Blackthorn/Vulcan/Hesse

[LCPL 4]

A2 kit. Ordered it Saturday evening. $409 shipped. Came in today via UPS. 6 days for delivery.

It was boxed up as shown in picture. Newspaper used as packaging material. Entire upper is covered in a layer of oil except for hanguards. It appears to have been fired at least once from looking inside and from marks on finish where lower would have been pinned. Here's the pics as promised. Wish I could do better but I'm not a pro photographer.

Will be a few weeks before I can assemble. Waiting on lower. If anybody else wants more pics of certain areas or items let me know. Will provide more info once assembled, check headspace, and get her to the range. Will give a thumbs up or down then. So far, nothing to complain about but not much to do till lower comes in.

Lower comes in at $95. Two mags will magpul followers was $25. Total so far $529. Next up will be a .22 conversion kit and mags. Say around $180. Should put me back to $709. She'll be more of a plinker than anything else.

[Alaskagrown]

is that a forging mark on the right side of the upper in front of he rear sight? if so what is the mark of?

[LCPL 4]

It appears to be an AF mark. the only thing I found that may list it is http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/uppers/ which lists it as Bushmaster. I have no knowledge of forge marks so that's my best quess from a GIS.

Just asked experts at ar15.com... we'll see.

Edit -

Looking closely at http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/uppers/colt_flattop_proofmarks.jpg the AF looks exactley the same but there is no C. So Alcoa Forge is my quess now (who make uppers for Colt)... still not sure.

[mrbgt]

how's the stake job ? everything looks pretty good.

[LCPL 4]

Can't find an allen wrench to fit just yet but I'm unimpressed ...

[jfowl31]

Is this assembled yet???

Im ready to see how it functions for you.

[Hoot]

I built their A3 Flat Top. Was going to get the Varminter, but decided a 20" heavy barrel would suit my needs.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~hill195/AR%20Pix/blackthorne.jpg

The fit and finish were fine and it went together easier than I expected. No bag over my head or umbrella, just common sense and some punches. With the Superior Arms lower it is just tight enough without being so tight you need to scrape up the coating to get it closed. No wobble in any plane. As for the booming aftermarket industry, I swapped out the A2 front sight block for a low profile one with a single top rail, G27 grip and something I always wanted to try, a Lavang Linear Compensator. I'm enjoy tinkering with muzzle brake designs and the linear compensator always intrigued me. I finished up with a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40 on rock-of-gibraltar high rings. This is not for tactical use or to impress the kiddies. I was just hoping for a good paper puncher and varminter, though I can pull the scope off and put on a carry handle and buis if I choose. The finish inside the chrome-moly barrel was fine, but wishing to get accurate ASAP, I lead-slug lapped the barrel.

At the range, with some surplus ammo, I was really disappointed with the accuracy off of my bench rest setup. Somewhere around 2-3 MOA. I saved the brass though and reloaded it with some components I had left over from my .22-250 prairie dog rig. Back to the range and much better results!

Here's two 100 yard groups, one with and one without the Levang:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~hill195/AR%20Pix/ar_100yd_2.jpg

Here's five shots at 100 yards moving the gun in between shots to five targets:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~hill195/AR%20Pix/ar_100yd_1.jpg

I also reloaded some Hornady 68gr BTHP behind 22 gr of 3031, but the grouping opened back up to 2-3 MOA. I was hoping to reload some more this morning with different charge amounts and see if I could get better groups, but looking out the window at the threes whipping in the wind squashed that idea. There's a big show today at the fair grounds and I may go there for a while. I'd like to get some peel washers to tune the Levang better for the barrel.

For a $465 gun, I'm very happy with my investment. The one thing I thought was cheesy was they coated the gun after installing the original FSB and when I removed it to put on the low profile railed one, there was bare metal under it. I don't know if the high-priced ones are done that way also, but I wished they had coated it before installing the FSB. I mean how much cost would it have added? :thelook:

I highly recommend the Blackthorne for someone who doesn't need proud flesh bragging rights and is not sure they want to sink a month's house payment on a caliber they're not sure they'll like after being a large-bore fan like myself.

Hoot

[k98k792]

Good going Hoot!

Say, isn't proud flesh infected tissue? I don't get the reference in this case.

[Hoot]

Good going Hoot!

Say, isn't proud flesh infected tissue? I don't get the reference in this case.

In some circles, "Proud Flesh" is a play on words when comparing who has the biggest or best Johnson It's never funny when you have to explain the pun... :533:

Hoot

[k98k792]

Ok . Got it now. Sorry.

