ok to grind a bolt...............

If you have a ground bolt, you are not required to get a new one. You can measure it, and compare it to the nominal bolt head length of 1.835". If your bolt measures 1.827", you need to subtract .008" from your bolt gap reading to get an "actual" bolt gap. so if your bolt measures 1.827", your new "spec" for bolt gap is .012" to .028".

If anyone has any questions about how to fix or attack a problem or has any questions on how to check anything on these rifles, PLEASE start a thread and ask your question. And dont be discouraged and think that its going to be "multiple hundreds" of dollars to fix. Most problems are easily fixed on these rifles at a very low cost. Good luck and Happy Shooting to you all.

[texlurch]

I would take the headspace part out. Headspace is a measurement from the front to the rear of the chamber. Doesn't mean a gap between the bolt and chamber, so there is a "headspace" measurement in a CETME. Problem with this system is the chamber can be short, or the bolt face short, and part of the case can be unsupported, but the gun will still lock up. Or you can have the bolt hitting the trunnion, and have a gap. But that is a different issue from the ground bolts.

If you are curious and have NATO headspace gauges, put a GO gauge in the chamber, and check the gap. Then put a NOGO or FIELD and recheck. The gap should increase.

[Simon]

i have nothing saved post wise
they got everything unfortunately.

ill try and make another really good video for everyone, but not sure when - work REALLY sucks for me right now
They got your videos too? I think I still have some of the AK stuff saved.

edit:
You and Rick did two videos on flat bending and a video on trigger guard riveting, right? I've got those, the cross sectioned trunnion video, and the CETME barrel pressing video. Send me a PM if you need any of those.

[jfowl31]

The part about headspace was in there because Drakejake kept talking about headspace this and headspace that... That was one of the first giveaways that he didnt know jack about the system.

I put it in there to show that headspace is a measurement of the chamber length, and since the bolt face is right up against the barrel face every time (well at least until your gap gets WAAAY too high) that headspace only changes from wear in the chamber and not from wear on the bolt.

we need to at least put something in there about headspace because your average person when they think of wear on a rifle... they think of headspace. And thats not whats being checked on a Cetme/HK. A typical semi-auto bolt doesnt wear very much because of the gas system... they lock up, gas pushes them back... nothing too violent. A roller-locked system has afew spots that take a pounding every time the rifle is shot..... THOSE aare the spots that bolt gap gives you an indication of.

[texlurch]

Simon, those would be good to have in the AK section...

[texlurch]

Jfowl, I went back and added a comment on headspace and bolt face wear... but I still think that the whole headspace fur ball needs a seperate thread. I don't personally feel that headspace and bolt gap are tied together. Yes, gap can be an indicator of a change in head space, but there are so many different wear points in there that no single one can be pulled out and shown as "the one".

But if you have a new CETME or HK, and are starting with "x amount" of bolt gap, monitoring it can tell you something is changing, and then you can dig in and see what is happening in there. Starting with the ground bolt, your entire frame of reference is skewed.

Say... that is pretty good... may have to add that in there...

[rustypirate]

Jfowl, here is my take on the headspace vs bolt gap thing.

Headspace is a measurement of the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt. This measurement is important because in a bolt action gun, or most other rotating bolt locking mechanisms, the locking lugs are staticly fixed to the bolt, and as the bolt locking lugs wear, this distance inside the chamber increases. Because the measuement is inside of the mechanism, and not readily accessable, headspace guages are the only way to get any idea of how much wear has occured, and how it affects the ability of the bolt to support the cartridge.

The bottom line is that checking headspace on a rifle is simply a means to determine if the bolt locking lugs have worn past the point of safely engaging the receiver and supporting the cartridge.

On the roller locked system, the locking lugs are not fixed to the bolt head, but are mobile. What this means is that you can no longer maesure the distance inside of the chamber because of the movement of the locking rollers in relation to the bolt head. A different means of measuring the wear on the locking mechanism had to be determined. The designers of the CETME and G3 rifles figured out that they could measure the distance between the bolt head and the bolt carrier when the bolt was locked into a trunion with an EMPTY chamber. While some wear does occur to the inside of the chamber and the face of the bolt head, this wear is miniscule compared to the material lost at the roller/trunion/bolt head/locking piece junction, which is how the roller locked system locks the bolt head into the trunion. Measuring the bolt gap quantifies the changes in relationship between the parts that receive the most signifigent wear.

The bottom line is that bolt gap is simply a MEASURABLE INDICATOR of the wear on the parts that perform the bolt head locking on a roller locked bolt system.

