CETME Mars questions

[milsurp425]

Hi, first i'm new to the forum. It's been a great resource for someone considering picking up a CAI CETME.

I have some questions about the CETME Mars I hope the experts could help me out with.

Are they that difficult to find? I've read multiple posts discussing their scarcity. But right now I see three for sale on GB, is that rare?

There seems to be two categories. NIB mint with accessories, and ones that may or may not have accessories that have been fired showing some degree of use. How does this affect their value?

Have these guns been been affected by unscrupulous sellers producing humped guns? It's a big problem in the K98 world.

Thanks!

[M1 Tanker]

Welcome Milsurp. I'm by no means a Mars expert, but I think I can help some.

They are hard to find, they have not been imported since the 1960's and it wasn't a huge number of them that were imported. I've seen them on gunbroker before I can't say I've ever seen 3 at once. They are definately out there for sale though.

I'll skip your value question...I think NIB like miles on a car. The more miles, the less its worth.

No, you won't find a humped up gun in the Mars. If the receiver says MARs on it, its the real deal. Now if it has SS runes and a totenkopf on it...well... you already know to run away :)

[rpmfly2]

Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has several I think! PM him for aditional information!

[milsurp425]

Who's "he"? And thanks for the welcome!

[holescreek]

I saw/held my first H&K G3 original import (can't remember what it said on the side now) this weekend at the OGCA show. Strange seeing the FCG pinned on. The seller wanted $1500 for it. IIRC he said he was the original purchaser in 1963 and that there weren't many brought in? Condition was very good, I have no idea if the price was in line.

[drine]

I saw/held my first H&K G3 original import (can't remember what it said on the side now) this weekend at the OGCA show. Strange seeing the FCG pinned on. The seller wanted $1500 for it. IIRC he said he was the original purchaser in 1963 and that there weren't many brought in? Condition was very good, I have no idea if the price was in line.
If it said MARS it's about $1k LESS than normal. Seems $2400.00 was the going price a while back. More or less now depending on the market.
3 or 4 guys on this site have one.

[mojojojo]

I have a real jones for the Mars Cetme and have accumulated 3 of them over the last few years. The Mars imports were near works of art and (IMHO) are superior to their HK spin-offs in finish (seamless welds) and accurracy (1-1.5 MOA from the one 1 shoot).

Be advised...many of their trigger parts are different than the current imports.

[okie shooter]

Well you have plenty of comments up here, the MARS rifles are kinda of the Holy Grail of the CETME world, I have seen a couple in person, two at one gun show, because one was for sale, and the other was taken to Fjestad's(the author of the gun blue book) table so he could look at. That said, the guy who had the one for sale, thougut I was just a duffer, and didn't know what he had, but when I could tell him more about it, it seemed to just piss him off a little.

They don't get out on too many tables at shows, but at the big tulsa show they are there.

[jfowl31]

I saw/held my first H&K G3 original import (can't remember what it said on the side now) this weekend at the OGCA show. Strange seeing the FCG pinned on. The seller wanted $1500 for it. IIRC he said he was the original purchaser in 1963 and that there weren't many brought in? Condition was very good, I have no idea if the price was in line.

If you saw a Santa Fe G3 and did NOT buy it for $1500.... start kicking yourself now and continue for many days... Those go for well over $5-6K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even a Mars at that price is a steal, but a Santa Fe G3 is an UNREAL deal... like "hotter than a 2 dollar pistol" good!

[jfowl31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK41

Most notably...


An original 1966 model with the push-pin hole in the receiver can sell for around $8500. These are very scarce because most of them were used as hosts for full-auto conversions prior to the May 1986 Machinegun Ban. A 1962 Semi-Auto HKG3 can sell for over $10,000.

In other words, if you got the info of the seller CALL HIM IMMEDIATELY and reserve it!

[holescreek]

If you saw a Santa Fe G3 and did NOT buy it for $1500.... start kicking yourself now and continue for many days... Those go for well over $5-6K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even a Mars at that price is a steal, but a Santa Fe G3 is an UNREAL deal... like "hotter than a 2 dollar pistol" good!

Santa Fe. I think that might have been what it said. I do remember that the lettering was colored in, parts in white, others in red. I'll have to look for it at the next show (July). I don't have the money to buy guns at the gun show, usually just go scrounging for parts. The OGCA is a members only show 6X a year. Not unusual for the average Joe to drop 10k in a couple hours there but my name aint Joe. I saw a well used PSG1 at the March show that the guy wanted 17k for, he didn't have it with him last weekend.

