Century / Wiselite M53 at Knob Creek

[Big Steve]

I got to check out 2 of the prototypes at the creek this weekend. The receivers are really nice. The welds and finish sanding are all done top notch also. Tony from Wiselite was there and is a great guy, very open minded and was very interested in every one's ideas and opinions on things. He still has some issues in the bolt carrier / firing pin area. And also in the grip stick. But he got lots of advice from myself and a couple of guys from the MG42 board. One of the guys, Gordie K. seems to be really sharp on these things and has a firing pin design that I am trying to get a look at to understand it better. But he claims it is really a good deal and will not slam fire and will operate just fine with an AR trigger group. Pirate from MG42 was also there to try to help him out too. Tony was really excited that every one was eager to help and told me that the all the advise he got more than paid for his trip to the KCR shoot. These guns are really going to happen but everyone needs to be patient because there is still a lot of R&D and testing to do to make sure they will be reliable when they go out. What Century needs to do now is go out in the world and find some more cheap ammo so the customers will have something to shoot in them when they finally deliver them!
Steve :machinegun:

[Rampager]

That's great to hear! I got one on order. I'd rather wait as long as it takes to get it right. I was starting to wonder if this was really gonna happnen.

+1 on tha ammo...I'm ok on 8mm for a good while, but I think the current lack of 8mm will deter a lot of guys from getting these unless something comes through.

[Big Steve]

I think that 7.62X 39 will be the most available because they are making lots of new stuff in russia and will have to flood the market at some point. It would be a real easy conversion I think if you could get barrels made for it.
I even think the bolt heads would work even though the 39 case rim is a little smaller if the extractor was ground to set a little tighter I think it would eject. As for belts I just went out and snapped a 39 round in a DMI belt and it fits snug as a bug. Humm! this really has me thinking now. What kind of a barrel could we modify to screw into a MG42 barrel extension? MG 42 barrels are a 27X1.5 mm thread. So if you wanted to thread another barrel you would need it to be at least right at 1 1/16. I have a bunch of barrel extensions that I bought one time when I was going to make some 8mm barrels. The barrels are cut off with a torch and would make a great threaded bushing if I could find a barrel that was smaller but still long enough. Does any one have a RPK or a RPD that they could measure the barrel on? It needs to be at least 20 7/8 in long. Any other long barrel 7.62X39 barrels anyone can think of???
Steve

[Perro]

how about an enfield barrel?
Same diameter bullet right?
face off the end and recut a chamber for 39mm?
its LONG enough, not sure about diameter

what about a vickers barrel? samey samey - extra long, not sure of dia. off top of my head

bren barrels have to be as large in DIA as a 42 due to the quick change part

[IMBLITZVT]

Sounds good.

a 7.62*39 MG42... What kind of pink-o commie idea is that???

Thats like the .223 MP44 that Perro wants :)

[weasel_master]

Sounds good.

a 7.62*39 MG42... What kind of pink-o commie idea is that???

Thats like the .223 MP44 that Perro wants :)

I thought he wanted an AR in 7.92 mm Kurz. ;)

[Big Steve]

how about an enfield barrel?
Same diameter bullet right?
face off the end and recut a chamber for 39mm?
its LONG enough, not sure about diameter

what about a vickers barrel? samey samey - extra long, not sure of dia. off top of my head

bren barrels have to be as large in DIA as a 42 due to the quick change part
I looked at bullets on Midways site. .303 brit and 7.7 jap range from .3105 to .312 All their 7.62X39 bullets are .310 But another site I was on said that most russian AKs are .311 or .312 So I think a 303 barrel would work fine as we ain't building tack drivers here.
I saw Bren barrels at Sarco for $65 Anyone see a price for Vickers or Enfield barrels?
Steve

[weasel_master]

A vickers barrel will run around $100 if I recall.

[Big Steve]

You got a barrel with your Vickers kit didn't you Ryan? How about laying it along side one of your 42 barrels and see if there's enough metal there to use one as a blank. Remember that it will have to be re-chambered so we will probably lose from the back of the barrel probably forward to where the 303 case starts to neck down. It will have to be cut off there.
By the way your part is in the mail.
Tanker or Imblitzvt, don't you guys have Bren barrels? Hows about looking at them for me?
I don't think that the size just ahead of the barrel ext is that big of a deal. If it is smaller I think a ring could be pressed on there making it the right size. As all that does is guide the barrel into the right place when you close the barrel door.
Steve

[IMBLITZVT]

Sorry Steve, No bren Barrels. But I do know Omega weapons has $55 vickers 303 barrels.

