another potential problem...

[averagejoe]

Gun Control Bill Seeks to Close 'Terror Gap'
By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Senior Editor
May 02, 2007

(CNSNews.com) - A Second Amendment group says Attorney General Alberto Gonzales should resign as the nation's highest ranking law enforcement officer, given his "troubling support" for a new gun control bill that seeks to close the "terror gap" in federal law.

S. 1237 would give the attorney general, a presidential appointee, the authority to suspend or cancel someone's Second Amendment right, even if that person has never been charged with a crime, the Second Amendment Foundation warned.

At the Justice Department's request, the bill was introduced last week by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), whom SAF describes as one of the most extreme anti-gunners in Congress.

The "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007" would give the attorney general discretionary authority to deny the purchase of firearms (or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses) to "known or suspected terrorists." The bill has been referred to Judiciary Committee.

The Second Amendment Foundation warned the bill would allow the attorney general to block gun sales "because of some vague suspicion that an American citizen may be up to no good."

SAF founder Alan Gottlieb said the bill "raises serious concerns about how someone becomes a 'suspected terrorist.' Nobody has explained how one gets their name on such a list, and worse, nobody knows how to get one's name off such a list."

There's also a larger concern, Gottlieb added: "When did we decide as a nation that it is a good idea to give a cabinet member the power to deny someone's constitutional right simply on suspicion, without a trial or anything approaching due process?"

Under the federal Brady Act, licensed firearm dealers must request background checks on all would-be gun buyers. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is supposed to bar convicted felons and mentally unstable people from buying guns.

But Gonzales and Sen. Lautenberg worry that there is no provision to deny "suspected terrorists" from purchasing a gun.

In January 2005, the Government Accountability Office reported that during one five-month period (Feb. 3-June 30, 2004), people designated by the federal government as "known or suspected terrorists" tried to purchase a total of 44 firearms.

The GAO said in 35 cases, the FBI allowed the transactions to proceed because field agents were unable to find any disqualifying information as stipulated in the Brady Act.

In March 2005, Sen. Lautenberg asked Attorney General Gonzales and FBI Director Robert Mueller to look into the matter.

In response, the Justice Department created a working group that produced the recommendations on which Lautenberg's bill is based.

Lautenberg's website says his bill would deny gun purchases to "known or suspected terrorists" in cases where the attorney general "reasonably believes that the person may use a firearm or explosives in connection with terrorism."

Lautenberg said his bill includes "due process safeguards" that would allow people to challenge the attorney general's denial of a firearm purchase or license; and it would protect "the sensitive information upon which terrorist watch list listings are based."

Many Americans have complained about the secret government "watch lists" used to screen airline passengers.

"We're not surprised that General Gonzales has found an agreeable sponsor in Frank Lautenberg," Gottlieb said. "The senator from New Jersey has never seen a restrictive gun control scheme he did not immediately embrace, and S. 1237 is loaded with red flags.

"Attorney General Gonzales has no business asking for that kind of power over any tenet in the Bill of Rights," Gottlieb said. "He took an oath to uphold the Constitution, not trample it. Perhaps it is time for him to go."







don't know if anyone else has seen this. might want to send some more emails to your representatives.

[okie shooter]

We are a unique nation, that we extend most of our rights to non citizens while here, and even allow non citizens to have children here that become, if they choose, citizens. Thats not the case in much of the world.

[iocane]

"In January 2005, the Government Accountability Office reported that during one five-month period (Feb. 3-June 30, 2004), people designated by the federal government as "known or suspected terrorists" tried to purchase a total of 44 firearms."

Well since on 9/11 the weapon used by terrorist to take the airplanes were boxcutters. So shouldn't there be a law banning suspected terrorist from getting boxcutters. Also what is the gun dealer suposed to say, "sorry you can't buy the gun, your a suspected terrorist". Then suspected terrorist calls his friends and tells them the feds are on to them, start the bombing immediately. Also that article gives the impression there is a whole lot of suspected terrorist out there. Sounds like a good reason for more people to be armed, since America is supposenly flooded with terrorist.
Now is America flooded with terrorist or not. If there is not a whole bunch of terrorist here, no excuse for stupid law. Now if there is a whole bunch of terrorist here, shouldn't everyone then buy guns, canned food, and build bombshelters. Really the premise for the law is contradictory and ridiculous. Its the sort of law that might get suggested if the country was in a civil war or invasion. Its apparent that the anti-gun politicians are the ones wearing the tin foil hats.

