CETME bolt carrier and stock

[LoudNProud10]

Have a question about a new CETME bolt carrier. This is going to be a long one. I have posted this on another forum but wanted to try one that had a lot of knowledge about CETME's. I ordered a new CETME bolt carrier from Apex and it arrived friday. When I took the bolt carrier out that was in the rifle I noticed it was different. I was told on another forum that it is a G3 bolt carrier and apparently I have a G3 stock as well. Now the bolt carrier that was in the rifle has a collar inside it that the recoil spring retainer hits in order for the spring to work, the new one does not have anything inside the bolt carrier for the spring to push against, it just slides all the way down and sits there. I was told, "just sand down the washer so it fits and it will work", knowing this wouldn't work I did it anyways, and WOW it didnt work. So I sanded that down for nothing. Now I have a rifle that doesn't work. I'm already about 1 day away from getting rid of this thing, and want to know if there is a fix for this. Thanks.

Pictures: The first picture is of the two bolt carriers. The one on the left is the old one and the right one is the new one I purchased from Apex. Picture 2 is another pic of the old bolt carrier. The last picture is what happens when the recoil assembly is inserted into the new bolt carrier.

[drine]

Looks the same to me with a couple of exceptions. The new one on the right has no notch cut YET. You must cut a notch so that full auto parts would not work. (Upper right corner of the first carrier). The notches on the sides are a difference in carrier models. No problems there. The new carrier actually has more surface area.
If you put a G3 stock set on the CETME, which many do, you must sand the plastic bushing a bit.
Other than that, can you provide pics of the rest of the parts? The stock especially. More pics of the top and side of the bolt carrier too. You are sure you have a CETME and not a G3? Not to be offending but just checking.
More to add: The new carrier may be longer. This is very common. The old one may have been ground on the end. Once we get this first issue resolved, you will need to check to see if the carrier is hitting the front stop around your charging handle. This is bad for the rifle and dangerous to you. There must be some play in it roughly equivalent to the bolt gap. Lastly, why did you need to change the carrier?
Give it a few days, we'll help you fix it.

[rustypirate]

LoudNProud,

The old bolt carrier is an older CETME model "B" type and has lightening cuts made on the rail guides. The new one you received is the later CETME model "C" carrier that the lightening cuts were left out. Either one will work in your rifle. You definately did NOT get a G3 carrier from Apex. The buttstock is a G3 model one, but if the washer will fit easily into the end of bolt carrier tube, then it will work once you recitfy the spacer issue below.

The reason that the new carrier is not sitting on the recoil spring assembly correctly is that it is missing a spacer inside of the tube as you have already identified. You should be able to drive out the spacer from the old one if it has not rusted tight, or you can fabricate one from a piece of 1/2" steel tubing.

This site sells the tubing in lengths as short as 12"
http://www.smallparts.com/Carbon-Steel-Seamless-Annealed-Tubing/dp/B001DD46LC/185-5958719-2270057?ie=UTF8&qid=1239498279&pf_rd_r=1TVX4PS5130MQXB9ERNB&pf_rd_p=467590031&pf_rd_i=0&sr=1-7&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_m=AIUBT5HP6PMAF&pf_rd_t=301

Here is a drawing of the spacer with rough dimensions.

[drine]

Damn Rusty, you are the CETME guru. I never knew that and surely don't remember it being posted. We can still learn from each other. Gives me the warm fuzzies!:icon_biggrin:

[Enscribe]

I tried to help him on the other forum but I am now confused at what he is doing that is causing the problem. You guys are the guru's so have at it. :)

Good luck to you LoudnProud10.

[jfowl31]

+1 to everything Rusty said... it IS a Cetme carrier, and you are missing the tube/collar that goes inside it.

You did NOT do anything wrong though by sanding down the plastic ring just so you know. If everything was there on the new Cetme carrier, you would have needed to sand it anyways.

And once you get everything assembled, you will need to Mic the lengths of the old and new carriers. to make sure nothing bottoms out on your charging handle mechanism. But don't just go to grinding, check here first... Century may have ground too much off your old one so you may end up with too much clearance if you just match their length.

But as has already been asked... why bother with the carrier? It won't add anything to your gap and 99% of the time can only cause problems... like putting in a new one that is too long and beating up your charging handle with too little clearance. I would leave the old carrier and put the new bolt onto it. Just my personal opinion.

[LoudNProud10]

Rustypirate,
I'll give it a try today. Any tips on getting this thing out? Thanks

[drine]

I'd try to find a "punch" just under 1/2" diameter to drift it out. Rusty will be along shortly to give details but I'd at least get some penetrating oil started while you wait.