[bladeworks123]

Like this?

[holescreek]

The rifle I saw still had the small pin through the paddle holding the FCG up. There was no shelf of any kind. That was what caught my attention and caused me to ask to pick it up. The forearm had the thin horizontal grooves like the one in the top right photo. I'm sure now it was a santa fe, with the white lettering.

So you guys are saying that if I see it in July, I should offer the guy $1200? :rolleyes:

[bladeworks123]

Hand him the 1200 with one hand and grab the rifle with both hands....

[jfowl31]

Offer $1200 and pay him his asking price if he doesn't budge. You could make a helluva profit selling it on the internets... HKPRO members would DIE for that rifle.

[7.62guy]

The rifle I saw still had the small pin through the paddle holding the FCG up. There was no shelf of any kind. That was what caught my attention and caused me to ask to pick it up. The forearm had the thin horizontal grooves like the one in the top right photo. I'm sure now it was a santa fe, with the white lettering.

So you guys are saying that if I see it in July, I should offer the guy $1200? :rolleyes:

your one lucky man if you see him and that rifle at the same place.:rockon:

[bladeworks123]

Here is the pic I was looking for the other night and couldn't find on my 16gb Hk/CETME thumb drive....

[glennwih]

I have seen 1 MARS in my entire life. I have been to 50 gun shows in CA., NV., Oregon and AZ. It was slightly rusty but hte guy wanted 2600. It looked very well built and the guy was in no hurry to sell.

[Perro Del Diablo]

1258 MARS CETME rifles were imported into the USA
thats VERY rare considering that Hk imported 48,817 HK91s into country by 1989


a santa fe g3 above sold locally in vegas for $15,000.00 at discount firearms on boulder highway 8 or so years ago.
i personally got to fondle it before it went across state lines to its new owner, and i snapped lots of pics of it.

i also agree that the MARS CETME is superior to any german made gun - including the santa fe g3 - the craftsmanship on the MARS CETME is way better

[Buddymack]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=187371002

I was looking at a couple last night not because anytime soon I can afford one, unless maybe a certain President of a certain company gives raises that are worth a hoot or maybe someone out there really really likes me ...
so nah I don't think I will ever own one but I was certainly interested in why they are so much for Mars Industries ..
I saw three and the range was anywhere from three to just under 4000...
that is a M1 and a M1A to me or a few different kits or half a real well planned Fal...

[Perro Del Diablo]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=187371002

I was looking at a couple last night not because anytime soon I can afford one, unless maybe a certain President of a certain company gives raises that are worth a hoot or maybe someone out there really really likes me ...
so nah I don't think I will ever own one but I was certainly interested in why they are so much for Mars Industries ..
I saw three and the range was anywhere from three to just under 4000...
that is a M1 and a M1A to me or a few different kits or half a real well planned Fal...

Mars was simply the importer, they worked out a deal with the Spanish factorys who made the firearms for the Spanish military, and they had them shipped to a port for a very small amount of money - when i get home today i will get the information for you.

and no offense to those who like the M1, M1a and FN FAL, but i have owned all 4 rifles mentioned and in my opinion, the MARS CETME is the better firearm out of all mentioned. Opinion of course, but i will always hold a special place in my heart for El Chopo, and i regret selling mine to Big Steve :g3:

[Buddymack]

Well it just comes to show you it's a fine rifle if someone sets it up the right way from the beginning, it would seem to be if the rifle is this good then it would be best to either build it yourself or go with a rifle building company to get a better product in the end...so probably the amount slightly over 3000 isn't too bad then and if you have a rare deal if it's real at 1200 then what Bladeworks said is absolutely true,...some will say the PTR91 hits that mark but anyone who reads this forum and others knows that even PTR91's are not perfect either...but probably a much better investment to make if you can't afford the MARS version.

[Perro Del Diablo]

$108.25 FOB the Madrid airport in Spain
Mars retailed the gun with 1 5 round magazine, bipod, and sling from between $164.95 all the way through $218.00 and then Centennial Arms Corp (Mars' succesor company) sold them for $239.95 with sling, and with a detachable adjustable bipod (im assuming a Modelo C style bipod) for an extra $19.95

the Mars was imported from March 11, 1965 through February 18th 1971

if you want a CHEAP rifle then anyone can build there own, and you may very well do a REALLY nice job on it, but in the long run, it will NEVER be as rare, or as desireable as a MARS CETME. The MARS CETME is the only REAL CETME available

you can buy a flat and make a rifle yourself and it may shoot just as nicely as a HK 91, but it will never be made in Obendorf by HK
sorta depends on what you are looking for, cheap, or collectable

