Feds raid suburban New Orleans gun shop.

[LCPL 4]

Feds raid suburban New Orleans gun shop
5/16/2007, 4:32 p.m. CDT
By BRETT MARTEL
The Associated Press

JEFFERSON, La. (AP) — Federal agents seized hundreds of firearms and thousands of rounds of ammunition from a suburban New Orleans gun store Wednesday, accusing the owner and two employees of illegal sales that have helped fuel a burgeoning crime problem in the area.

More than 2,300 firearms sold from Elliot's Gun Shop in the past five years have been tied to crimes in the metropolitan area, including 125 to murder investigations and 500 to illegal drug crimes, said Dave Harper, special agent in charge for the New Orleans field division of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

"Those arrested today were clearly fueling the violent crime problem in the New Orleans area," Harper said. "We're confident we have eliminated a major source of crime guns in the New Orleans area."

Moving vans backed up to shop and a tent was set up next door. In the tent, agents from the Secret Service and the ATF tagged and packed away hundreds of handguns.

Authorities said they uncovered a scheme at the shop that included forging law enforcement officers' signatures and using a photocopy of the officers' law enforcement credentials to purchase handguns from a New York-based distributor at discounted prices.

The distributor has cooperated with the investigation and is not suspected of any wrongdoing, Harper said.

The gun shop also allegedly helped a man — who turned out to be an informant — make an illegal gun purchase as a straw purchase, which is when someone who is eligible to buy firearms fills out the paperwork and buys the firearm, then gives it gun to someone prohibited from buying the weapon because of a criminal record.

Harper said guns sold from the store had an extremely short "time to crime," or the time from the sale of the firearm to the recovery of the firearm during a crime investigation.

Arrested were Herman Eicke, 65 of Kenner, along with Jefferson residents Timothy Harris, 54, and Rebecca Zitzmann, 42.

Eicke is legally the shop's owner, but Harris was the one who really ran the business, Harper said. Harris originally opened the shop under the name Elliot's Small Arms, but he lost his license to sell firearms after being cited numerous times for record-keeping violations.

Eicke, who was one of Harris' employees, then applied for and received a license and the store reopened under the modified name.

"Harris was still running the business even though Eicke held the license," Harper said.

Harris and Zitzmann were arrested Wednesday morning at a vacation home they own on lakefront property in Woodville, Miss. Eicke was arrested while leaving his home in Kenner to go to work at the gun shop.

Harris and Eicke were charged with aggravated identity theft, over which the Secret Service has jurisdiction, while Zitzmann was charged with falsifying firearms records.

Harper declined to speculate about the possible sentences the suspects could get because the investigation was in its early stages and more charges could be forthcoming.

One of the reasons the raid took place at this point in the investigation was the concern that the continue operation of the store posed a threat to public safety, authorities said.

"The level of violence and the level of danger increased as a result of Elliot's and their activity over a number of years," said acting Jefferson Parish Sheriff Newell Normand, whose agency assisted in the 15-month investigation. "Our police contact with criminals with guns has gone up significantly and that created a problem for us out on the streets."

[Optimus Prime]

Wait... they did the right thing for once?

[jlpskydive]

I hope they FRY THEM give them the MAX and even maken up a few charges!!!!! It's crap like that, that ruins it for the rest of us and gives fuel to the anti gunners.

[Rampager]

Great work on the part of the LEO's and ATF :thumbup:. Glad to see these criminals delt with.

[pidaster]

How do we know that they were actually guilty yet?
If they are then I hope they pay dearly.

[okie shooter]

How do we know that they were actually guilty yet?
If they are then I hope they pay dearly.

I agree, how do you prove charges like this, its a tough nut, if the paper work is in order, but a vengiful atf agent and investigators can do things too. Lets hope its in the right.

[Cavalryman]

As always, I hope the truth is found. And, if the truth is what it is alleged to be, I hope they hang them up by their nuts! "Dealers" who knowingly divert firearms to criminals are (in my mind) even worse than their clients because of the trouble they make for law-abiding gun owners and dealers.

