MOUT then and now

[cetme]

I kicked up an older (1980's) army training manual on MOUT. The focus of the text was retaking germany after the reds invaded using alot of armor and mech. infantry. I'd like to know what there teaching now after four years of field expirience in the sand box.

[tanstaafl4y]

When I first joined the Army I was a field Artilleryman and I did exactly Zero MOUT training. When I reclassed to Military Police our MOUT training in MP School was still using the 80's type senarios - although we also did a some Law Enforcement CQB/House clearing that the instructions said also applied in MOUT environments.

I, 2 other NCO's, and a 2nd LT were sent to a "SWAT/Dynamic Entry" train-the-trainer course and an advanced Tactical Course in North Carolina. We intergrated this into our unit regular training plan. Prior to deployment to Kosovo we spent 2 weeks focusing on CQB. In Both Kosovo and Afganistan, we would assist infantry/Armor platoons conducting arrest/ high risk search operations. Based on my experiences at that time the Units we were assisting were trained for a combat environment (1980's senarios) rather than Law enforcement type.

I was medically discharged in 2003 so I cannot say if there has been changes since then.

I can say with certainty that in Kosovo and Afganistan is was generally unacceptable to use a Frag Grenade to clear a room.... Iraq, is a diffrent story

[M1 Tanker]

There is a whole new manual now.....and now Tankers do MOUT believe it or not.

[tanstaafl4y]

There is a whole new manual now.....and now Tankers do MOUT believe it or not.

It was my understanding that as part of the Bde. Combat Team reorganization the training plan Army-wide was revamped. The nature of warfare has changed and the Army is changing to meet the unique challegges of 'low intensity' conflict (I shudder at that term)

I feel that one of the reason that MPs were used as much as we were (pre-Iraq) was due to our training (however meager) in Law Enforcement as opposed to war-fighting.

[Optimus Prime]

From what I gather EVERYBODY does MOUT in basic now, especially us engineer types. We went through our "walk" phase down at Ft. McCoy last month, and it was pretty good. Alot of the techniques were stuff that some of our guys had firsthand experience doing in Iraq, so there was alot of "the manual says this, but if you don't want to die, do it this way."
Here's some pics for people's enjoyment. And yes, the guy in the last picture is totally getting smoked by a parked car... with no engine. Plus the guy with the super-awesome glasses is the most badass surveyor you'll ever meet.

[SteelCore]

"unacceptable to use a Frag Grenade to clear a room.... Iraq, is a diffrent story"

-->Really? My MP buddy in the 1st marine expeditionary said grenades were a no-no when he was kicking in doors and doing the snatch-n-grabs...I guess times, they are a changin'.

[Optimus Prime]

I would imagine grenades would fall under the "mission dictates" area... some of those mud huts in Afghanistan took some direct hits from the big rockets they threw at us pretty well.

[M1 Tanker]

"unacceptable to use a Frag Grenade to clear a room.... Iraq, is a diffrent story"

-->Really? My MP buddy in the 1st marine expeditionary said grenades were a no-no when he was kicking in doors and doing the snatch-n-grabs...I guess times, they are a changin'.

If you were doing a snatch and grab, why would you frag the target?

[DAA1]

We don't use grenades to clear rooms.... we have to follow the rules of engagement which don't allow for the indiscriminate killing of civilians or bad guys...

I feel for the guys who do this for a living with all the rules they have to follow... which in some cases get them shot and or blown up.

[Norton]

We did zero Mout training in 1979/80. But we did do lot of it in the Reserves and Guard in the mid to late 1980s. We went to a cinderblock city at FT Bragg and a cinderblock town at Quantico. You are right the early 80s FMs all showed Soviet tanks and APC in the drawings. They just had started using the MILES equipment at that time . I don't know if they still use it but you had a bunch of lazer sensors on a vest and around your steel pot (latter the kevlar) I don't think it worked. But we did use arty simulators and a flash bang grenade of some sort.

[Optimus Prime]

We're still using MILES for stuff, but for MOUT supposedly we're getting simunitions... MOUT's just too close for blanks, and besides, you really know if you've been hit with a simunition... hehehe

[SteelCore]

Point taken.:3stooges:

I guess I wuz saying that we iz the good guyz.:cop:

[LorDiego]

The only MOUNT and MILES training I ever did was in America's Army videogame.

I wonder, how realistic is the training sessions on that game, as compared to real military? (of course, in the game you are done in 30 minutes!)

[Phirebug]

we did mout in Basic, and then a few more times before deployment.
I have never been taught to clear a room the same way twice. This isn't actually as bad as it sounds though, since every building is different, and a lot of situations don't have one specific right way to do it. The focus was always to learn different principles of CQB that you could apply on the fly rather than "such and such a person will always turn left at this type of a doorway" It's pretty good training, and a hell of a lot of fun. The MOUT sites at Ft. Hood are pretty awesome. They have entire villiages built up to look like Iraqi villiages. Only bad part was all the bat guano. In Basic we used paintballs, at Ft. Hood we used blanks. The paintballs were a lot more fun, but they weren't as good for training purposes, as when you give 120 privates paintball guns, tactics go right out the window and it just dissolves into a regular paintball game, and your one and only chance to get back at your Drill Sergeant. :D

[cetme]

my little brother went thrue MILES taining just last month in basic. Sounds to me if one went to gunsite etc. one would have the same level of training in MOUT as the better trained military personel exept for the "field exp" the boys in green get.