Is 922r Dead? Yeah its on the books but no penalties???

[IMBLITZVT]

Guys, I found this pretty interesting off the MG42.us site. Striker754 makes an interesting post, what do you think?

http://www.panzer46.net/mg42board/viewtopic.php?t=3775

"

As everyone probably knows 922(r) says:

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

The related CFR (27CFR478.39) states:

Sec. 478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
( Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(1 Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



Now, 18 USC 924 governs penalties for unlawful acts described in 18 USC 922.

Penalties for (r) are NOT mentioned in this section.


Below mentions the references to 922(r) in the now gone Assault Weapons Ban. The AWB provided for penalties for 922(r) however these are no longer on US books.


Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 110102(c)(1), which substituted "(r), or

(v) of section 922" for "or (q) of section 922", was repealed by

Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 110105(2). See Effective and Termination

Dates of 1994 Amendment note below.


Subsec. (a)(1)(B). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 330002(h), which

directed amendment of subpar. (B) by substituting "(r)" for "(q)",

was repealed by Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 603(n), which provided that

Sec. 330002(h) shall be considered never to have been enacted.


So, 922(r) is on the books, but there are no penalties for it Any opinions on this?

"

[hunter_la5]

interesting...just the same, I'm not going to risk it until the ATF says its okay

[Rampager]

The way I look at is with all the ass-hat shootings lately and Dems coming into to power (probably more so in the furure) I'm not going to take a chance. You never know when the ATF could start cracking down and I don't want to be the example.

Guys can do what they want, but if I'm going to err it's going to be on the "right" side of the fence. I've always walked a straight line on guns and will continue to do so. If nothing else I have peice of mind. Just my opinion...

[nalioth]

Folks, he's not saying the law is not valid.

He is saying that there are no punishments listed for breaking the law.

If you don't follow the 922r, you are still breaking the law.


..... and he is not a laywer, and I don't think the guy on mg42.us is, either.

[Otis61]

I agree with Rampager. Better safe than sorry.

[Rampager]

Folks, he's not saying the law is not valid.

He is saying that there are no punishments listed for breaking the law.

If you don't follow the 922r, you are still breaking the law.


..... and he is not a laywer, and I don't think the guy on mg42.us is, either.

Oh I understand what he is saying. I've never heard of a conviction either. I just don't want folks to get the wrong idea (IMHO).

[okie shooter]

Yes there are penalties, read below

Since 922r seems to still be on the books, from the penalty section as stated above

from this site http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000924----000-.html

TITLE 18 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18.html) > PART I (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html) > CHAPTER 44 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_44.html) > § 924Prev (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000923----000-.html) | Next (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000925----000-.html)§ 924. Penalties



(a)
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, subsection (b), (c), or (f) of this section, or in section 929 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000929----000-.html), whoever— (A) knowingly makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter or in applying for any license or exemption or relief from disability under the provisions of this chapter;
(B) knowingly violates subsection (a)(4), (f), (k), or (q) of section 922 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html);
(C) knowingly imports or brings into the United States or any possession thereof any firearm or ammunition in violation of section 922 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html) (l) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html#l); or
(D) willfully violates any other provision of this chapter, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Looks like there is not a specific mention of 922r in the penalties, but as the first line of 922r says " It shall be unlawful" and it is covered by the last line as I have quoted above, "D".

(D) willfully violates any other provision of this chapter,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

So if its not mentioned there specifically, there still is a fine and a specific mention of prison. I may not be a lawyer and didn't stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night( I can read the law though) but it is covered by that omnibus statement there. I don't think the ATF is going to let that slip by.

I guess Striker754 from the MG42.us site just did a search for a specific penality mentioning 922r, but there isnt a specific penalty as there isnt specific penalties for much of the CFR's restrictions thus its covered by the most general restriction listed.

Ironically I just used the referance to the first post, to look this up, its kinda of like at work, they put a nice line saying "and other jobs as assigned", in your work discription.

I think if you un willfully, meaning you buy a gun not in compliance with 922r, you would at mininum would give up the firearm, as its in violation of the statue, but maybe you werent, but I wouldnt play that game.