[LCPL 4]

No range report as of yet. Ciener .22 conversion kit is in but lower is not. Waiting on an EA lower which may be another 2 to 3 weeks out. I could probably get another brand down the road today but I'm partial to EA being from Louisiana and all.


I highly recommend the Blackthorne for someone who doesn't need proud flesh bragging rights and is not sure they want to sink a month's house payment ....

Count me in that group but add 2 kids, a wife, a dog, etc.

[mrbgt]

well after seeing your blackthorn rifles i couldn't resist the price ,my order was placed for an a3 20''.it'll go on a double star lower that is real lonely. i should have under $550 in it ,i doubt it'll out shoot my m&a parts middy but if its close i'll be happy

[LCPL 4]

Finally started putting her together Friday evening. Everything went together without a hitch except for the trigger guard. Putting the roll pin, I broke an ear off. :wallbash: I was so friggin pissed with myself that I put it down and didn't pick it up again till yesterday afternoon. Live and learn. Just me eaten up with a case of the dumbass. Back together with aluminum quick set epoxy for now. :wallbash: You can probably make out the crack from the pic.

I also didn't go with an Essential Arms lower. I decided to go with an Anvil Arms for a few bucks more - $114 shipped. Plus $20 for transfer at local pawn shop. Comes with laser engraving. The look of the lower is excellent in my opinion. Mags went in smooth.
Accuracy report hopefully soon ...

[Hoot]

Finally started putting her together Friday evening. Everything went together without a hitch except for the trigger guard. Putting the roll pin, I broke an ear off...snip
My heart goes out for you. :icon_cry: I don't know about anyone else, but I've had a project go smooth beyond my wildest expectations, only to have what should have been a gimme step near the end, result in disaster.:cry2: It really puts the term "self-loathing" into perspective. I gotta say though, I like that laser job on the mag well. Hang in there...

Hoot

[mrbgt]

thats a sweet looking lower ,i had to choose between a double star and a superior .the superior was $6 cheaper but the superior logo is huge and the serial #and caliber were unevenly stamped so i went doublestar ,which looks pretty sweet . i wish you luck fixing your lowers ear ,you may be able to use some kind of solder on it

[spystyle]

is that a forging mark on the right side of the upper in front of he rear sight? if so what is the mark of?

I can hardly see it in the pics, but it looks like a "cardinal forge" mark to me. I have an AR15 built from a BlackThorne kit with a cardinal forge upper:

http://tinyurl.com/2c2nyk

I really like it!

I'm not trying to sound like a spokesman for BlackThorne, but I have quite a rifle for $505. YMMV - I'm not sure if they will continue putting out great parts kits or if they are only doing it to get a good initial reputation... Hesse had a really bad rep in the past.

Apparently Cardinal Forge is of a high pedigree, I read across the net that they are used in RRA, Bushmaster, DPMS and Rock River.

Happy Shooting,
Craig

[jlpskydive]

That's good to hear I have been wanting to pull the trigger on one of their 7.62 AR uppers.

[jfowl31]

its still hit or miss in my opinion... if you read the GIANT thread over at ARFCOM, a lot of guys are still getting crappy workmanship, and stuff like that... I think Id probably take a chance on one of the cheaper kits or uppers, but I dont think Id dump any kind of real money into them.... it is still Hesse after all.

I was soooooooooo tempted to go with them for my upper, but I ended up getting just as good a deal from a reputable builder with a much better barrel, and the peace of mind that Ill have good customer service should I need it. If you shop around and call some of the smaller guys, you can usually get pretty close to the same deal the Crapthorne is giving with good service to boot. AND youre not dumping your money into a company that will probably have a new name in a couple years. You think his stuff is cheap now, just wait til you try to sell that upper/rifle, and say his name... you wont be able to give the stuff away.

as always YMMV, just dont let the cheap price blind you that its still a company known for ripoffs and scandals.

[mrbgt]

i've read all the bad about hesse/blackthorne ,but i've also read all the bad about century cetme rifle's . the ar platform is easier to build,and easier to get working.as long as i get what i ordered and it is functional and looks decent i'll be happy .if some minor issues pop up, i ordered my kit knowing i'd probably be on my own .i've got a great middy from m&a parts and wasn't planning on building another rifle until i seen the price of their kit. hell the hole kit, price wise, is what many places are selling just the upper for. i'm not telling others to chance it ,but for the price i did.