I got to wonder if a 7.62*39 will have enough power to work the bolt? Think about that... That bolt is designed to stay locked for the full size round. Now you go putting a mid size round in it, I am not sure it will work?

[Perro]

Sorry Steve, No bren Barrels. But I do know Omega weapons has $55 vickers 303 barrels.

I got to wonder if a 7.62*39 will have enough power to work the bolt? Think about that... That bolt is designed to stay locked for the full size round. Now you go putting a mid size round in it, I am not sure it will work?

a mg42 works exactly like a browning 1919 - the barrel recoils until the bolt is unlocked

how exactly is that accomplished?? think about this for a bit

how do they convert an 8mm gun which is MUCH more powerful to work with .308 in there mg3 conversion??

an 8mm bolt works fine with .308 right?? WHY does it work fine??


because of the booster and the cup you numbskull!! I thought you were an engineer or something :087: :icon_biggrin: (kidding)

[Perro]

and wheres my parts kit?? i want to play with it!!

[weasel_master]

What parts kit did you get now? I'll check my vickers barrel against the '42 one in the morning. They're in two different places right now.

[Perro]

steve - a vickers barrel WILL work - its almost like it was MADE for it

it is 1.195 inch at the thick part of the barrel behind the square locking interface

and .303 is SOOOOOO close to a 39mm all it will take is facing the vickers barrel so that the chamber reamer passes the neck of the 303 thats cut into the barrel - does that make sense?

the 303s neck is longer than a 39mm - you will need to face off enough so that the chamber reamer goes past where the neck is cut for the 303 in the vicky barrel

it will work easy - probably your best bet

develop the cup and booster and you should be fine - you can probably use a 308 mg3 cone? possibly thread inserts into the holes in the cup and reduce the diameter of them holes a bit to cause more back pressure?

[Perro]

read this whole article - skip through the 223 mouse round crap and at the bottom you will read about converting an enfield to 39mm

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/no4223/index.asp

[kevin]

39mm? WOW

actually there is a guy somewhere in arizona who charges 35 dollars to convert an enfield to 54r,

some guys have kits so they can run 7.62x39, 8mm, .308, .303 and 7.62x54r through their bren.

Im getting one of these m53's from CAI/wiselite, i too will be looking for an alternative now that you cant find inexpensive 8mm anymore.

[Perro]

54r presents its own problems with a mg42
it is a rimmed cartridge, and the mg42 was designed to shoot semi rimmed like 8mm or .308

rimmed carts headspace differently, and i dont think it would work well in a mg42 bolt

the bren shoots a rimmed cart (the .303) so its natural to convert it to 54r

i dont think a 54r conversion would be able to be accomplished with a mg42 - at least not with a standard 42 bolt head

[Big Steve]

Thanks guys! I will get a Vickers barrel coming in the morning if what I am going to test today works out. I am wondering how the 39 round is going to feed in to the barrel with the tip of the bullet starting so far back. I'm going to make some dummy rounds and try it by hand cycling it into a 308 barrel.
Steve

[Big Steve]

Thanks guys! I will get a Vickers barrel coming in the morning if what I am going to test today works out. I am wondering how the 39 round is going to feed in to the barrel with the tip of the bullet starting so far back. I'm going to make some dummy rounds and try it by hand cycling it into a 308 barrel.
Steve
Test concluded! It feeds them in just like any of the other rounds. Doesn't eject them all the time but I think if the extractor was set a little deeper into the bolt (closer to the firing pin hole) it would work fine. It just isn't getting ahold of the case lip strongly enough.
Steve

[M1 Tanker]

Awesome news Steve....with the 7.62 and 8mm drying up, that Roosskkkiiie caliber would be a nice alternative for the 42.

[weasel_master]

Definately. When you start doing conversions, we get first dibs right? ;)

[turbothis]

wow, cool. maybe a group buy to all the needed parts?

[Big Steve]

wow, cool. maybe a group buy to all the needed parts?
If the bolt head works with just a little machining for the extractor the rest is easy except for the barrel. Maybe a bolt on front feed guide for a 308 feed tray and screw in bushings for the booster. From looking at the pics of the Vick barrel that Perro took. It looks like a sleave for the barrel bushing will have to be pressed and sweated to the front end of the barrel. As it does not look like there is enough metal to machine it into the end of the Vick barrel. Does that sound right Perro?
Steve :machinegun:

[weasel_master]

There's not enough meat to machine into. Here's a pic for you.