[ranvette]

It seems like there has been a trend of some of the complete bolt carriers from apex not having spacers.Or at least this is the second one i have seen posted on here.Why not just take the new bolt head and related parts and put them on the old carrier ? You can also put the new locking arm and its spring on your old carrier.Just a thought there is very little that could be wrong with the old carrier unless it had cracked welds which is very unlikely.Plus if the gun cocks over fine with the old carrier why get involved with filing and fitting the new one? Just a few thoughts to make things easy for your self.All you had to do to fit the recoil spring and guide from the g3 stock. Was slightly sand down the plastic washer just until it slides into the old carrier.Than it will catch properly on the spacer in the old bolt carrier.Hopefully it is not over sanded now

[LoudNProud10]

Drine, good idea and one step ahead of you. I figured while I was waiting I would throw some PB Blaster on it. I was looking at it and it seems as if you can only punch it out in one direction (which would make sense). Not sure if a dowl rod would be strong enough, depending on how snug this thing is in there. Thanks a lot.

A couple people were wondering why I was replacing the bolt carrier to being with. Simple answer is that when I was doing some trouble shooting on a bolt gap issue I took the bolt carrier out to measure it's length and it was way under spec. Doesn't appear to be ground but was far from being 10-15/16".

[LoudNProud10]

Ranvette, the washers arent over sanded and still fit in the old carrier. Is the fact that the old carrier is out of spec not matter?

[ranvette]

Well i would say the end has been ground down to get the needed space between the end and chargeing handle.Is is over ground down well one would not know unless trying the new bolt head and parts on it.Than see what your bolt gap is? If you have a good gap and she cocks over fine your all set

[LoudNProud10]

You mean the end of the bolt carrier tube has been ground down and I won't know unless I try the new Bolt carrier? After looking at the end of the carrier tube it looks like it has been ground down to the minimal amount possible (Not the rear of the bolt carrier, the front part of the tube). The bolt head is new, so thats why I figured it was the bolt carrier.

[ranvette]

Yes thats were they grind them down.HK even has a special tool to do this.This is something that was done when needed when building these rifles.
So in other words a new G3 or cetme could very well have some ground off the end of the carrier tube for final charging handle to the end of the carrier space.The space is needed so that the carrier does not hit the handle when the carrier is fully forward.And a little space is needed so the gun cocks over easy

[LoudNProud10]

Ok so it's possible that they took too much off then? The reason I say this because it's my understanding that if you take too much off, it's just as hard to cock as if you didn't take any off. It was more often than not a B*tch to get the cocking lever back. I'm going to order a new sleeve from Century Arms ($9) and test it out. If it doesnt work then it doesnt work.

[drine]

LNP,
The cocking tube was welded on. There can be big differences in just how long they actually are. THAT determines how long the carrier should be. Make sense. The carrier must have adequate room to do its job. The cocking tube is the deciding factor. The measurement given is indeed the "specs" for the new carrier but it would need triming to the coccking tube length before using it. Check this out: My carrier is ground. When I bought it new the carrier was still hitting the stop at the front and cracked my tube a bit before I found out about this site. I could have ground even more off to help correct this. Those "techs" at Century built these and checked the gap without seeing if other issues were coming in to play. I had .004 gap sitting on the rest. That means "0" gap and needed serious work. I ended up rebarreling but really could have added the new parts prior to get me in a safe gap range.
A bit of advice would be to use your new bolt head and locking piece on the old carrier. Insure the carrier has clearance on the end. If you can jiggle the handle/inner slave without liffing the handle enough to unlock, you're in the game. Check your bolt gap and let us know what it is also. You can do this with all the old parts first then with the new. That way we can see if there's improvement. The cocking handle slave inside the tube can be a challenge to get out. Soak it too because you can get a better true bolt gap reading with it out of the way. This is useful when there are questions about carrier length either way.

[LoudNProud10]

old bolt carrier and head - bol gap .007. Very little wiggle on cocking lever.

[LoudNProud10]

New carrier and head - bolt gap .024. I can see by doing that with the new bolt carrier, that it will need to be grinded down where it meets the cocking lever.

[cevgunner]

LNP;
If I`m following the thread , you picked up the new carrier assembly for two reasons;
Low bolt gap ,
Hard charging

As others stated , try the new bolthead and locking piece on your old carrier first - check the bolt gap as usual , keeping the rifle horizontal all the way thru the process. I tried letting the bolt go home with the rifle vertical , once - it does throw things off!