[IMBLITZVT]

This whole Straw purchase thing is crap... everyone knows it. I would never do it, for my own reasons if not because its against the law, but its still crap. I do not see a whole lot of proof here. The charges are not very good for being involved in the supply of guns to criminals!!!

I mean if they are doing it, I hope they spend a good bit of time in jail. BUT I will side with them until the ATF proves it did something right for a change!

[hunter_la5]

how does one prove a "straw purchase"? does the undercover agent say "oh, by the way, I'm actually buying this for my brother who is a convicted child rapist" or what?

[IMBLITZVT]

Well thats just it... if you say its a present... if you say anything at all that might make someone think its not for you. I mean it could be a serious thing... but then again it might be just crap... I mean its just like the ATF asking you to cut a shotgun barrel to 17 3/4" and they already marked it for you. Yes its short but they are setting you up... I just got a feeling after seeing how crappy those charges are that these guys were not involved in serious crime related issues. If they were then why are they not facing much more serious charges??? I mean if these guys are selling guns to gangs and other crime groups... they could be charge with about 50 other law violations... all being a lot more serious.

If I remember correctly the person who really pushed the whole straw purchase law was actually arrested for violating it because he/she purchased a gun for their son as a present... which is a straw purchase...

[Longhorn789]

How do we know that they were actually guilty yet?
If they are then I hope they pay dearly.


Well said.

[MicroPilot]

I thought it was OK to purchase a gun for someone else as a gift. The straw man purchase comes into play when that purchase is made on behalf of someone who is not allowed to own or purchase guns (a felon, etc.). In that case it's almost impossible for the dealer to know this is happening.

[IMBLITZVT]

Not here in MD. My Wife can not by me a gun as a present! I think its that way everywhere! Which is an interesting question... how are youth guns sold? Youth is generally under 18 or 21... well no one under those ages can buy guns! So almost every one of these guns sold break the law...

[okie shooter]

This is current from this soruce, interesting stuff
http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-21/1179473181135750.xml&coll=1

Note this quote from below "ATF called Elliot's one of the top sources in the United States of firearms that were later recovered in crimes. Between March 1, 2002, and March 7, 2007, it traced to the store about 2,300 guns, including 127 linked to homicide investigations and 517 to drug-related crimes."

Thats a lot of guns to end up in criminal investigations from one store(thats more than one gun a day, traced back to the store in criminal investigations, they dont say though how the guns end up in the criminal investigations, by theft or by use), I would like to see how many they have sold in that time to see the ratio of sales to tracking to criminal activity.