1589

[Perro]

the barrel will need to be machined and a sleeve soldered on i think. its shy by about .1 inch

this is APPROX. the locations i think you will be parting, and facing the barrel to

there is enough room to machine it flat on the end to press a sleeve onto it if you cut it approx. at the locations i have marked here

you can maybe get even more of the large part of the taper if you part it closer to the chamber end of the barrel. These photos are just an estimate based on a spent 303 shell casing compared to a spent 39 casing. its only approx. but this is where i think you would be best served parting it and facing it from spent shell casings

[Perro]

this is approx. how much you will have to part/face off the chamber end of the barrel to get past the end of the neck of the 303 chambering

if you notice in this picture, the end of the neck / start of the bullet on the 39 is just past the end of the neck on the 303 spent

this conversion will work perfectly if you chamber to this point. The 303 cartridge is smaller in all areas than the 39 mm if its cut at this point so the chambering reamer will be removing metal in all areas - hope that makes sense

[Perro]

same amount transferred to barrels chamber end

[Perro]

and to be honest, it will probably be even less. You have to take into account the amount the cartridge sits into the 42 bolt head

subtract the depth of the cart well in the 42 bolt head from the .6635

[Perro]

and last photo for now

there is plenty of meat to machine it flat to press a sleeve onto it

even if you used the smallest part of the taper, the end of the barrel

the vickers barrel is the PERFECT blank if you ask me.

$50.00 from don bell in new shape too


you guys better order your vicky barrels NOW though cause i know there aint a huge supply of them

[Big Steve]

Thanks Perro! More progress! I took an extractor out of a spare bolt head and milled .030 off the inside edge of it letting it sit closer to the center of the bolt face. Works great! Flips them right out every time. Question: Do you see any problems with the relief in the bolt face being bigger than the end of the 39 case? The barrel will center the case for the firing pin. But do you foresee any problems from pressure. Like splitting a case. I have never seen a case split right in the back. But?? The bolt head could be built up and remachined but then you run into all the hardening and tempering issues. I would worry less with steel cases as they are strong as hell but brass???
Steve

[weasel_master]

Got a link? I thought had one for when I buy parts for a 54r conversion but can't find it.

[Perro]

the back end of a yugo 8mm bullet at the rim is approx .4675
the back end of a wolf 39mm bullet at the rim is approx .443

about .025 thou total diameter which would mean it had 12 and a half thou from each end all the way around smaller than 8mm

i dont think it will be a problem personally, but if it is, just press in a sleeve in the face of the bolt head, and silver solder it - that wont mess up the temper if you silver solder it

re read that article on surplus rifle.com i posted a link to - they silver soldered a sleeve into the enfields bolt face to accomplish the same task

youre only talking about .012 - .013 less around the entire case though

make this happen dude - im in for a conversion!

[Perro]

www.omega-weapons-systems.com (http://www.omega-weapons-systems.com)

[Big Steve]

the back end of a yugo 8mm bullet at the rim is approx .4675
the back end of a wolf 39mm bullet at the rim is approx .443

about .025 thou total diameter which would mean it had 12 and a half thou from each end all the way around smaller than 8mm

i dont think it will be a problem personally, but if it is, just press in a sleeve in the face of the bolt head, and silver solder it - that wont mess up the temper if you silver solder it

re read that article on surplus rifle.com i posted a link to - they silver soldered a sleeve into the enfields bolt face to accomplish the same task

youre only talking about .012 - .013 less around the entire case though

make this happen dude - im in for a conversion!
After checking it out some more I don't think it is an issue. As the only part of the case that could contact the side of the bolt head relief is the rim. The rest of the case is in the barrel and supported fully. I think the only thing pressing a sleeve into the BH would do is help the extractor. And I think I have already solved that problem.
I will get a barrel coming tomorrow. Any ideas on a chamber reamer. I see a ad in Shot Gun News for a guy that rents them. Maybe a rental is the way to go until I get the prototype up and running. How about head spacing it? Any Ideas on that? I can borrow 7.62 X 39 go nogo's from a buddy here. But is it not like trying to head space a Cetme? Since the barrels are all head spaced to the barrel extension. There must be a way to measure from a cartridge or a go-nogo guage to a spot on the barrel extension to set one once you know what that measurement needs to be. Do you think if you measured a .308 go gauge to a spot on the extension on a 308 barrel and set a 7.62X39 go gauge to the same depth on your new barrel it would be right?
Steve

[weasel_master]

I know HCPookie talks about reaming barrels fairly often. I'm sure he can point you in the right direction. I'm at school so don't have his website handy. It's pookieweb or such.