[okie shooter]

Not stoping box cutters will help but read this

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_re_us/fort_dix_plot


6 charged with plot on Army post in N.J.
By WAYNE PARRY, Associated Press Writer 5 minutes ago


Six Islamic militants from Yugoslavia and the Middle East were arrested on charges of plotting to attack the Fort Dix Army base and "kill as many soldiers as possible," authorities said Tuesday.
"This was a serious plot put together by people who were intent on harming Americans," U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie said. "We're very gratified federal law enforcement was able to catch these people before they acted and took innocent life."
One suspect reportedly spoke of using rocket-propelled grenades to kill at least 100 soldiers at a time, according to court documents.
"If you want to do anything here, there is Fort Dix and I don't want to exaggerate, and I assure you that you can hit an American base very easily," suspect Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer said in a conversation last August that was secretly recorded by a government informant, according to the criminal complaint against him.
White House spokesman Tony Snow said Tuesday there is "no direct evidence" that the men have ties to international terrorism.
In court documents, prosecutors said the suspects came to the attention of authorities in January 2006 when a shopkeeper alerted the FBI about a "disturbing" video he had been asked to copy onto a DVD.
The video showed 10 men in their early 20s "shooting assault weapons at a firing range ... while calling for jihad and shouting in Arabic 'Allah Akbar' (God is great)," the complaint said. Six of the 10 were identified as those arrested in the plot.
"What concerns us is, obviously, they began conducting surveillance and weapons training in the woods and were discussing killing large numbers of soldiers," Boyd said.
Christie said one of the suspects worked at Super Mario's Pizza in nearby Cookstown and delivered pizzas to the base, using that opportunity to scout out a possible attack.
The six were scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court in Camden later Tuesday to face charges of conspiracy to kill U.S. servicemen, said Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in New Jersey. They were arrested Monday trying to buy automatic weapons from an FBI informant.
Officials said four of the men were born in the former Yugoslavia, one in Jordan and one in Turkey. All had lived in the United States for years. Three were in the United States illegally; two had green cards allowing them to stay in this country permanently; the other is a U.S. citizen.
Besides Shnewer, the other five men were identified in court papers as Dritan Duka, Eljvir Duka, Shain Duka, Serdar Tatar and Agron Abdullahu. Checks with Immigration and Customs Enforcement show that Dritan Duka, Eljvir Duka and Shain Duka are illegally living in the United States, according to FBI complaints unsealed with their arrests.
Five of the men lived in Cherry Hill, a Philadelphia suburb about 20 miles from Fort Dix.
"They were planning an attack on Fort Dix in which they would kill as many soldiers as possible," Drewniak said.
A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because documents in the case remain sealed, said the attack was stopped in the planning stages. The men also allegedly conducted surveillance at other area military institutions, including Fort Monmouth, a U.S. Army installation, the official said.
By March 2006, the group had been infiltrated by an informant who developed a relationship with Shnewer, according to court documents. The informant secretly recorded meetings in August 2006 in which Shnewer said that he and the other suspects were part of a group planning to attack a U.S. military base, the complaints said.
Shnewer named Fort Dix and a nearby Navy base, explaining that the group "could utilize six or seven jihadists to attack and kill at least one hundred soldiers by using rocket-propelled grenades" or other weapons, the complaint said. The Navy base was not named in the complaint.