Gun shop raid finds 1,165 weapons
'A bottomless pit,' federal agent says

Friday, May 18, 2007 By Michelle Hunter


Federal agents who raided Elliot's Gun Shop said Thursday they seized 1,165 firearms, 131,000 rounds of ammunition and 26 boxes of records from the Old Jefferson weapons dealer they accuse of shady business practices and fueling violent crime in the New Orleans region.
Investigators wrapped up their search of Elliot's, 3008 Jefferson Highway, about 4:30 p.m. after spending two days removing the business's inventory, said special agent Austin Banks, spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Elliot's owner Hermann Eicke III had called the store one of the largest gun dealers in south Louisiana. That proved true for ATF agents and the U.S. Secret Service, which assisted in the investigation, when they started cataloging everything in the building Wednesday morning, Banks said.
http://www.nola.com/images/spacer.gif
http://ads3.udc.advance.net/RealMedia/ads/adstream_lx.ads/www.nola.com/xml/story/N/NZNPMT/1944902450/StoryAd/NOLALIVE/NL_SPACER_03/spacer.html/63303838383231313436346465613330?_RM_EMPTY_&
http://ads.nola.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_nx.ads/www.nola.com/xml/story/N/NZNPMT/@StoryAd?x"It was a hole in the wall, but they had a bottomless pit when it came to firearms," he said.
The ATF booked Eicke, 65, and former Elliot's owner Timothy Harris Sr., 54, now an employee, with aggravated identity theft. Authorities said Eicke and Harris cooked up a scheme to boost the store's inventory by using forged police officer credentials to buy guns from manufacturers at a 20 percent law enforcement discount. The store then sold the guns to civilians at regular prices.
The bureau also arrested Elliot's employee Rebecca Zitzmann, 42, saying they caught her making a "straw sale" of a gun to a convicted felon. Zitzmann allegedly let an undercover ATF agent, who was posing as the felon's companion, complete the federal paperwork required to buy the gun. She was booked with falsifying federal firearms records.
http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-21/1179473181135750.xml&coll=1
Eicke was arrested at his Kenner home and released from custody on a $25,000 bond, Banks said. A woman who identified herself as Eicke's wife during a telephone call to his home said she did not want to comment.
Zitzmann and Harris were taken into custody in Woodville, Miss., and are still in custody. They are scheduled to go before a judge today, Banks said.
In addition to the inventory seized, Banks said agents took 166 guns they think belong to Elliot's customers. The guns were more than likely in the store for repair.
Michael Lemoine, 59, of Metairie said his .30-30 Winchester rifle is among them.
He said the gun was ruined when Hurricane Katrina flooded his house. He took the rifle to Elliot's about two months ago for repairs. He came back from vacation Thursday to hear that Elliot's had been shuttered.
"I guess I lost my rifle," Lemoine said.
Not so, Banks said. The ATF has every intention of trying to return those firearms to customers. Banks said anyone with a gun stored at Elliot's at the time of the raid should call the bureau at (504) 581- 4867.
. . . . . . .
Michelle Hunter can be reached at mhunter@timespicayune.com or (504) 883-7054.

[okie shooter]

how does one prove a "straw purchase"? does the undercover agent say "oh, by the way, I'm actually buying this for my brother who is a convicted child rapist" or what?

Actually hunter, I have watched the videos of them doing that, they say it constantaly to the clerk but the clerk says make sure you fill out the form right, or it will be a straw purchase. Its folks not wanting to lose sales, the agents are useally blantant about it being one.

[nevada]

A friend of mine visiting a small gun store in the south was told by the clerk he could have the pistol without paperwork for $100 more than the price tag. He didn't go for it.

[okie shooter]

A friend of mine visiting a small gun store in the south was told by the clerk he could have the pistol without paperwork for $100 more than the price tag. He didn't go for it.
I dont think I would have either, but I guess there are folks that do, either geting caught or getting away with it.

[IMBLITZVT]

The whole thing is a load of crap... So its ok if you buy the gun for you... then honestly change your mind as you walk out of the store and sell it to your friend on the spot? Maybe you saw a really nice looking hooker and needed the cash... Come on. Now if they are selling them to felons directly thats a different story. The person who does that should go to jail. If they lady is saying you need to fill the form out correctly... then it seems to me its on him as he is the one making a false statement.... not her. How does she "falsifying federal firearms" documents? It seems to me that the ATF guy is the one breaking the law.

Its all a bunch of crap... I know for a fact that in one hour time and $500 I can drive down the city and get a gun...off the black market. Most of these are stolen. How about they start going after these people and not for these more borderline law breakers. There are about 275 murders a year in Baltimore and they have cops giving out seat belt tickets!!! This is the same sort of crap...

I am not really defending these people as it is stupid to be doing what they are doing and I do not like it.... but the police should have better things to be doing. I also know that a lot of the time they are the ones setting this crap up to happen.

[okie shooter]

Regulateing gun sales, and dealers is the job of the atf, the folks that were investigateing this, thus its not like cops that are giving seatbelt tickets, its the job of the atf to look into gun related crimes and see if there are problems with the system or folks within the system selling firearms against the rules.


