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View Full Version : Interesting commentary on the VT shooting.



okie shooter
04-18-2007, 12:22 PM
Found this here, interesting reading a comment where the gun is not the evil thing causing all of this.

From, this opnion

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-fox17apr17,1,7688699.story?coll=la-news-comment



Why they kill
By James Alan Fox, JAMES ALAN FOX is a professor of criminal justice at Northeastern University and the author of many books, including "The Will to Kill" (2006) and "Extreme Killing" (2005).
April 17, 2007


MASS MURDER certainly wasn't invented with the 1966 Texas Tower shootings. For as long as there has been history, there has been murder — including horrific mass murder. Certainly in the first half of the 20th century there were examples, such as the case of Howard Unruh, a mentally ill war veteran who killed 13 people in 13 minutes with a Luger pistol on the streets of Camden, N.J., in 1949.

But 1966 was a dramatic turning point. On Aug. 1, Charles Whitman, a student at the University of Texas at Austin, climbed up a 27-story tower and killed 14 people, wounding 31 others, before being shot dead by the police.

After the Whitman killings, the incidents started to climb. Mass murders (and, especially, mass shootings) became increasingly common — George Hennard in Killeen, Texas; Patrick Edward Purdy in Stockton; James Huberty in San Ysidro; Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., to name just a few — and the body counts began to grow as well. Seven of the eight largest mass shootings in modern U.S. history have occurred in the last 25 years.

The murder of at least 32 people at Virginia Tech on Monday may have been the worst, but it was only one of about 20 mass shootings that occur each year in the United States (a subset of the two dozen or so mass murders). A mass murder is defined as an event in which four or more people are killed in the same episode. Serial killings, by contrast, occur over an extended time.

What accounts for the increase? Is it possible that man (and yes, 95% of all mass murderers are men, who tend to be far more comfortable and better trained in using firearms) has simply grown more evil and bloodthirsty since 1966 than during the previous millenniums of human existence?

Of course not. But several changes have taken place that have made such incidents more common.

One, of course, is the change in the potency of weaponry. Before 1966, the best weapons available to most would-be killers were pistols, rifles, maybe a shotgun. That is no longer the case; today, semiautomatics are all too easily accessible.

But there also have been societal changes that have increased the incidence of mass killing. In studying mass murderers over 25 years, my colleague, Jack Levin, and I have identified five factors that exist in virtually all cases.

First, perpetrators have a long history of frustration and failure and a diminished ability to cope with life's disappointments.

Second, they externalize blame, frequently complaining that others didn't give them a chance. Sometimes they argue that their ethnic or racial group or gender isn't getting the breaks that others are. (An example of this is Marc Lepine, who killed 14 female engineering students at the Ecole Polytechnique of the University of Montreal, apparently because he felt that women were taking too many seats at the university.)

Third, these killers generally lack emotional support from friends or family. You've read the "he always seemed to be something of a loner" quote? It has a grounding in reality.

Fourth, they generally suffer a precipitating event they view as catastrophic. This is most often some sort of major disappointment: the loss of a job or the breakup of a relationship. In massacres at colleges and universities, it's often about getting a grade the shooter feels he didn't deserve. In 1991, a graduate student at the University of Iowa killed five people because he thought his physics dissertation should have won a prestigious $1,000 award.

Fifth, they need access to a weapon powerful enough to satisfy their need for revenge.

So what has changed? For one thing, the United States has become much more dog-eat-dog, more competitive in recent years. We admire those who achieve at any cost, and it seems that we have less compassion for those who fail. (Just look at how eager we are to vote people off the island or to reject them in singing competitions.) This certainly increases frustration on the part of losers.

Then there's the eclipse of traditional community: higher rates of divorce, the decline of church-going and the fact that more people live in urban areas, where they may not even know their neighbors. If mass murderers are isolated people who lack support, these trends only exacerbate the situation.

Many mass murderers, for example, are people who have picked up roots and moved. James Huberty, who used a 9-mm semiautomatic Uzi to kill 21 people during a 77-minute massacre at a McDonald's in San Ysidro in 1984, had moved to California from Ohio after losing his job. When he lost another job in California, he had no friends or extended family to fall back on. They were all in Ohio.