[bullseye]

None of it matters, before the final vote and if it looks like it will pass they will add more in at the last min with all kinds of penalties. How many times have they waited till the last min to sneek something ugly inon us? Think about it. :1092:

Edit: Never mind for this one, I was referring to the new laws being voted on. I'll go pull my head out and call it a night. :)

[weasel_master]

Perro made a good point before on this subject: this is our loophole to attaining non-importable firearms. Why give them a reason to close it?

[M1 Tanker]

I think Okie has squared this away....follow the laws fellas....Period.

[bullseye]

I think Okie has squared this away....follow the laws fellas....Period.

+1 to that, unless you wanna be a poster child for the other side. :(

[86thecat]

Even if no fine or jail time it's not worth risking loss of your right to own firearms. ATF seems to usually come out on top no matter how the laws are written.

[Geilt]

He who makes the rule wins. Running afoul of the ATF never turns out well in the end. If there is ever a question on one of their rulings, its best to err on the side of safety and abide by the strictest of the bunch.

[IMBLITZVT]

Hold on now boys...

I do not remember either me or striker saying its ok to break the law...

So just take a breath.

I said its interesting... thats all. Otherwise I would be telling everyone to get back out there good original parts.

I think Okie has made some good points and I also thought that even if the penalties had been deleted, they could still take the gun. So no I would have never suggested someone break the law and I will still follow it either way. Its a little price to pay to stay legal. I was interested in it from a legal stand point. Maybe its just because I am from MD, but the Dems are always using the laws to seem to say one thing but do something else. So this looked like it might be the reverse for once... thats all.

"Perro made a good point before on this subject: this is our loophole to attaining non-importable firearms. Why give them a reason to close it?"

Perro is very smart and I agree with him on 99% BUT I do not call it a loophole to own a gun that my constitution clearly says that I have a right to own. We are not the ones "getting around" the law here. They are breaking the law by passing unconstitutional gun laws. Think of it this way. If I steal $5 bucks from you every day but give one back... would you be happy you got one back or pissed that I took the first $4!

Either way... I am happy as Hell tonight!!! I just got 4,400rds of good (aussie, hind, radway..etc.) 308 for just under 22 cents a round!!!! THe 1919 is coming back out!

[Perro]

boy i sure wish you guys could talk to some of the people i know.

im working with 2 people right now that would make you guys shit your pants if you heard there stories.

i will agree it is a constitutional ammendment, but how many illegal gun laws are on the books as we speak?? how many?? 20,000 or so right?
its pretty clear they dont seem to care what the 2a says to me.
Its also 100% clear to me that 922r IS a loophole in our favor. Without that loophole you wouldnt be able to own ANY military style firearms from other countries since 1989. It would be illegal according to what we interpret the 2a to say, but illegal or not, it doesnt change the fact that you wouldnt own most of the firearms you have, or desire to have, so yes, i feel its a HUGE loophole for us.
dont EVER forget that if they just get sick of it because of everyone breaking the law, all they have to do is repeal the 2nd ammendment.

i prefer to go above and beyond 922r. Its a simple couple of US made parts - most are needed to make it a legal semi auto anyway, and it supports our community. It also keeps me away from Hep C Bubba, and all the ass violence that comes with it which is WELL worth it to me - it is CHEAP insurance if you ask me


my opinions only

[okie shooter]

Hold on now boys...

I do not remember either me or striker saying its ok to break the law...

Go to the mg42 board, and read referances to 922r posted by striker, he may not say to break laws but repetally says there is no penalty, when discussing parts.

I just read for five minutes the exact cfr that striker posted, and yes there was not a specific mention of 922r, but like I posted, there was the general mention in the code if not specificly mentioned.

I am saying read the law, its wasnt even hard to read, it was in plain english.

Think about it, if some one offers you a deal too good to be true, what do you think, laws on the books without punishment would be a deal too good to be true.

[XO3319]

Show me the case law that supports this, showing a law with no penalties and I'll believe it

It still is law and you would do well to bide by it, and I agree with Tanker and Perro that is a loophole that allows us some advantages

[okie shooter]

XO, read my post, there is a penality there, just says if you violate 922 any part of it you get a fine and up to five years.