According to one of the criminal complaints, a confidential informant and an undercover ATF agent posing as a "straw buyer" were able to purchase a firearm from Elliot's with Zitzmann's assistance. Zitzmann illegally sold a handgun to the informant, but allowed the undercover ATF agent to complete the ATF paperwork to make it appear that the agent purchased the gun from this article http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20070516/pl_usnw/atf_secret_service_arrest3__seize_inventory_of_gun _dealer__fueling_violent_crime_in_new_orleans

Even if you are set up, you are guilty of commiting the crime, thus if you allow a sale that shouldnt happen, even if its the atf agent fakeing it, but you know you are in the wrong, you are just as guilty. Are folks that hire hitman that happen to be cops, not guilty of that crime too, since the cops portraying the hit man are cops and not going to commit a crime, are the folks selling drugs not guilty if they sell to a cop, since its just a setup too.

At mininum they are faceing federal identity theft, for forgary of police department members signitures, to obtain firearms at reduced priceing, thus why the Secret Service is involved with the investigation. They might get hit with mail fraud if they used the postal service in this action(one wholesaler involved was in newyork state), then the owner, and past holder of the ffl had his lic pulled a few years ago for reacord keeping problems, thus is why it was an employee with the lic.

This sounds like it might be more involved than just reacords problems, thus I want to hear what comes out. Its gun dealers that feel the rules dont apply to them that does give the rest of them black eyes. I am not going to say these guys are dirty, but straw purchaces is against the law, thus wrong, and if the mean time from guns purchaced from supposedly a legal dealer to criminal activity is short, there might be issues here to be looked at more closely.

[IMBLITZVT]

Typing to much...

[SteelCore]

"shady business practices"
-->I'd say.

I also am shocked that the ATF is at least trying to do this the right way...
""I guess I lost my rifle," Lemoine said.
Not so, Banks said. The ATF has every intention of trying to return those firearms to customers. Banks said anyone with a gun stored at Elliot's at the time of the raid should call the bureau at (504) 581- 4867."

Of course, how many were stored there that were illegal?

[okie shooter]

I dont make the laws, or regulations, congress does, and within the consitution of the United States, there are many reasons they are allowed to do so. I am sure if the atf didnt have the right to enforce gun laws and such the courts would be seeing contests or have seen contests to them.

Just because you dont like a law, agree or disagree with a law, as long as there isnt a moral underlieing issue there, you have redress with the courts, to contest the law, the examples of slavery and jewish folks in nazi germany aint quite the apples to apples comparison of buying a gun for a friend, because its against the law, the first two are moraly repugnant, the last one is just a idea that the folks that regulate firearms say you should obay, no where in the constitution or bill of rights does it say, "you can buy a fire arm for your friend, and this right will not be infringed".

Thus you always are guarenteed the right to bear arms, just if your friend wants to too, they need to go out and do it them selves.

[Lon Moer]

I don't really know any more about this situation than what is on the news and what I'm reading on the various gunboards, but I found this in a post in a similar thread on ARFcom;

Jstephens999 says...
YES, these guys are CROOKS. I bought a Kimber .45 there in April of 2005. My cousin had bought a similar Kimber .45 from them in 2003 and was completely happy with the shop's service and it's prices. They had the best selection of what I was looking for and a decent price compared to other places I had looked. Yes, the people seemed nice and everything seemed fine, I even recommended them to other people. BUT, at the end of October, 2005, I was pulled over for a traffic violation on my way out of New Orleans and when asked if I had any weapons, I said yes and told them where the pistol was in the car AND got out MY ORIGINAL sales receipt showing that I had bought it from Elliot's 6 months earlier. I had been doing animal rescue in and around New Orleans and the police and National Guard made it clear that we could carry our guns with us but we should always have some type of proof of ownership on us at all times because of people looting and stealing firearms from vacant homes. So that's exactly what I did, otherwise I never would have been carrying my receipt around with me in the first place. Nevertheless, the officer called the serial number in and it came back as being reported stolen from Elliot's DURING Hurricane Katrina, even though I had ACTUALLY bought it 5 months earlier and had proof with me. I spent all night and half of the next day in the St. Charles parish jail until a judge looked over the case and said I could be bailed out. They got in touch with the ATF to search for the matching record of me filling out the background check on the same date as was listed on my receipt. It still took me 6 more months to get the gun back. During this time, I called Elliot's and asked to speak with the manager two times but they said he wasn't there and he never called me back. Then, I went back down to Elliot's and told them what had happened so that maybe they would look into it and see if there was a mistake, but they told me to my face that they didn't know what I was talking about and that they had not been robbed during Katrina and they had not reported any guns stolen. When I was finally able to track the gun down and speak to the investigators, they said that Elliot's HAD reported numerous guns stolen and that they were saying that all of their records were ruined during Katrina and that my serial number must have accidentally ended up on the list because they didn't have a record of them selling it. The police said that they and the ATF were opening up an investigation on Elliot's and that this was not the first problem they've had with them. Supposedly, Elliot's had just found an easy way to get paid insurance money by reporting a bunch of guns stolen that were actually sold before the alleged "theft" took place. Oh, and when I told my cousin about it (who had bought a gun from them in 2003) he called a friend at the Police department and got him to run the numbers on his gun and it came back being reported stolen from Elliot's as well. And he bought this gun over two years BEFORE Elliot's reported it stolen. So you guys who said you bought firearms - especially high dollar firearms - from Elliot's Pre-Katrina, there may be a good chance that you unknowingly have a reportedly "stolen" firearm in your car or home right now like my cousin does, and like I did until I found out the hard way. I would hope that they have this matter sorted out by now, but I have heard nothing else about it since mid 2006. I'm just glad these guys are out of business now.