[LCPL 4]

You are right J. It's a gamble. Like the song says - "Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger; sometimes you're the ball."

[spystyle]

I guess we won't know if BlackThorne is going to continue to sell quality products at competitve prices until they have been doing it for a few years. Right now they are probably trying to build a good repuation.

I think "Model 1 sales" would only be about $100 more.

I'm a gambler myself, I bought the BlackThorne kit and got a great gun. I lucked out - I did not need to reurn anything or deal with their customer support.

I personally feel that all things "AR15" are 3X more expensive than they should be. If a company would start importing complete Chinese made AR15's (sans lower receiver, ofcourse, which I think would be legal) and marketed them heavily; the price on all AR things would drop like a rock. The problem now is there is no considerable competition.

If "value" is defined as "getting allot compared to the amount of money spent" than AR15 and it's accessories are the absolue worst value in firearms today (Mosin Nagant being the best?)

What the market needs is China's competition. Then consumers would win. You could debate against Chinese products but they are here to stay - except in firearms - because of that stupid ban. When we can import in mass quanities for low price buyers get an excellent value and sellers have to price things competitvely. Buyers win.

Manufacturers may lose jobs but they can go into different fields - humans can adapt. An example would be : In WW2 many car manufacturer's converted their factories into tank factories very quickly. The Sten sub machine gun was produced at a toy factory.

A good example of bad value is gasoline - imagine if China could manufacture gasoline? We wouldn't be paying more than $3 per gallon at the pumps. Probably less than $1.

Yup, I'll get flamed for the above, but I like a good value.

Though I love my AR15 anyway! But I can't afford to build it a brother (not without screwing my own customers, to whom I give a good value instead)

All of the above is just my opnion and not said to raise pulses.

Happy shooting,
Craig

[jfowl31]

Comparing it to a CIA Cetme is kinda sorta right... except Hesse has a MUCH worse reputation than CIA... You tell anyone youve bought a Century rifle, and they say, "well, its better than Hesse, thats for sure..."

bigger gamble IMO than CIA products, but if youve got the knowhow to fix it all, then by all means have at it.

Me personally, I dont know CRAP about AR platforms, so Ill stick to a good builder with quality products, AND... get this....... I got my Varmint upper CHEAPER than Blackthorne! If you shop around a bit and write some e-mails... good things happen. Hesse's not the only good deal out there folks. In fact IMO, Hesse's not a good deal at all... I paid less money for a product that I will be confident in with good customer service.

and once again... YMMV.

[spystyle]

Where did you buy yours? I've scoured the net and couldn't beat BT price, M1 was in second place.

[jfowl31]

I e-mailed around a few places and got my upper from William Snelling at the Tannery Shop for $450 shipped, where I was gonna pay more than that from Blackthorne... mainly becuase my upper comes with bolt/carrier, bipod stud, and a Wilson barrel... as opposed to his which comes with a no-name barrel, no stud, and no bolt and carrier for $300 + shipping... after the bolt/ carrier, and getting the stud done somewhere, and shipping, I would have been over $450 from Blackthorne. I found plenty of places that were VERY comparablein pricing... it helps if you e-mail and ask what you can get something for. Sometimes what they list on the web site is just a starting point, and if you call or e-mail you can get a better deal.

I was able to pick and choose components on my upper as opposed to just getting whatever parts are next on the list... all my upper components are Colt, DPMS, LMT, and CMT... and the barrel is a match-grade Wilson, and I was able to choose my own twist rate.

As always, mayb I got lucky, or maybe its only applicable with varmint uppers that those prices are beatable, but from what else I spoke with William about, I dont think Im an exception.

He'll be building a buddy of mine a 6.8 SPC upper in a couple weeks for $400 shipped...

off to work... if youre in the Austin area, avoid the southbound lanes like the plague if you know whats good for you!

[jlpskydive]

Does he make 7.62 uppers???

[spystyle]

Are there any markings on a Wilson barrel? I am getting my DPMS multi-tool in the mail soon and will be pulling my barrel to inspect it and install an FF tube.

I was under the impression that I had a Wilson barrel too.

Though Wilson barrels are nothing to brag about. I asked Scott Powers, a real sniper, what he thought of "ER Shaw" barrels, because that is what most of the "kits" ship with. Here is his reply:

(quote)

I've used them in the past on bolt action hunting rifles. They are ok but they would not be my first choice for an AR. Go with Kreiger, Olympic Arms Ultramatch, Douglas, Compass Lake, Rock River Arms or similar. ER shaw would be considered the bargain brand. Kind of like Wilson. I've seen some Wilson shoot well but if total precision is the thing, get either a stainless or non-chrome lined barrel. Anything chrome lined loses accuracy due to inconsistency in the lining.