[IMBLITZVT]

XO, In Baltimore county in MD, it is illegal to ride a bicycle without a helmet. If you break the law, they will write you a warning. If you continue, they will continue writing you warning but can do nothing more... Its still illegal but has no bite. They can not even stop you from getting back on without it. Trust me, you have no idea of how bad some law is until you visit MD. VA is a whole different world!

Okie, I agree. You made good points. That was what I was looking for.

You guys missed the point of this thread. It was not to let people break the law. It was for a discussion of the law and how the sunset might have changed this law.

Tanker, feel free to delete the thread. I think to many people took this as an excuse to break the law and that was not what I was going for.

[86thecat]

Hold on now boys...

I do not remember either me or striker saying its ok to break the law...

So just take a breath.

This is an open forum and some may see "no penalty" as permission to take a shortcut with serious consequenses. I think we're just trying to keep everyone out of trouble.

[nalioth]

This is an open forum and some may see "no penalty" as permission to take a shortcut with serious consequenses. I think we're just trying to keep everyone out of trouble.
There is not "no penalty". As was pointed out, there is a blanket penalty for any violation of a regulation not specifically listed.

[XO3319]

2nd Amendment case law IMBLITZVT. A toothless ordnance is not Federal statute.

I would want to see where a judge or a court ruled on 922r to get a precedent on no stated penalty being interpreted as not having any penalty for violation whatsoever. I'm not a lawyer but I'm married to one, and that interpretation will work like a turd in the punchbowl. And I work for the Federal Government.

SO follow the law, cause it is still the law.:cheers:

[Karl E. Hungus]

can someone fill me in on the purpose of 922? i believe that the auto weapons ban has one. but as far as military weapons, as long as they are modified to be fired only semi, doesnt that then just put them in the same category as semi auto sport rifles? why does the country of manufacture or possible importability make a difference? or am i just not understanding the language of the law?

[SteelCore]

"I just got 4,400rds of good 308 for just under 22 cents a round!!!! "

That's the REAL story here...Whatt a snag...I'm looking for that kinda deal! Do tell!

[okie shooter]

Ok I will explain this again,

The law prohibiting importation of prohibited weapons, is United States Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter44, Part 922(r) (thus the title unlawful acts) of the entire 922 section.


(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

This is the part of Federal Code(the laws of the land set forth by the agencies which with direction of congress make them in to the codefied law)

This section does not mention penalties, just the law,

The AWB did mention penalties, and was some what tied to 922r but not, 922r just says what is illegal to import, and with further explination as follows, in the CFR(Combined Federal Regulations, the rules written by various orgnizations to clearify the Code)

The related CFR (27CFR478.39) states:


Sec. 478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8)Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates


Again no mention of penalties, just what you have to do to stay clear of 922r, the law with the regulation Sec. 478.39 telling you how, the ten or less imported rule, which allows us folks to have some of the things we want at resonable prices by allowing subitution of less valueable parts made here as long as you use ten or less imported parts.

Ok now heres where the law has teeth, 922 is the segment of law outlined in the United States Code, the law of the land. Further explained by the CFR the rules on how the law are enforced. The penalties are outlined in this section of the United States Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter44, Part 924, Penalties

These are the penalties for violation of any part of 922, not just section(r) but any part of chapter


(a)
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, subsection (b), (c), or (f) of this section, or in section 929 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000929----000-.html), whoever— (A) knowingly makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter or in applying for any license or exemption or relief from disability under the provisions of this chapter;
(B) knowingly violates subsection (a)(4), (f), (k), or (q) of section 922 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html);
(C) knowingly imports or brings into the United States or any possession thereof any firearm or ammunition in violation of section 922 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html) (l) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html#l); or
(D) willfully violates any other provision of this chapter,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Note the last line, as highlighted, underlined and in bold, we are talking abuut this chapter thus this statement says it all, violate any part of this chapter 44 which 922 and section 922r is a part of, and you will go to jail for not more than five years, be subject to fine and maybe even both.