[AGG1]

$108.25 FOB the Madrid airport in Spain
Mars retailed the gun with 1 5 round magazine, bipod, and sling from between $164.95 all the way through $218.00 and then Centennial Arms Corp (Mars' succesor company) sold them for $239.95 with sling, and with a detachable adjustable bipod (im assuming a Modelo C style bipod) for an extra $19.95

the Mars was imported from March 11, 1965 through February 18th 1971

if you want a CHEAP rifle then anyone can build there own, and you may very well do a REALLY nice job on it, but in the long run, it will NEVER be as rare, or as desireable as a MARS CETME. The MARS CETME is the only REAL CETME available

you can buy a flat and make a rifle yourself and it may shoot just as nicely as a HK 91, but it will never be made in Obendorf by HK
sorta depends on what you are looking for, cheap, or collectable

Your knowledge of the MARS CETME never ceases to amaze me!!! :eek:

Queries: :wink:

On the number imported (1258), how many were B- and S- prefixes?
Why the difference in SN markings (i.e., S-XXXXX and S=XXXXX)?
Can you tell from the SN about what year a certain rifle was imported?

Tony

[glennwih]

I have seen 1 in my life and it was 50% rusty. The dude still wanted 2600.

[oldpaint0]

$108.25 fob the madrid airport in spain
mars retailed the gun with 1 5 round magazine, bipod, and sling from between $164.95 all the way through $218.00 and then centennial arms corp (mars' succesor company) sold them for $239.95 with sling, and with a detachable adjustable bipod (im assuming a modelo c style bipod) for an extra $19.95

the mars was imported from march 11, 1965 through february 18th 1971

if you want a cheap rifle then anyone can build there own, and you may very well do a really nice job on it, but in the long run, it will never be as rare, or as desireable as a mars cetme. The mars cetme is the only real cetme available

you can buy a flat and make a rifle yourself and it may shoot just as nicely as a hk 91, but it will never be made in obendorf by hk
sorta depends on what you are looking for, cheap, or collectable

amen!

[Perro Del Diablo]

Your knowledge of the MARS CETME never ceases to amaze me!!! :eek:

Queries: :wink:

On the number imported (1258), how many were B- and S- prefixes?
Why the difference in SN markings (i.e., S-XXXXX and S=XXXXX)?
Can you tell from the SN about what year a certain rifle was imported?

Tony

1254 S prefix serial numbers (854 imported before 68 GCA, 400 after)

1 original prototype Modelo B serial number b19558 submitted to the ATF tech branch for classification. It had a pin on trigger pack in the same spot as a full auto - was classified as a full auto by ATF with trigger pack to close to the full auto CETME - i believe this was forfeited to the ATF tech branch.

1 original prototype modelo B serial number B19561 which had the redesigned large block behind the magwell to pin the trigger pack to.
Submitted to ATF and approved as legal semi auto

1 original Modelo B Cutaway model for demonstration - unsure of serial number on this one


during this time frame Spain had advanced from the Modelo B to the Modelo C so they sent another submission production prototype sample in Modelo C form with the serial number C-35030 that conformed to the changes made with B19561


best i can provide with several different sources

[AGG1]

1254 S prefix serial numbers (854 imported before 68 GCA, 400 after)

1 original prototype Modelo B serial number b19558 submitted to the ATF tech branch for classification. It had a pin on trigger pack in the same spot as a full auto - was classified as a full auto by ATF with trigger pack to close to the full auto CETME - i believe this was forfeited to the ATF tech branch.

1 original prototype modelo B serial number B19561 which had the redesigned large block behind the magwell to pin the trigger pack to.
Submitted to ATF and approved as legal semi auto

1 original Modelo B Cutaway model for demonstration - unsure of serial number on this one


during this time frame Spain had advanced from the Modelo B to the Modelo C so they sent another submission production prototype sample in Modelo C form with the serial number C-35030 that conformed to the changes made with B19561


best i can provide with several different sources

All I can say is :eek:!!!
My CETME came with two of the original submission letters (1964/1965)--- I believe with the numbers that you mention (or very close thereto). :rockon:
My information has the S-Series SN's starting at 0210X--- so can I infer from that that the pre-68's would be 0210X- about 02954 (the highest S-Series that I have seen is 0272X)? :wink:
What about the S-XXXX and S=XXXX? :confused:

Tony

[Perro Del Diablo]

im not quite sure i understand what you are asking about with this



What about the S-XXXX and S=XXXX? :confused:

[AGG1]

im not quite sure i understand what you are asking about with this

Some of the SN's that I have seen have a "dash" (i.e., S "-" XXXXX) and some have an "equals" (i.e., S "=" XXXXX)!!! :eek:
Or are my eyes playing tricks on me? :rolleyes:

Are there SN's above S-027XX? :eek:

Tony

[Perro Del Diablo]

I can't say that i have ever seen a MARS CETME with the serial number S = XXXXXX

the only MARS CETMEs i have ever seen have had a S prefix with a dash and then the serial number followed by a star
sorta like S-02750 *

doesnt mean there cant be one, just that i have never seen one. Maybe you can show pictures?? Either way i dont remember anything about it.

i have pictures of the 3 MARS modelo Bs, and the 1 with the C prefix somewhere, if i run across them i will post them. Buddy Hinton @ Sturmgewehr also had some pictures of the Modelo B MARS CETMEs on his sight and i even think the C prefix gun, but they had the serials blotted out. not sure if they are still on his website.

no specific information on when the serial numbers ended, just a total #

[Perro Del Diablo]

here are Buddys pics of the MARS CETME Modelo B initial prototype B19558 that had the pin on trigger pack too close to the original full auto and was ruled as a full auto and surrendered to ATF (from my understanding)

[Perro Del Diablo]

here is the Modelo B cutaway - unsure of serial number on this one

[AGG1]

I have seen Buddy's pics but have not seen the cutaway pic--- thanks!!! :eek:
There was a MARS CETME listed on GB, that I was going to link, that had the markings painted--- the "=" could have been a "-". :rolleyes:
However, based upon all that I have seen, this same "=" appears on 258X through 272X--- all painted markings (except for 269X, which is not painted)--- so, the "=" could be an illusion. :wink:

Tony

[vista461]

What's with the underlining and random bolding?

[bladeworks123]

Was it MARS that caused the Modelo B safety to shift sides, or was that done by the Spaniards on later Modelo B's. I had a Modelo B FCG housing and safety lever. I dont recall exactly, but I think I remember the trigger guard was also more rectangular....

[Perro Del Diablo]

you have to remember that at the time that they submitted the samples to MARS to turn into the ATF for production samples that they were transitioning to the Modelo C in Spain

they were also tasked with taking the standard CETME select fire trigger pack and making it semi auto

the cutaway MARS production sample has Modelo B parts in it, but a Modelo C grip frame, grip, and safety selector.

I assume that since the grip frame, grip, and safety was new, and since this was to be a sporter rifle, and that they would need to make it semi auto only, that they just used some new made lowers on the production samples. look at the non cutaway sample - it is only marked S and F with the S at top, and the F at bottom (like a HK91) clearly semi auto which would be MARS only

all the pics i have of the Modelo B in service all have the Modelo B lower, Modelo B grips, and Modelo B safety

all 3 of the Modelo Bs submitted by Mars have the C style lower.

im still searching my disks for the other pics of the 4 non S series MARS CETMEs and i will post as i run across the pics


i have no idea why they would make some with a S=XXXX * serial number instead of a standard marking??
i have never even heard of it until now, but that doesnt mean it aint true

[Perro Del Diablo]

found 1 more of the cutaway (the article in this mag is about the MARS import BTW)

still looking and will add as i find them

[bladeworks123]

You are right by golly, those are all Hk housings, didn't even notice that...

[Perro Del Diablo]

not HK
CETME C, but modified for semi auto

found another of the B19558

[bladeworks123]

not HK
CETME C, but modified for semi auto

found another of the B19558

So how did they modify the "C" FCG and sucessfully get the Safe position up top? That top picture in Post 32 sure looks like an SEF housing with a CETME safety lever.

[Perro Del Diablo]

So how did they modify the "C" FCG and sucessfully get the Safe position up top? That top picture in Post 32 sure looks like an SEF housing with a CETME safety lever.

the same way they did it on the MARS S series CETME (which was a Modelo C and used some Modelo C parts) :wink:

you can tell it is CETME because the trigger guard is round
go look at your G3 trigger guard and you will see it is much more squared

[Perro Del Diablo]

the MARS S CETME used a different safety selector than a Modelo C

if you stop and play with your safety selector for a bit you will notice it has cuts on the shaft that either let the gun fire in full auto, semi auto only, or not at all

they just moved the cuts on the safety selector shaft so that it fired in the down position instead of the up position ;)

[bladeworks123]

I'm aware they are different, but I saw the dog leg safety which looks CETME, and the Safe in the Up position which is Hk, and couldn't make the two match up in my mind, That the MARS also has a different and modified safety, with the grooves in a different position, is the answer to my original question,,,,How'd they do that?