Your original carrier is a Model "B" carrier , which is fine. The Model "C" locking piece is designed for the pressure curve of the 7.62 NATO cartridge.

The slot cut all the way thru on one side was where the FA trip lever would have been on the original military rifle. Those parts no longer exist in your trigger pack, and can`t be installed. Or reinstalled , for that matter.

Anyway , if your boltgap comes back into range , your next step would be a set of +2 , or +4 rollers , if you need more than the lower end of the gap range. You can get those from Robert G`s website , or any of the other HK related sites. The rollers all interchange - the CETME is the G3`s grandfather , after all.

Hard charging - it sounds like the angry monkeys might have gone a bit too long with the grinder. 10 15/16" is the overall length of the bolt carriers I measured ( about a dozen , IIRC ) , and the new bolt carrier assembly I got from APEX is the same. As one of the others said , you need a bit of end play ( ability to lift the charging handle slightly ) to avoid crashing parts.

Hard charging is a symptom of too much clearance - either the tube got cut short , or the camming tip on the charging handle is worn , or soft , and needs corrected.

If you drop the new assembly into your rifle , and it bangs to a stop without the boltgap closing up , the charging tube was welded to the receiver short.

DO NOT SEND THE RIFLE BACK TO CENTURY !!!

They won`t honor the warranty because of the work you did, and you don`t want to give them the parts you bought.

Try the "dime trick " instead. You use a dime inside the charging handle tube , as a shim , to see how much you need to do to correct the problem.

Dime goes in , between the charging handle support , and the inside stop in the charging handle tube. If it`s easier to open the bolt after that , you have a ball park estimate of the amount of change to make on your new carrier , of the amount of weld to add to the end of your original carrier tube.

PM me if this is confusing , I can call you to walk you thru a fix , if you like.

regards ,
cevgunner

Attached pic is another fix for hard charging problem. Thanks to the original poster @ cetmerifles , Warthog , and others..

[ranvette]

The most intersting thing is what does it have with the old bolt carrier and new bolt head and related parts? sounds like with the old bolt head and carrier at .007 the old carrier would need a little more ground off or is to short?You never know with the old bolt carrier and new bolt it may cock fine.If the bolt gap goes up a fair amount? Is the original bolt ground?

[LoudNProud10]

Original bolt is not ground. The old bolt carrier can not be ground anymore on the tube without losing the cap at the end of the tube that holds the sleeve inside.

[jfowl31]

so once again... what's the point of changing the carrier??????????????????????

It won't make a difference and can only make things worse. If you've just got a tiny bit of play with the old one, you are golden. throw in the new bolt head and LP and shoot it.

.007" isn't the greatest gap, but its withing spec. If it shoots well at that gap you'll get many thousands of rounds before you need to do anything else, and even then you can add oversized rollers.

save the new carrier for spare parts in case something breaks. Use the old one and shoot th hell out of it.

[Otis61]

+1 to what jfowl said. Besides I think mine shot better (smaller groups) when my gap was .04 than it does now after I put new parts in it. That the way it seems anyway. I never did any real testing.

[Smokehouse69]

I'm not sure that the groove in the bottom of the bolt carrier is absolutely required for the CETME semi-automatic conversion, unless you are using an HK trigger group. I think it is an HK only conversion requirement.

[jfowl31]

the way I understand it is that there is no letter saying its not required, only letters saying it IS required..... It changes nothing about the operation of the rifle, and its not hard to do.... so what's the point of not doing it?

I will say I've never seen anything that applies to HK only though or Cetme only for that matter.

[cevgunner]

LNP;

Just reread most of the posts - try getting a measurement from the face of the trunnion to the muzzle end of the charging handle tube. Should be around 12 1/4" - that`s what I get on my 2 spare parts kits barrel assemblies.

If your carrier was ground short , it sounds like the charging tube cut short and welded on anyway .

It may be simpler to just weld up the tip on the charging handle , as in the picture I posted. Just use the new locking piece , bolt head , and maybe put in a set of +2 rollers.

As for the right hand slot on your new bolt carrier - it`s a final measure to ensure semi-auto only function. Cut , mill , or grind it thru , and put the piece aside as a spare. Don`t grind it short, if you don`t need to.

Hope this is useful,
cevgunner

[Leadandlevers]

Weird. My Apex bolt carrier that I got a few weeks ago has the spacer.

Maybe I lucked out. Strangely enough, it is slightly longer (by about1/16th) than the one that came with the monkey built rifle.

Listen to Rusty. He can solve all problems.

Well, CETME ones anyway. The rest are somebody else's problems.