Thus any part of chapter 44 which the unlawful acts are listed in section 922 and the one we care about here is subsection (r), but any part of violating chapter44, section 922, is covered by the above red higlighted and underlined statement.

I am not sure who or what gives anyone heartburn on this, its there and I even have highlighted the points that you need to understand, there is a ban list of importable weapons, you can import parts, but to build a us made weapon, no matter how many evil assault rifle features you want, all you have to do is use ten or less imported parts to make it a US made firearm. If you dont do that by the guidelines set down in the CFR, you then get punished by the United State Code, Chapter 44, Section 924.

Please comment on what I am saying here, I am reading the code and the regulations and just showing you what is there, read it yourself here.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_44.html

Its searchable and there, this is just one source for the federal codes. You may have to crossreferance other sources for the federal regulations that explain what the agency says, and even after that they issue letters and other ruleings. If some one says there is a law but no punishment, as someone did here for more than half a year, and you beleive it, I have some ocean front property in AZ that I will sell you too, it has plenty of sand and a great view.

[okie shooter]

can someone fill me in on the purpose of 922? i believe that the auto weapons ban has one. but as far as military weapons, as long as they are modified to be fired only semi, doesnt that then just put them in the same category as semi auto sport rifles? why does the country of manufacture or possible importability make a difference? or am i just not understanding the language of the law?

I beleive you are talking about the C&R (curios and rellics)list, which mentions specific firearms that are allowed to be imported. On of the problems when you get into that, for the best example, is the SKS, because eastern europian and soviet ones are on the C&R list but the chinese are not.

From, United States Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter44, Part 925(e), Exceptions: Relief from disabilities

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000925----000-.html

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Attorney General shall authorize the importation of, by any licensed importer, the following:
(1) All rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html) (a)(13) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html#a_13), and
(2) All handguns, listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html) (a)(13) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html#a_13), provided that such handguns are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes

The entire section of 925 is interesting reading.

[nalioth]

.....Its searchable and there, this is just one source for the federal codes. You may have to crossreferance other sources for the federal regulations that explain what the agency says, and even after that they issue letters and other ruleings. If some one says there is a law but no punishment, as someone did here for more than half a year, and you beleive it, I have some ocean front property in AZ that I will sell you too, it has plenty of sand and a great view.


I beleive you are talking about the C&R (curios and rellics)list, which mentions specific firearms that are allowed to be imported. On of the problems when you get into that, for the best example, is the SKS, because eastern europian and soviet ones are on the C&R list but the chinese are not. There are so many laws on the books. C&R firearms are imported contradictory (but legally) to the 922r law.

[Perro]

922r in laymans terms

they banned the importation of firearms that are non sporting in 1989
they defined what they consider as non sporting, and everything we enjoy falls into that category.

922r says that if you have 10 or less imported parts on that list of 20 parts, then it is not an imported firearm. instead it is a US made firearm, which is not bound by the import restrictions of 1989

dont obey 922r and have more than 10 imported parts on the list of 20, and you now have a firearm that is illegal cause it was banned in 1989

remove 922r without the 1989 ban, and everything you own made after 1989 and not in a sporting configuration is contraband and illegal

922r is the loophole that gets us around 1989
if you repealed 922r today, everything you own made after 1989 would be illegal

unconstitutional or not, the 1989 ban is on the books, and if you get rid of 922r before you get rid of 1989, youve just screwed yourself.

follow 922r - it is the only thing allowing us to have these types of firearms whether it be unconstitutional or not, and that is the 100% truth, THIS LAW WORKS IN OUR FAVOR

im all for repealing 922r, but not before you remove 1989 first

[Karl E. Hungus]

I beleive you are talking about the C&R (curios and rellics)list, which mentions specific firearms that are allowed to be imported. On of the problems when you get into that, for the best example, is the SKS, because eastern europian and soviet ones are on the C&R list but the chinese are not.



actually that wasnt my point but since you brought it up i may as well incorporate it. what im asking is - exactly what is the reasoning behind these laws?