[Perro]

grab a cold one dude - this is gonna be LONG

this is what must be done to accomplish this - forgive if it seems anything but trying to be thorough.

i wish i had a worthy lathe so i could do it and get you the required measurements, but my lathe is too small, and i have big problems with holding tapered items - my lathe isnt anywhere near long enough do this between centers.

i completely understand what needs done, and i could do it if i had a better lathe. Instead ill just give you the steps i would do in order to make this happen - i know you understand most, but in the interest of being thorough, here is what must be done.

1 - buy yourself a 762x39 GO gauge - ask for EUROPEAN spec gauge from manufacturer like manson precision reamers - manson will cut you a european spec gauge - you dont want a saami gauge for this cause you wont be using american made ammo.

2 - break out your depth micrometer - measure the depth of the cartridge well on the 42 bolt head

3 - run your chambering reamer into the vicky barrel and stop when you think you are close - set your stop up to be shy 10 thou or so

4 - CLEAN your chamber well, and then drop the GO gauge into the newly cut chamber - it will be sticking out of the barrel by close to .145 inch

5 - take your depth micrometer and measure exactly how much of the GO gauge is protruding from the face of the chamber

6 - compare that number to the number you got off of your bolt head cart well - it needs to be the same number.

7 - as an example, and this is not precise - your bolt heads cart well is .145 inch deep on a clean bolt head.
you have cut your chamber so that the go gauge is sticking out of the barrel .155 inch
you need to chamber ream another .010 so that the GO gauge is sticking out of the barrel .145 inch and you have perfect headspace to a GO.

Perfect headspace means the GO gauge will be perfectly captive inside of the chamber and the bolt head with no slop. With the GO gauge inside of the chamber, the bolt head must be tight against the barrel making the GO captive with no slop - if the bolt head isnt touching the barrels face with the GO inserted, then headspace is too tight. If the bolt head is touching the barrels face with the go inserted, and there is slop inside that allows the GO to move fore and aft, then the headspace is too loose.
If the bolt is touching the barrel with the GO, and no slop, headspace is perfect on a GO



NEXT

your bolt locks to the barrel extension
when it does so - the bolts face is tight to the barrel face


8 - take your depth mic and measure how far into the extension the face of the 8MM barrel protrudes. save this measurement - as an example lets say the barrel face is 1.43 inches from the back of the trunnion - not precise, but close

9 - unscrew your 8mm barrel from the extension
take your depth mic and set it on the face of the chamber and ram down until the stylus touches the shoulder turned into the barrel that mates up against the barrel extension - lets say this reading is 1.2 inch as an example. record this number

10 turn a shoulder down onto the vickers
set your depth mic on the chambers face, and stylus down to the shoulder. Releive that shoulder until it too reads 1.2 inch

11. turn a relief in between the shoulder, and the area you are threading so that your 60 degrees single pointing tool hits dead air after the thread before it hits the shoulder

12. thread the vicky barrel to the relief just before the shoulder

13. screw the newly threaded vicky barrel into the extension

14. set your depth mic on top of the extension and run the stylus down to the chamber face - if done correctly, this measurement should also be 1.43 inches (same as the 8mm barrel measurement was)




HEADSPACE IS NOT ADJUSTED BY SCREWING THE BARREL IN OR OUT OF THE EXTENSION ON THIS GUN. BOLT LOCKING IS ADJUSTED BY SCREWING THE BARREL IN OR OUT OF THE EXTENSION. HEADSPACE IS ADJUSTED UNTIL THE ROUND IS COMPLETELY CAPTIVE INSIDE OF THE BOLTS FACE AND THE CHAMBER WITH NO SLOP.


not shouting, only trying to emphasize important stuff in caps


here is where it gets confusing though
headspace IS SORT OF affected by how much the barrel is screwed into the barrel extension. If the barrel is not screwed into the extension enough, there will be unsupported brass between the bolt and the chamber and headspace wont be right

if the barrel is screwed into the extension too much, the bolt wont be able to completely lock and your gun will self destruct cause the bolt will release from the extension before its intended to.


just match the shoulder on the vicky barrel from the chambers face to the shoulder on the 8mm barrel from the chambers face, and the bolt locking will be perfect


sorry so long - you know most if not all of this - only trying to be thorough



Mike

[IMBLITZVT]

Got a bad feeling on your package Perro. I think the bitch at the USPS counter did something to it...