These days, we know an awful lot about why these events occur. We're beginning to understand the motivations behind events that, to many people, seem senseless. But that doesn't mean we can prevent them. We're not going to build fortresses out of our college campuses, nor should we.

It should give us some degree of consolation to know that these events are exceedingly rare. But they still occur, and they are among the sad and tragic prices we pay for the kind of open, modern, democratic society we live in.

SteelCore
04-18-2007, 12:57 PM
wow...a top 5 list of symptoms...mebbe ppl will recognize these and help the psychos of the new genration to get help!

jlpskydive
04-18-2007, 01:08 PM
Nice article thanks!

tanstaafl4y
04-18-2007, 03:23 PM
Excellent article. Glad you posted it, I doubt I'd of seen it elsewhere.

okie shooter
04-18-2007, 04:31 PM
From this site, a little off topic, but interesting how NY looks at its mass murders.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/happyland/trial_7.html



On September 19, 1991, Gonzalez was sentenced to 25 years to life on each of the 174 counts of murder, a sentence that was without equal in New York State history. However, he could still be released after 25 years since in New York, any sentence for an act committed during a single offense must be served concurrently, not consecutively.

Geilt
04-18-2007, 05:03 PM
Finally, a well thought out article on a dark subject. Instead of pandering to a particular bias the author took a neutral look at the subject matter and explained his stance with logic.

(sigh)

I know its too much to expect but if the media would start listening to people like this instead of those that yell the loudest, I'd start watching the news again.

MID
04-18-2007, 06:39 PM
I am getting sick and tired of the constant blame on the "new and more deadly weapons" mantra. And how We need more anti gun laws.

Some of the students and faculty nailed the real reason for the "sucessfullness" of these killers.

Some of the students where qouted saying," there was nothing i could do, at the time i wish i had a gun too."

BINGO !!

If everybody was armed that day, there would be two possibly three people dead that day, possibly the idea of mutual destruction could have prevented this all together.

Heres what would have happened.

Crazy guy would have shot person A. Person B Or C would have shot the crazy guy. All over, this incindent would have been over before 32 people where killed.

Cause right now they way it is, I bet a determined person could walk into any place such as a school armed with nuthing more then a sword and a single shot 410. And far surpase this massacres death toll.


I blame the government.
They, by reducing our ability to be armed have taken full responsiblity of protecting our lives. And then when the shit hits the fan, the government cant respond fast enough , because they not on the scene untill after the fact. They respond, not react.
The people, they are charged with protecting are now totally defenseless, because they where relying on an entity, that cant even figure out how to balance budget, to protect them.

jlpskydive
04-18-2007, 08:47 PM
I am getting sick and tired of the constant blame on the "new and more deadly weapons" mantra. And how We need more anti gun laws.

Some of the students and faculty nailed the real reason for the "sucessfullness" of these killers.

Some of the students where qouted saying," there was nothing i could do, at the time i wish i had a gun too."

BINGO !!

If everybody was armed that day, there would be two possibly three people dead that day, possibly the idea of mutual destruction could have prevented this all together.

Heres what would have happened.

Crazy guy would have shot person A. Person B Or C would have shot the crazy guy. All over, this incindent would have been over before 32 people where killed.

Cause right now they way it is, I bet a determined person could walk into any place such as a school armed with nuthing more then a sword and a single shot 410. And far surpase this massacres death toll.


I blame the government.
They, by reducing our ability to be armed have taken full responsiblity of protecting our lives. And then when the shit hits the fan, the government cant respond fast enough , because they not on the scene untill after the fact. They respond, not react.
The people, they are charged with protecting are now totally defenseless, because they where relying on an entity, that cant even figure out how to balance budget, to protect them.

Yep!! +1

hunter_la5
04-18-2007, 09:59 PM
A big +1 MID!

cma g21
04-20-2007, 10:55 AM
This from Fred Thompson:

http://abcradio.com/article.asp?id=389928&SPID=15663


Signs of Intelligence?