[M1 Tanker]

I'll read all this later today. If we are going to sticky anything, I will have to cut all the the jib jab :)

[texlurch]

I'll read all this later today. If we are going to sticky anything, I will have to cut all the the jib jab :)


Feel free to cut and paste! No copyright problems from me! :stupids:

[Perro]

let me redo this please
on MY terms
with a video

the video will answer everything and make things clear

problem at the moment for me though, i just got sent to take over swing shift. both of my general foreman drug up last week, and 2 crews completely drug up and quit - ive been sent to night shift to try and mop up. dont know how long ill be there, but thats where im at

work is FUBAR for me right now



Mike

[jfowl31]

I don't think anyones in a real hurry Perro, I just really enjoyed reading your comments over on cetmerifles, and it was well put, and easy to read, yet VERY informative.

about the bolt gap/ headspace... we're all on the same page... the only reason I put that in my original thoughts were because Drakejake kept using the WORD "headspace" to talk about the wear on his rifle... I know how they are related and not related and all that. That little part was put in there to get him to stop using that word when talking about bolt gap.

That thread you were writing on the technical forum on the "old" forum was turning out really good Perro... I read it about 50 times and you werent even done with it yet.

I do think all this needs to be cleaned up maybe into just 1 very informative post, instead of all the jib jab and speculation. I think headspace should maybe only be mentioned to let every new guy know that this a whole different animal, and that you can't check for spec in the rifle with regular headspace gauges, like Im sure many think they can when they first check one of these out.

[texlurch]

I found it interesting that HK mentions headspace along with bolt gap in their manual: "Head space is correct when bolt gap measures .004-.020"

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=103


Not that we need to add any more confusion to these things... ! LOL!!!

[Perro]

the way i learned this bolt system was by taking a junk trunnion and barrel and cutting it in half
i then cast a bolt head out of clear resin so i could see what was happening inside of the bolt head at all stages
i threw the bolt head away a long time ago like a dummy, but i dont think the camera would show the detail anyway
so, i need to find a worn out bolt head and section it like i did the trunnion and barrel and find a junker locking piece and worn out rollers.
then i can paint each of them a different color and you will easily be able to see what i saw on camera when i was using my clear resin bolt head.

i can effectively explain headspace on a cetme/hk with a video and this setup, and bolt gap, and my theory on how both really are tied together, but different.
it is something i had planned to touch upon with my headspace tutorial, but since that is long gone, ill need to start over - would be better with video anyway cause if you can see it how i see it, it will all make much better since

by doing that ill be able to explain things much better anyway cause i dont have to type - will take less time to present it etc etc

it will take me a while to get to it though.

headspace is important to understand
reguardless of what other people say, it IS directly related to bolt gap, and i can explain this on video much easier than paper.
it is not the same, but with MY theory, having the wrong bolt gap gives you the wrong headspace, and i think i can show this with a video.
i fully understand hunting guides theory, and can explain it as well, but show you how to accomplish it with an over the counter available depth micrometer. I can show you how to correct headspace on a new build, what happens when you press the barrel into the trunnion at different depths - i can explain ALL of it.


it will take me time though, dont expect this video anytime soon

[QuickDrawMcGraw]

let me redo this please
on MY terms
with a video

the video will answer everything and make things clear

problem at the moment for me though, i just got sent to take over swing shift. both of my general foreman drug up last week, and 2 crews completely drug up and quit - ive been sent to night shift to try and mop up. dont know how long ill be there, but thats where im at

work is FUBAR for me right now



MikePerro, Sounds like a bad case of the REDASS !!! Things are kinda slow here in NH , whats the wait on your Book 2 look like??

Chuck #490 NH

[texlurch]

The video will be worth the wait, I'm sure.

The old cut-away one showing the effects of barrel pressing demonstrated it very well.

From my point of view, most people should be able to look at diagrams and pics, and understand the relationship of the parts, and why grinding off the rear of the bolt doesn't make much sense.

Then you have the few hard heads that refuse to understand why a company would assemble a rifle in that manner.

We should at least change the title of this thread to something related to ground bolts, so newbies can find it in a search.

[Perro]

Perro, Sounds like a bad case of the REDASS !!! Things are kinda slow here in NH , whats the wait on your Book 2 look like??

Chuck #490 NH

its far worse than redass unfortunately - it hurts my head to even think about it.

the job im on is just full of suprises lately, and management cant do enough to f$*% it up.

i went to nights to try and salvage whats left of a once tight knit outstanding crew that is now nothing but a huge train wreck!

walk through for us at the moment - not sure about book 2

[gunner]

Being a newbie to the Cetme and roller block system , I cannot wait for Perro's video, whenever it comes out. Which thread has the vid of pressing in the barrel properly?

[eec4tuner]

I'll keep an eye open for the vid. I found perro's tutorials very informing.