as you noted, my yugo sks is on the C&R list, but a chinese is not and would fall under 922 i assume? the guns are exactly the same, why the law?

what deos a parts count have to do with anything? why is this law needed? what is the activity it defends against?

my example was the auto weapons ban, for obvious reasons of massive firepower fully automatic weapons are banned. you cant get a full auto weapon without first getting permisson from your local gov reps.

on the other hand i dont understand 922, or the other laws like it. i dont understand why you cant for instance take any ak, modify it so it only fires semi auto. and sell it in the us. why must receivers be cut in half? or other measures taken to first render a gun practically useless before it can be resold? full auto or not? same capability as a typical hunting rifle or not. the term sporting is pretty loose. why are the laws not based on capability? or like i said, am i just misunderstanding?


ps, i am in no way saying that i would like to NOT follow the laws, i would just like to see the reasoning behind its implementation. if the actual reason is to ALLOW the importation of certain guns, why not just make an amendment to the original ban?

[okie shooter]

actually that wasnt my point but since you brought it up i may as well incorporate it. what im asking is - exactly what is the reasoning behind these laws?

Guess the reason for these laws, in my opnion, is there are two schools of thought on guns, one says that the guns are evil, thus ban them, or the evil features. This thought arose after the shooting in california with a akm/ak-47 in the eighties. The influx of these weapons first from china, then after they were banned from china, the rest of the world started flowing here. This made those folks that think guns or the evil features are the problem wanting to ban guns. Thus more gun laws restricting the types of guns you can own, or like in california the total ban and requriement of registration of those in existance.

My thinking is the problem is people, those who break the laws by misusing firearms to commit crimes. Punish the folks who break the laws, not those who obey the laws.

I guess a related idea is what was behind the NFA of 1934, which put a transfer tax on machine guns, it for a while slowed down the manufacture of machine guns for the general public, before the 86 ban on making any more for the general public, the cost of a machine gun was not much more than a semi auto variant of the gun, just the transfer tax prohibited many from wanting one. Now the transfer tax is chump change compared to the value of the pistol, heck even cheap m-10's and such that are transferable are worth ten to twenty times what they were before the change in the law. Thus there wasnt much teeth in the 34 act, when the value of a dollar shot thru the floor(in 1934 folks worked for months to earn 200 dollars now many folks make that each day if not for some a few hours and I aint talking lawyers and doctors either)

[Perro]

what im asking is - exactly what is the reasoning behind these laws?
it is all legislation brought to us by your ELECTED officials. Face it, some people are just scared of guns. It gets worse every year too


as you noted, my yugo sks is on the C&R list, but a chinese is not and would fall under 922 i assume? the guns are exactly the same, why the law?
nothing to do with C&R, this has to do with import restrictions against china - totally different thing


what deos a parts count have to do with anything? why is this law needed? what is the activity it defends against?
i already explained this to you above - in 1989 they banned importation of non sporting firearms AND THERE CLONES. They HANDED us a backdoor to get around this by defining what is considered imported, and what is not. that is why its important. Without that "definition" of what is imported, and what is not, ALL OF YOUR GUNS BROUGHT IN OR MADE AFTER 1989 would be illegal.


my example was the auto weapons ban, for obvious reasons of massive firepower fully automatic weapons are banned. you cant get a full auto weapon without first getting permisson from your local gov reps.
incorrect
fully automatic weapons are not banned - the manufacture of new full auto weapons made after 1986 are what is banned - everything made before may of 1986 and registered into the national firearms registry before then is still 100% legal.
If you live in a state that allows machine guns, all you have to do is get a sign off from your chief law enforcement officer that he knows of nothing preventing you from owning it. No gov reps permission needed, just the sherriff, or local chief law enforcement officer.


on the other hand i dont understand 922, or the other laws like it.
922r is only a definition inside the law. it tells you what constitutes an imported firearm, and what makes a US made firearm. it is our loophole


i dont understand why you cant for instance take any ak, modify it so it only fires semi auto. and sell it in the us.
you CAN do this - many companies already do, but they were banned from importation in 1989 so if you made an ak out of all imported parts, you are in violation of 1989 and you have an illegal gun.