Might have to give you a refund if it does not come this week...

[Perro]

Got a bad feeling on your package Perro....

you and me BOTH duder

i was actually going to keep it and use it too - pity

i had plans to try and make the pistol gripped lower work with the OOW BAR - sort of a Colt Monitor clone type of thing


lets hope it makes it

[Big Steve]

That sounds exactly right Perro. Like I said I am going to order a barrel or two tomorrow. I have a big secret project scheduled for next weekend but this is next for sure.
Steve

[Perro]

Got a bad feeling on your package Perro. I think the bitch at the USPS counter did something to it...

Might have to give you a refund if it does not come this week...
got it just now Matt

thank you!

ill dig into it later this week

[Big Steve]

I snail mailed a MO to Omega as he don't do cards. Probably be 2 weeks before I see them. Steve

[weasel_master]

I can send you mine if you want a jump start on it Steve. I won't be needing it for a bit.

[Big Steve]

That's OK Ryan. I have plans for this weekend anyway. They will get here in time.
Steve

[kevin]

so this will work for the m53 and mg42? im considering ordering a barrel. Im out of 8mm now anyways and i cant find any thats affordable. Who knows when my m53 will come from wiselite/century. How will these work being that the barrels are different on the chamber end?

[Big Steve]

so this will work for the m53 and mg42? im considering ordering a barrel. Im out of 8mm now anyways and i cant find any thats affordable. Who knows when my m53 will come from wiselite/century. How will these work being that the barrels are different on the chamber end?
Re-read everything in this post Kevin. I am going to cut some off the breach end of the Vickers barrel, re-thread it to fit MG42/ M53 Barrel extension. re-chamber it to 7.62X39. Cut some off the muzzle end, press and solder a sleeve that will lock in to the barrel bushing. And re-crown. Presto- 7.62X39 MG42/M53 barrel. I don't know how many Vickers barrels are in the states, but at $50 bucks they are a good price for a blank. I also do not know exactly how much time I will have in one and what I will want to modify one if I can make it shoot reliably. But I have yet to see why it wont work! If it works, word will get out and someone may be able to make a complete barrel from a blank for less that I can do a vickers for. That's fine with me as I really don't need another job anyway, if you know what I mean! But I will do some for you guys. I ordered 2, the way I figure it if it doesnt work I will trade the other one to a Vickers guy for something!
Steve

[Big Steve]

I just sent a e-mail to Dave Manson asking about reamers and gauges. Reamers are about $90. I sent him a link to this thread so he could look at Perros pics. I wanted to get his opinion on, if he thinks it can be done with just a finish reamer or if a roughing reamer will be needed also. I will let you know when I here back from him.
I wonder what the WW2 Brits would think of us taking there barrels and modifying them to shoot Russian ammo in a German gun?
Steve

[weasel_master]

Have you done any more with this Steve? I'm sending off for some things from Omega today and might pick up an extra barrel or two.

[trenches]

54r presents its own problems with a mg42
it is a rimmed cartridge, and the mg42 was designed to shoot semi rimmed like 8mm or .308

rimmed carts headspace differently, and i dont think it would work well in a mg42 bolt

the bren shoots a rimmed cart (the .303) so its natural to convert it to 54r

i dont think a 54r conversion would be able to be accomplished with a mg42 - at least not with a standard 42 bolt head
Actually the 7.62x54r conversion is very close to realization. The bolthead needs to be opened to allow for the rim of the Russian cartridge and the extractor reworked. The feed mechanism is also reworked. As a matter of fact I have a conversion in progress. The feed tray has to be modified to use the Russian cartridge. I did this by cutting 2 .308 feed trays and then welding them back together to creat a longer feed tray. The cartridge stop has to be modified also. I also modified a .308 top cover. Still more work needs to be done but there will be a 7.62x54r conversion for the mg-42.

[sdk1968]

just caught this thread and a 54r set up would be very cool as ive just recently finished my MG42 SA...

will keep tabs on this one.