[Perro Del Diablo]

i was fortunate enough to own a MARS CETME for many years, and was shocked to see standard C trigger parts in it (sans the full auto safety sear of course), and it took me a minute till i figured it out too.
if you look at the shaft, it is attached to the thumb switch as a basic rivet with a square head.

at one point in my life i was considering making MARS type safety selectors for the CAI semi auto CETME so you didnt have to move the switch up to fire semi auto, but just never got around to it. I always thought there had to be an easy way to remove the FA shaft from the thumb switch, and replace it with a new shaft and then set the square shaft rivet to the thumb switch.

never happened though

[Perro Del Diablo]

C 35030

notice this sample doesnt have the scope rails welded to the top, but it has the redesigned MARS lower attachment point and semi auto

[HKaltwasser]

The back of the trunnion isnt welded on the Mars? The magwell isnt framed with a ridge. I guess that could make it appear to be nicer looking. Gotta like those scope tabs though.

[Perro Del Diablo]

the back of the trunnion is welded at the rails but it is finished smooth.
same thing with the cocking tube welds. You wont see any weld beads on a MARS CETME because they took the time to make it a first rate firearm.
look at the welds on the scope bases, and rear sight base - flawless and finished perfectly.

CETME magwells have ALWAYS been flat (military or sporter) - you only see a raised ridge on the magwell on the US made receivers - actually they tried making a US made G3 receiver fit to the CETME parts kit so the receivers came from Special Weapons for the cast, and then Hesse for the stamped receivers. Each made originally for the G3

CETME xrayed every single part of the MARS Sporter and made sure each part was 100% flawless before it went into the gun. zero small imperfections in the grain structure of the steel, or any problem areas were allowed to make it into the gun

they made a special mold for a smooth pistol grip, and polished the plastic on the pistol grip until it was mirror bright. They hand selected the best walnut furniture for it and applied a glass finish to the wood. Buttpad was new and nice as well and to secure it they installed plastic bushings inside of the wood stock for the buttpad screws to screw into instead of just drilling wood screws into the wood.

I have owned a HK41, HK91, several clones (FMP, EBO, etc), and i have been able to closely examine 2 Santa Fe G3s. have owned new parts kits from FMP, Enfield, and i have examined the supposed burmese contract parts kits.
without question, the MARS CETME is nicer than all of them put together. They took the time to make certain that rifle was PERFECT.

The CETME gets a bad rap because of the US semi auto conversion by Century arms. Century used some well used parts kits to build there stuff, and shady build practices and out of spec US made parts - hard for anything to work right like that

the CAI G3s were plagued by the same problems as the CETME - in my experiance the CAI G3s were worse.

i can firmly say without a doubt that the MARS CETME is a much nicer firearm than all the rest in the same family tree.

[HKaltwasser]

I've only seen pictures the Mars ,but it sure looks like the trunnion is exposed at the rail. I agree that the scope tab welds look really nice.

[HKaltwasser]

Here's one of the pictures with exposed trunnion. Maybe I'm not seeing it right. It indeed looks very nice.

[bladeworks123]

Here's one of the pictures with exposed trunnion. Maybe I'm not seeing it right. It indeed looks very nice.

They definitely show attention to detail, fit and finish. I find it interesting on this picture that there are no vertical welding relief cuts where the trunnion meets the rail. It's obviously not welded there on this one, and I have heard a lot of different thought on this, but I think it's better if they are. Less chance for the rails to get loose. The rollers, even when they are fit well, can sometimes try to engage when the bolt head enters the trunnion, when that happens, if they are not welded there, the rails can widen out a bit because of the vertical cuts we see on the flats we build on, or cracks can start to develop there. I like the smooth look myself also, it's a lot of work to do one that way as opposed to just welding a bead or puddle welding the trunnion locations.

[Perro Del Diablo]

they are welded at the trunnion
there were vertical relief cuts at the rails

they just finished the welds smooth

it doesnt look welded because they took the time to make it look like it wasnt welded

if you hold it up in the light you can see the difference in the park color where its welded

you will also notice that you dont see the spot welds in the cocking tube, or around the front of the trunnion, and this is because they were finished perfectly flat. You can see the slight color change in the parkerizing where they are welded if you hold it just right in the light