why must receivers be cut in half? or other measures taken to first render a gun practically useless before it can be resold?
that falls under import restrictions - the second ammendment does not cover your right to buy parts, it covers your right to own and bear arms. The govt can fully, and legally say what must be done to this material before it can be imported. If the parts were made in the USA, they dont say anything, but since they must be imported, they get to dictate what can, and cant be imported. Currently receivers, and barrels cannot be imported. They could make the importers completely remove the receiver, and the barrel, but instead, they allow them to torch cut the parts to turn them into scrap metal and those parts can be brought into the US. Im sure if the importer had to pay all the extra labor to completely remove all receiver scraps, and barrels before importing them, most wouldnt bother importing them at all, or they would charge alot more money for the extra labor required to completely remove, instead of pass a torch acrossed it.



full auto or not? same capability as a typical hunting rifle or not. the term sporting is pretty loose. why are the laws not based on capability? or like i said, am i just misunderstanding?
your ELECTED officials make the laws - you have the ability to remove your elected officials, and also the ability to try and get bad laws repealed. Its all part of our system. Nobody here can grasp the why part, but it is the way it is, and it got that way cause we let it.



ps, i am in no way saying that i would like to NOT follow the laws, i would just like to see the reasoning behind its implementation. if the actual reason is to ALLOW the importation of certain guns, why not just make an amendment to the original ban?

if youre looking to your fellow gun owner for answers as to why, youre looking in the wrong place.
Your representatives (both local, and state) are trying to look out for everyones best interest, and that is why they pass laws (many other reasons too, but lets keep it simple). Just like allowing the people to drink alcohol, and then drive without punishment would get alot more people killed each year, this also applies to firearms. If they let anybody walk into a gun store and buy a full auto ak 47 for $200.00 there would be ALOT more virginia tech style shootings each year.

i aint trying to be rude, but youre basically preaching to the choir here

[SteelCore]

"if you repealed 922r today, everything you own made after 1989 would be illegal
unconstitutional or not, the 1989 ban is on the books, and if you get rid of 922r before you get rid of 1989, youve just screwed yourself."

_>Sums it up nicely...thanks 4 that perro.

[MicroPilot]

Doesn't this also mean that a US compnay can manufacture "foreign" style weapons. For example the semi-auto MP5's that are out there. A US company could manufacture an AK pattern semi-auto rifle and be perfectly legit.

On the full-auto weapons don't you also need to pay the feds $200 for a "stamp" to legally own one?

[okie shooter]

This discussion deals with imported parts, thus if a us company decided to entirely use new parts to make a firearm that is banned from import, in a semi auto variant they could and they do. But why if all you need to do is use less than ten parts to not be defined as imported? Even the PTR rifles use imported parts.

On full auto manufacture, there is none(for the general public), the amount of full auto stuff available to the US general public now fixed, since 1986, there will be no more made unless that is changed, thus yes you can pay 200 for a transfer of a fa weapon(just not a new one). New FA weapons are only for LEO and Military.

[IMBLITZVT]

"I just got 4,400rds of good 308 for just under 22 cents a round!!!! "

That's the REAL story here...Whatt a snag...I'm looking for that kinda deal! Do tell!

Actually is 6K rounds at 22 cents each! Now one friend gets 1K and me and another friend split the rest. My take is 2.5K rounds! This should keep me happy for the next year or so. I will have to shoot it slowly.

I think I am also getting about 3.3K of 8mm for under 14 cents a round. How is the turk ammo? Its about 1.5K of turk that I might not get...

[weasel_master]

I'v never shot turk but people say to stay away from it. At least in a beltfed people stray away.

[SteelCore]

PM me if you guys have....uh, extra....or another deal in the worx.

[cetme]

All I know is that if you start pissing on:anim_nutkick: the ATFE you end up with a beartrap on your pecker.

[IMBLITZVT]

PM me if you guys have....uh, extra....or another deal in the worx.

Steelcore, thats a nice dream... nope it a one time shot and no extra right now.