I also only know the validity of that piece from it being posted:icon_confused:

[bullseye]

As for buying guns for someone else, I bought my wife a 357 snub to carry at a gun show and had her on the phone describing it to her before I bought it. The seller asked me who I was talking to about the revolver and I told him it was my wife, 8 months pregnant and at home in bed. He also asked if she could buy it herself if she was there and I told him yes. He said since I was there and not her, I had to buy it in my name not hers and it would be OK. I was told the same thing by a few other dealers while shopping for her Valentine's day gift. :)
Was that a straw purchase?

[Cavalryman]

As for buying guns for someone else, I bought my wife a 357 snub to carry at a gun show and had her on the phone describing it to her before I bought it. The seller asked me who I was talking to about the revolver and I told him it was my wife, 8 months pregnant and at home in bed. He also asked if she could buy it herself if she was there and I told him yes. He said since I was there and not her, I had to buy it in my name not hers and it would be OK. I was told the same thing by a few other dealers while shopping for her Valentine's day gift. :)
Was that a straw purchase?

Okay guys, listen up because this is important:

A "straw purchase" is when you buy a firearm for someone who would not be legally allowed to purchase a firearm. That means that if your brother is squeaky-clean and you want to give him a firearm, you have essentially two choices: (1) You can purchase the firearm in your own name and then give it to him. (2) You can go with him to the store, have him fill out the form and obtain the authorization to purchase, then you give the money to the clerk. In neither case is this a "straw purchase" because the individual for whom the firearm was actually purchased is legally allowed to purchase and own a firearm. Of course, the onus will be upon you to show that you knew the recipient of the firearm to be allowed to purchase and own firearms. The only time that I bought a firearm as a gift for someone other than a member of my immediate family, I went to the store with him where he did the paperwork and I wrote the check.

On the other hand, if your friend says, "Gee, I really need a gun to protect myself when I travel...but there was that trouble with my ex-wife when I was going through my divorce, and now they won't sell me one. You know how those things happen; your divorce was pretty nasty too. How about if you just do the buying and then sell the gun to me? I'll give you enough to make it worth your while." If you do this, you have committed a felony and if you get boned in the butt, then you had it coming for being stupid.

In sting operations, the person completing the paperwork typically makes it clear that he/she is buying the gun for someone else who can't buy it for him/herself. I would jerk the papers back so fast it would create a gale-force wind. If the dealer completes the sale after having been told that the gun is actually for someone who can't buy one, then that dealer also deserves to get boned in the butt.

Don't buy a gun for someone who isn't allowed to own one. Don't sell a gun to someone who plans to give it to someone who isn't allowed to own one. That's it. I'll be 50 in August; I've never been some convict's bitch yet and I don't plan to start now.