One of the things that's got to be going through a lot of peoples' minds now is how one man with two handguns, that he had to reload time and time again, could go from classroom to classroom on the Virginia Tech campus without being stopped. Much of the answer can be found in policies put in place by the university itself.

Virginia, like 39 other states, allows citizens with training and legal permits to carry concealed weapons. That means that Virginians regularly sit in movie theaters and eat in restaurants among armed citizens. They walk, joke and rub shoulders everyday with people who responsibly carry firearms -- and are far safer than they would be in San Francisco, Oakland, Detroit, Chicago, New York City, or Washington, D.C., where such permits are difficult or impossible to obtain.

The statistics are clear. Communities that recognize and grant Second Amendment rights to responsible adults have a significantly lower incidence of violent crime than those that do not. More to the point, incarcerated criminals tell criminologists that they consider local gun laws when they decide what sort of crime they will commit, and where they will do so.

Still, there are a lot of people who are just offended by the notion that people can carry guns around. They view everybody, or at least many of us, as potential murderers prevented only by the lack of a convenient weapon. Virginia Tech administrators overrode Virginia state law and threatened to expel or fire anybody who brings a weapon onto campus.

In recent years, however, armed Americans -- not on-duty police officers -- have successfully prevented a number of attempted mass murders. Evidence from Israel, where many teachers have weapons and have stopped serious terror attacks, has been documented. Supporting, though contrary, evidence from Great Britain, where strict gun controls have led to violent crime rates far higher than ours, is also common knowledge.

So Virginians asked their legislators to change the university's "concealed carry" policy to exempt people 21 years of age or older who have passed background checks and taken training classes. The university, however, lobbied against that bill, and a top administrator subsequently praised the legislature for blocking the measure.

The logic behind this attitude baffles me, but I suspect it has to do with a basic difference in worldviews. Some people think that power should exist only at the top, and everybody else should rely on "the authorities" for protection.

Despite such attitudes, average Americans have always made up the front line against crime. Through programs like Neighborhood Watch and Amber Alert, we are stopping and catching criminals daily. Normal people tackled "shoe bomber" Richard Reid as he was trying to blow up an airliner. It was a truck driver who found the D.C. snipers. Statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that civilians use firearms to prevent at least a half million crimes annually.

When people capable of performing acts of heroism are discouraged or denied the opportunity, our society is all the poorer. And from the selfless examples of the passengers on Flight 93 on 9/11 to Virginia Tech professor Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor who sacrificed himself to save his students earlier this week, we know what extraordinary acts of heroism ordinary citizens are capable of.

Many other universities have been swayed by an anti-gun, anti-self defense ideology. I respect their right to hold those views, but I challenge their decision to deny Americans the right to protect themselves on their campuses -- and then proudly advertise that fact to any and all.

Whenever I've seen one of those "Gun-free Zone" signs, especially outside of a school filled with our youngest and most vulnerable citizens, I've always wondered exactly who these signs are directed at. Obviously, they don't mean much to the sort of man who murdered 32 people just a few days ago.

XO3319
04-20-2007, 01:22 PM
excellent commentary

I said the same thing to my wife

I might be voting for Fred Thompson next year

SteelCore
04-20-2007, 01:53 PM
But I gotta say the avg persn would not know the diff btwn a real sword and some decorator model...so I wrote "machete" into my head...machetes are readily available, cheap, and tough enough.

Geilt
04-20-2007, 03:20 PM
I have a gut feeling that Thompson will be on the ticket in '08. He originally stated he doesn't want to run against McCain as they are friends. He's supporting the McCain campaign pretty strongly at the moment.

A lot of people are thinking he's already made up his mind to run, or at the very least make himself available for a VP slot. He's probably waiting to let the field die down a bit and come in late.

mistersquiggles
04-20-2007, 04:25 PM
well after reading that........ .. even if he int on the ballot, i'll be writing his name in........ him or the Nuge!!!!

MicroPilot
04-20-2007, 11:02 PM
http://gunowners.org/pres08/thompson2.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Thompson

According to WikiPedia "A Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll released Wednesday, April 11, indicates Thompson, who has yet to announce his candidacy, has risen to #2, ahead of Arizona Senator John McCain...."