Scott Powers
Proprietor, Sniper Country PX
www.snipercountrypx.com

(end quote)

Also, you did not beat BT's price. They sell the entire varminter, sans lower, for $450:

http://tinyurl.com/2ft365

Add a $90 Essential Arms lower to that and you've just built a really competitvely priced varminter.

I went with the heavy barreled 20" complete, sans lower, for $369:
http://tinyurl.com/yuex2d

That's quite a deal. I think it's impossible to beat without importing from Norinco.

My completed rig is here:
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24892

Happy shooting,
Craig

[k98k792]

AHA, you own the 505 rifle! I saw that post on there.

[mrbgt]

well, i've got a savage 112 in .223 for my varmit rifle, i just wanted a good 20'' ar plinker. shurluk was the 2nd cheapest i found at about $425 for a 20'' kit the add didn't state who's barrels the use, but since they are in my state add tax with shipping .i used the century comparison simply because when i bought my cetme i was aware of some possible problems.century has been great for all the surplus they import ,most of us would be shooting far less if it wasn't for them.

[spystyle]

I've heard really good things about the Savage, they are said to be super accurate. I almost bought one for my ".223 rig" but decided I wanted something with higher capacity and settled on a heavy barelled AR15.

The "Stevens" is Savage's "no frills" budget rifle that has the same accuracy, only no "accu trigger"

http://www.gunblast.com/Stevens-200.htm

[jfowl31]

I will let you know what kind of groups I get out of mine, but its stainless with no chrome lining, and is supposed to be guaranteed .5-1 MOA... I consider that plenty for a Varmint rig for my tastes.

AND...... I got a good deal on a complete stag lower, so I didnt need the whole kit... I read that most problems people had with the blackthorne kits was a horrendous trigger due to sorry machining on trigger components.

Most people when they hear Wilson think just the normal HBAR barrel... thats not the barrel mine has... its a true match stainless barrel, with the chamber cut from the barrel blank... not just the run of the mill barrel that is bought with the chambers already cut.

I'll let you know if my barrel has any markings once I get it. As well as a full range report of groupings with various commercial and reloads and surplus.

I need to contact William again to double check that the barrel is in fact a Wilson... I could have sworn he told me that, but he also said he just buys barrel blanks and cuts the crown and chamber himself, and I am not 100% sure that Wilson sells blanks, though they probably do.

I didnt want the complete kit from BT, because Ive heard all sorts of crappy info about ER Shaw barrels and how they are totally sub-par for a varmint barrel. I also wanted a good name brand lower so that I could have a nice crisp trigger to swap on any upper I want.

If my budget stays as low as it is now, I might buy one of his cheaper 16 or 20" uppers to put on for plinking and such, but I think Ill probably spend the extra couple bucks to get something I know is quality built from quality parts.

[Hoot]

I had seriously considered the Blackthorne 24" varmint, but since I didn't know what I would get in terms of quality, I went with the 20" A3. With hand loads, it shoots 1 MOA 5 shot groups, but no better. It shoots sub MOA if you got to pick and choose the best three of five shots. I'm no serious benchrest shooter and do not have a shooting vise, so perhaps it is capable of better groups if you can remove the human factor.

WRT customer service at Blackthorne. When they shipped my gun, they mistakenly sent me the A2 instead of the A3 and I would have kept it if I was not going to put a scope on it, but I don't care for the height when an A2 carry handle is adapted for a scope. I called and kept getting the awful voice mail, so I emailed them. Within an hour I had a reply back from Jeff. They paid for UPS to pick up the wrong unit the next day and two days later, the A3 was on my doorstep. I don't know how you can beat that for customer service. The whole customer service experience is highly anecdotal in nature. It seems that no matter what company you bring up in a group discussion. Some people have acceptable (to them) results and some have unacceptable (to them) results. I have been all over the map with customer service results from many different companies, varying from simply horrible to highly commendable.