Fort Dix is used to train soldiers, particularly reservists. It also housed refugees from Kosovo in 1999.
Soldiers at Fort Dix have been training for warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan, said Jeff Sagnip, a spokesman for Republican U.S. Rep. James Saxton, who represents Fort Dix. The base typically has about 15,000 people, including 3,000 soldiers.
"Everything is a replica of what they would face in the field," he said.
The base has been closed to the public since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. There are heavily armed guards at entrances, along with X-ray machines. Yet the main road through neighboring Cookstown cuts through the base and is accessible to the public. A half-dozen locations on the base, including at least two where soldiers were conducting maneuvers Tuesday morning, were only a few hundred yards off the main road.
The description of the suspects as "Islamic militants" renewed fears in New Jersey's Muslim community. Hundreds of Muslim men from New Jersey were rounded up and detained by authorities in the months following the 2001 attacks, but none was connected to that plot.
"If these people did something, then they deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law," said Sohail Mohammed, a lawyer who represented many of the detainees. "But when the government says 'Islamic militants,' it sends a message to the public that Islam and militancy are synonymous.
"Don't equate actions with religion," he said.
___ Associated Press Writers Matt Apuzzo and Ben Feller in Washington, Geoff Mulvihill in Mount Laurel, Tom Hester Jr. in Trenton and Jeffrey Gold in Newark contributed to this story.

Admititally, they tried to buy illegal firearms, but I am not sure how tight it is for non citizens and non residents to buy firearms, especallly if they just lie and don't turn up on a list either.

[SteelCore]

I kept hoping they'd whack Gozales after all the firings He OKed. I KNEW he was a sheister when GW appointed him.

[Rampager]

Once again another empty gun law that will accomplish nothing other than make some people feel good. Sounds good to uninformed soccer moms I'm sure.

Hey, I'm all for keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists, but first we need to keep people that can't pass a back ground check from setting foot in this country to begin with.

My main problem with this law is that it simply won't work. Anyone who is a true "terrorist" would know he's probably on a watch list and will simply get a "clean" sympathizer (girlfriend whatever) to buy the guns for him. In other words, he will get the guns illegally because he is a criminal terrorist, so this law will do nothing. What it probably will do is keep some poor honest slob that has the misfortune of having the same name as someone on the list from legally buying a gun though.

[okie shooter]

I imagine terrorists and criminals both get their guns the old fashioned way, they steal them. They aint following any rules as normal operateing procedures.

[averagejoe]

"When did we decide as a nation that it is a good idea to give a cabinet member the power to deny someone's constitutional right simply on suspicion, without a trial or anything approaching due process?"



regardless of the potential impact on gun ownership, this is the part that scares me.

[okie shooter]

Joe, we did that in 1942 for over a hundred thousand, it’s something we are good at, when the expedient or fear drive folks to do it. Plus the supreme court of this country backed it.

Though I guess if you are a foreign national, here legally or illegally, and on a watch list that can substantiate your identity, should you have the right to buy firearms, or are you feeling that this might extend to domestic terrorists and become a free for all to label folks that the government feels unable to own firearms responsibly.

[iocane]

Shnewer named Fort Dix and a nearby Navy base, explaining that the group "could utilize six or seven jihadists to attack and kill at least one hundred soldiers by using rocket-propelled grenades"
"Christie said one of the suspects worked at Super Mario's Pizza in nearby Cookstown and delivered pizzas to the base, using that opportunity to scout out a possible attack."

Okay, we need a law banning terrorist from owning rocket-propelled grenades and delivering pizza.

[averagejoe]

[QUOTE=okie shooter;16648]Joe, we did that in 1942 for over a hundred thousand, it’s something we are good at, when the expedient or fear drive folks to do it. Plus the supreme court of this country backed it.

exactly...when fear or expediency cloud the judgement of normally responsible citizens. for me the difference is that this war on terror will not end anytime soon, if ever. it can potentially always be used as justification for ever more stringent regulation of our daily lives. all this in the name of safety and protection of a populace that is not resolved to personally prepare and protect themselves. giving this administration or any other administration "emergency powers" is dangerous, but when looking at the moral and societal degradation of our nation over the last 65 years since those controls in WWII, i am mortified of the potential for abuse. its a slippery slope and our missteps are going to cost us.

[MicroPilot]

...Though I guess if you are a foreign national, here legally or illegally, and on a watch list that can substantiate your identity, should you have the right to buy firearms, or are you feeling that this might extend to domestic terrorists and become a free for all to label folks that the government feels unable to own firearms responsibly. [/COLOR]

Something people sometimes overlook is that the rights defined in the Constitution are universal. It was the founding fathers thinking that these rights and others not written down are things that ALL men, not just US citizens, have and can't be denied by ANY government.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...

The "Bill of Rights" just defines some of these unalienable rights.