When I started at the place I now work, everybody told me, "Look out for Arlene, she's a real witch <sp>." I thanked them for their advice, but went into my interaction with Arlene with an open mind, preferring rather to develop my own opinion based upon my results with her. She was very helpful to me and generally a nice person to deal with. Sure, she had her "hot buttons", but then we all do. The point is, while I respect other people's experiences, I refuse to predispose my experience based solely upon their past experiences. I have a bad habit of giving everyone the opportunity to start out on neutral grounds and I take it from there. I have read plenty of accounts of the mistakes Hesse made in the past, and to a greatly lesser degree Vulcan. If I only had my personal experience to go upon with Blackthorne, I'd rate them 5 of 5 stars. I certainly have been around long enough not to assume my experience is the only experience anyone will ever have with them and try hard not to sell my experience with anyone as the only one possible. Too many variables in that equation, starting with the fact that people tend to learn from their mistakes.

I think one of the prices you pay for Backthorne's lower prices is the lack of options available with their value line of products. I would have liked to have gotten a faster twist than 1:9 in their 20" A3. So far, I have not been able to work up a stable 69gr HPBT Match load for it. As a matter of fact, mine definitely likes 55gr better than 62gr as well. I haven't been trying very long and only had a tin of IMR3130 to work with. I just got some other powders and will continue to try to find a 62gr loading that's tighter. The idea is to be able to use surplus SS109 bullets for reloading since they have a better BC than 55gr offerings.

Hoot

[mrbgt]

my savage is a tack driver ,it is the older model ''no accutrigger'' but it is ajustable ,it outshoots me , my 16'' m&a middy shoots under 1moa with winchester white box. i've been very impressed with it! i've found that with my carryhandle scope mount its bullet trajectory is pretty much right on at 100 & 200 yards

[spystyle]

...I went with the 20" A3. With hand loads, it shoots 1 MOA 5 shot groups, but no better...

I don't think you can truly discover what your AR is capable of until you install a free float tube (so the barrel is floating) and shoot it from a vice - or atleast a bipod and rear rest.

I ordered this cheap tube and a DPMS multi-tool to install it:
http://tinyurl.com/28jq23
http://tinyurl.com/2ebepq

It's not here yet...

Also, I don't have a vice but I do have a bipod and a solid scope.

Cheers,
Craig

[spystyle]

my savage is a tack driver ,it is the older model ''no accutrigger'' but it is ajustable ,it outshoots me , my 16'' m&a middy shoots under 1moa with winchester white box. i've been very impressed with it! i've found that with my carryhandle scope mount its bullet trajectory is pretty much right on at 100 & 200 yards


Nice! What scope are you using? There are allot to choose from so you should recommend it by name.

[mrbgt]

i'm useing a simmons 3-9x50 on my ar and an accushot 4-16x5? on my savage .i don't use any fancy optics, usually my scopes are at or under $100.i try to stick with simmons or bushnell ,i've always had good luck with them

[mrbgt]

well like the others i recieved my blackthorne kit 6 working days after i ordered it .everything looks real good. the only low spot is the handguard ,it has some rough spots in it ,but it is functional so no big deal.i also ordered a sling for $5 and a detachable rear sight for $30.the sight is most likely imported and i noticed the battle sight is slightly jagged .i'll slightly ream it to true the circle , it does adjust with solid clicks and looks like it'll work fine,it's a $30 dollar sight so i kinda expected what i got .so far so good ,just got to assemble and put some lead down range .here ya go http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/mrbgt/000_0010.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/mrbgt/000_0006.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/mrbgt/000_0009.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/mrbgt/000_0005.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/mrbgt/000_0004.jpg

[mrbgt]

well i just put it together ...no issues .everything looks good.the fit between the upper and double star lower is pretty good ,not as tight as my m&a parts kit and stag lower ,but it doesn't need a accuwedge .the bolt and carrier are stamped d (dpms??).all in all ,if she shoots good i'm happy .i'll post pics when i get time.

[mrbgt]

well ,i put some ammo down the pipe today, i tried shooting the new wolf with the silver cases and had a couple jams ,bolt was locked about 75% into battery .i put 4 rds of remington hp thru it to check the brass it functioned perfectly .i did notice quite a few marks in the brass ,looks like the chamber is a little rough ,i'll have to break out the polish.here's a pic http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/mrbgt/0044.jpg

[mrbgt]

well good news , i think i figured out why my rifle had some jams .i found my bolt stop was binding ,i lubed the hell out of it and wiggled it back and forth a couple dozens times . when i assembled it , the stop wouldn't go in the lower ,i filed it and thought i took enough off, but i was wrong. i put 30 rds of wolf through it today ,and it ran like a champ :thumbup: