Amnesty for millions

[Rampager]

This new bill will give amnesty to millions (12-20 million) of foreigners that ignored our countries laws and invaded us illegally. The real number will probably be more like 30+ million by time the extended families of these people that broke ours laws are counted.

Apparently, crime really does pay...
Wonder how many millions will be in the next wave 5 years from now?

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

If you go to the above link and scroll down the left side you can find tons of info, stats, free book downloads, etc.

[Longhorn789]

Sen. Ed Kennedy...

What a shock...:wallbash:

[kpd007]

Krikey! That site is really an eye opener.

Immigration up %250
Immigrant fertility up %30 (Shocker!)
Native fertility down %10

This may be the most peaceful invasion in the history of the world. In the late 80's during the Reagan years we had one heck of a recession and millions of illegals went back south of the border. It is sad to me that I have to think a recession is our best defense against illegal immigrants. If any of us committed a federal felony (there ain't no misdemeanors) we would be locked up and livin with bubba and his 15" of swinging death. I have no hope that our govt. will ever do anything worth a crap on this issue. Oh well, off to mow my lawn.

[bullseye]

Once again time to make your voices heard. Mail, e-mail, and call your reps and tell them you will not stand for this treasonous bill to pass. Amnesty is an insult to all the immigrants that came here legally in the past. This is total BS and very bad for this country. Also they will be told who to vote for in the next elections as a thank you for getting them visas, guess who they will vote for?

[pigpen]

That is the last thing we need, more "imagrants" sucking on the government teet!

[Rampager]

Also they will be told who to vote for in the next elections as a thank you for getting them visas, guess who they will vote for?

This is a very good point. When these folks go to vote they will vote for the party that will give them the most hand-outs....guess who that will be?

Eventually this will change the political balance favoring the Dems, most probably forever. The US will be transformed into a Western Europe style socalist country at that point IMHO.:ranting:

[okie shooter]

Ironically everyone seems to think that the immigrants that get here, illegaly or legally, just are lazy and want to suck on the goverment tit. I think if you look though those who want to make the sacrifice here do it for a better life not to join up and get on welfare. Did everyone that comments here on this subject decend from legal or illegal immigrants?

Most folks do come here to work and find a better life just as my ancestors did a hundred and ten years ago too.

[Cecil6304]

Once the amnesty is granted, the cheap labor will go the way of the buffalo.

[pigpen]

Ironically everyone seems to think that the immigrants that get here, illegaly or legally, just are lazy and want to suck on the goverment tit. I think if you look though those who want to make the sacrifice here do it for a better life not to join up and get on welfare. Did everyone that comments here on this subject decend from legal or illegal immigrants?

Most folks do come here to work and find a better life just as my ancestors did a hundred and ten years ago too.

I'm sure some illegals come here in search of the American Dream and want to contribute & pull thier own weight. But, considering where they come from, any place is better. So after they get here & get public assistance then they say hey, I don't have to work too hard & I still have it much better than I did in mexico, honduras or where ever they came from so then they start sucking & voting for whom ever will give them the most tit. Plain & simple. That is the downside to socialism, it creates a reason for the people not to work cuz they get too much from the gov & that breeds apathy & laziness. My family legally imigrated to the U.S. from Czech & Germany. They worked hard on the homestead & had a productive farm. Yes I know the Gov. ain't giving away dirt in the heartland anymore but times change. My folks got lucky. Thats not fair but that IS life. Who was that guy that said all democracies end when the people realize the can vote themselves more benefits from the gov. & then eventuallly the democracy ends in dictatorship. He said it much better than I but I hope you get my drift.:rantmeter:

[okie shooter]

I think if you look at the general upward mobility of the hispanic community, that idea that they are sucking off the tit is a little out of wack, the asians too, heck in most situations asian immigrants score higher and have incomes in excess of the rest of the country. There maybe groups that do not acheive as well as others but I think if you look at the figgures, the largest ethnic group on forms of public assistance in the nation might suprise you .

P.S. I looked up the stats for citizenship in one of the larger goverment programs TANF,Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, and 99 precent of the kids in the program are us citizens, for the last couple of years that were in the data I read.

I might have to look up some what more on this item but to get into most of the direct assistance programs, you have to have documentation. Maybe some other ways everyone feels they are getting assistance(like use of hospitals and such) but useally to get a check or a card with atm privlages and stamps you need to prove something.

Source, http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/ofa/annualreport7/chapter10/chap10.DOC, Table B,"Trend in AFDC/TANF Recipient Characteristics, FY 1992 – FY 2003"

[pigpen]

Oh, I'm not say'n hispanics are lazy or just here for a free ride. I work for a goverment agency & see a lot of people from a whole spectrum of ethnic backgrounds who are lazy leeches. Please don't think I was insinuating that hispanics are the main culprits of "gitt'n wat the guvment owes em". I hear that too often and if I wanted to get fired I'd tell them how I really feel & to get off thier ass & stop waiting for a hand out.

[iocane]

The problem isn't those who come here wanting to be Americans and wanting to be part of everything that makes America great. The problem is those who come to America and want to make it Mexico. Complete with the corruption. Someone here quoted Theodore Roosevelt words once on this subject, I thought those words sum it up well.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

[pigpen]

The problem isn't those who come here wanting to be Americans and wanting to be part of everything that makes America great. The problem is those who come to America and want to make it Mexico. Complete with the corruption. Someone here quoted Theodore Roosevelt words once on this subject, I thought those words sum it up well.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."


What ^^^he said.^^^^

[okie shooter]

Statics of the food stamp program, from this source
http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/menu/Published/FSP/FILES/Participation/2005Characteristics.pdf


93.8% us born citizen
4.8% naturalized citizen
0.8% refugees

[okie shooter]

:rantmeter:Guys I take this a little personally, due to the fact of my race, My ethnic group may be the highest earning ethinc group in this nation, achieve highest scores in standard edcuation testing and not even considered a minorty when it comes to any placement anywhere, but heck when I was a kid and my father, a US born citizen of europian decent, fought for his country with twenty years of service and a year in both korea and vietnam had to explain to his son, why he was being harrased and even spit upon by "good americans to even include many races" it leaves a huge bone in my craw when folks say its immigrants get this "free ride".

This country was founded by immigrants, expanded by them and even spit on them if they were not of the right race or considered proper(look at the chinese exclusion act, the immigration quotas between the second world war and the first). Heck states have taken property rights away from immigrants before(california did it to japanese makeing it illegal for ailens to own property) and now what does everyone think aobut that and the place.

I have just posted two sets of statics, that everyone seems to think that illegals get the bennifits of this society. They do get the general bennifits of the society but arn't on the goverment tit at this time. Heck more whites in numbers than most other minorty groups are in these assistance programs(for food stamps go look at my link, they are the largest group of folks collecting them and second largest in TANF) The two largest groups are american born, and for the most part many generations removed as immigrants.

Its interesting that a hispanic from cuba if he gets here dry foot gets to stay(look up dry foot, it's where if they land here without assistance from the goverment here no matter where in the us they get to become us residants) I hate to say it, it economics that drive folks from cuba as much as anywhere else in the world, just that politics also play a roll and since there is a huge cuban lobby that keeps that open. I wonder what will happen when the cubans have to cue up in immigration lines rather than just get here "dry foot".

Ok off the soap for the time being. :1106:

[Rampager]

I have no problem with people that come here legally, work hard and want a better life. It's those that abuse ours laws by sneaking in I do have a problem with. They are starting off as criminals right off the bat which shows a total disrespect of our nation's laws. They burden our health care system, schools, police, you name it.

It's not fair to those immigrants who go and apply and wait their turn legally.
These folks that are getting amnesty are being rewarded for breaking the law IMHO.

Any attempt by our politicians to Band-Aid this problem without taking real control of our borders is just pandering to us as voters. Without real border control there is no doubt in my mind that will be right back in this predicament within 5 years. Just like the last amnesty give away in the 1980's was going to fix everything...hell it's made it worse cause word is out that the US will eventually give amnesty to all illegals. I have no faith that our government will enforce these new laws anymore than the have the existing ones.

[pigpen]

I feel ya okie. I just wonder what adding 12-20 million people to the system will do.

[Rampager]

I just wonder what adding 12-20 million people to the system will do.

Eventually if this illegal uncontroled population shift continues, I'd say it'll be the same thing as a life boat that seats 20 taking on 100.

But again...I think that controled legal immigration is a good thing. I welcome them. It's the American dream, there is a big differance.

[MID]

So okie in short what you are saying, is that its ok to break the law as long as you dont get caught for long enough.
Theres a problem with your stats. They dont list illegal immigrants.

A refugee is not an illegal immigrant. Refugees are people form a country or areas that has some major conflict. Cambodia, Armenia etc And our government recognizes their hardship and invites them to live in America.


Even if illegals never received any of the handouts that are given to them, health care, education etc. They are still leaches. They are not paying into the system. Every one of us has to pay into the system whether or not we take from the system. Theres no middle ground. If not leaching the benefits, they're leaching the money owed to the system that could pay for benefits for somebody that needs them.

[okie shooter]

I feel ya okie. I just wonder what adding 12-20 million people to the system will do.

What are these people doing now to survive, and live here, they are working now, do you think they will stop working tommrow? I think the folks here for the most part want to be here to work. It leaves many in a kinda quantry, build a busness, become successful and make something but if you are caught, deportation. I imagine most illegals are not working in front of Home Depot or Lowes as day labors(damm that would be a large group of day laborers infront of every lowes and home depot in the nation if twenty million of them are there), they are holding jobs here now, working in the factories, salughter houses and other places, paying taxes and social security(abet with out the proper paperwork, but even folks that hire illegals with fake papers do withhold the taxes and pay the social security both matching and withholding). I understand that everyone thinks the average illegal is here working as day labors, just for cash but I imagine thats not the case.

Remember for all of us, we pay far more taxes that illegals have to pay too, no matter what, the ones you dont see, than the taxes you think about, income and social security.

[Rampager]

See that's just it...the illegals make it more difficult for the legals (immigrants) to get a decent wage. The legals are being hurt far more than us by the law breaking illegals.

[okie shooter]

So okie in short what you are saying, is that its ok to break the law as long as you dont get caught for long enough.
Theres a problem with your stats. They dont list illegal immigrants.



Mid, they list citizens, legal ailens, and others(the very small precentage of the data), thus the numbers add up to 100% or close due to rounding, where are the illegals in the programs?

What part of 100 precent do you not understand there, the programs require some form of varificatioin thus the stats come darn close to 100% either citizens or residant ailens elligable for the program.

[pigpen]

I think amnesty for breaking the law is bad news, sends a mixed signal. Weather they use a real SS# or make one up or use another persons that is still wrong & should not be rewarded.

[Rampager]

okie...
But if we have no idea how many illegals there are here (12-20 mil, some say 30+million) with thousands entering everyday and night, how can any real data be collected on this group?

On a side note...how would you feel if an illegal alien unlawfully used your SS# and when you went to draw benfits they said someone's already using it? This is going on. Why? cause they are illegally here and that's how they get jobs. Legal immigrants would be issued a SS# of their own. Goes with the whole lawbreaking mentality from the beginning.

[pigpen]

Mid, they list citizens, legal ailens, and others(the very small precentage of the data), thus the numbers add up to 100% or close due to rounding, where are the illegals in the programs?

What part of 100 precent do you not understand there, the programs require some form of varificatioin thus the stats come darn close to 100% either citizens or residant ailens elligable for the program.

I understand, illegals can't get most gov't benefits. How many will if they become citizens?

[okie shooter]

I understand, illegals can't get most gov't benefits. How many will if they become citizens?
Again, what are they doing without the bennifits to survive now, they are working, thus I imagine unless there is some genetic thing that when you are given status, and a path to citizenship, that your willingness to chase the american dream dies, I imagine they will continue to work, just like other folks in this country. Note the two largest groups on assistance in this nation, are not from new waves of immigration but from some of the largest ethnic groups in this country, with many generations of folks in the nation.

Notice in my posts I never said there needs to be a blanket program either, just I am saying these folks work, do pay taxes and such.

Ironically one of the largest groups on the public dole, are recieveing social security, thus many folks collect far more from it than they every paid into(most of the past and many of the folks currently in the system), I think the trend will reverse soon though, and those collecting in the future will receive far less than was set aside for them to include income limitations for collection of it, Thus try to tell me its not a redistribution of wealth, when they have been telling me all my life its for my retirement. No one and I mean no one screws with that program do they, no matter what? Thus those collecting more than they ever put in are a drain on the system too right?

[rustypirate]

Illegals do work, but they do NOT pay income taxes. They have no valid social Security number, therefore cannot file a valid federal income tax return.

these people are able to take home the same salary as a tax payer, but the employer gets a 20-30% discount.

This takes jobs away from people who DO pay taxes by undercutting the going salary. It also puts strain on existing social programs like schools, medical facilities, etc, whil failing to contribute to those same programs.

Illegal immigrants should not be tollerated.

[okie shooter]

Rusty, they cannot file, but do you think they get a walk on the fact that Social security has to be collected and matched, and I imagine not too many employeers are going to not withhold any taxes, if they dont file reurns due to false ssn, the goverment just keeps it all, they don't give it back. I think no matter what if you are an employeer, and send in with holding, you would be in deep kimchee, if you didnt send in the withholding on your illegals that did give you the paper work(abet phoney)to get hired in the first place, thus unless they are paid under the table(yes this happens) they are giving the money to someone. If they get a "pay check"(I mean written pay check) no matter what they are getting taxed for social security at mininum. Some one show me an employeer that is writing pay checks, and not collecting social security, and paying it, and I will show you a man who will go to jail.

In most places how are schools funded, property tax, thus any one living here in this country pays towards schools, for higways, how are they funded, federal and state fuel taxes, mostly earmarked for highways only(except here where a little more than half goes to fund state highways). Most local goverments earn the bulk of their money from sales taxes, thus folks buying things all contribute to that pool too. Do you all think that only folks filing income taxes pay taxes? I think if you look at what you pay without thinking of it in taxes, the ones you forget when you buy gas or milk, or pay the morgage on your house, you will realize unless you live in a tent, grow your food, and ride a bicycle everywhere, you pay taxes.

[DAA1]

Break the law and get amnesty???? MMMMM does that work for all laws or just the ones that get attention? The law is the law. As a nation we must all do our best to follow the laws. I failed to see any mention in any law about picking and choosing which laws you are going to follow. Those who do not follow the laws are CRIMINALS, it is really easy if you look at it in black and white.

This is a really sore subject with a lot of folks. I imagine it is pretty hard to legally immigrate to the US, but that's the law. From what I am seeing folks think that illegal immigration is ok? So if I rationalize this in my non typical sense, that means I too can comite a crime and it's ok????? I am really confused, imagine how confusing it is to the rest of the "law-abiding" folks.

Amensty for all crimes... do away with any law that folks do not like and let's just make it a free for all. Just think of the money we will save in law enforcement costs alone.

Of course that would mean we have to find job programs for all the unemployed law enforcement folks, judges, lawyers, folks in jail that we would have to release.

I some how don't think doing away with some laws is a good thing.... Enforce the laws we have, hold folks accountable, and live happily ever after.... Yeah uh huh..
arghhhhhhh.

[okie shooter]

See that's just it...the illegals make it more difficult for the legals (immigrants) to get a decent wage. The legals are being hurt far more than us by the law breaking illegals.
Rampager, where you live there is very little meat packing, but do you want your kids to get a job there, even if they pay fifteen to twenty dollars a hour? Most folks dont want their kids to do manual labor no matter what it pays. Heck our mickey dees cannot get kids from highschool to work they think its beneath them but many jobs that historically have been mininum wage are now paying more just to attract folks to work them.

How many folks here have filled out(as an employeer) and verified a I-9 form, proveing ablity to work here, it is a neat form, look it up some time.

[okie shooter]

I am not saying they are not criminals, and haven't broken laws, I am just saying they pay taxes no matter what everyone wants to think, when they gas up the car, buy the groceries, go out to eat, pay the utilty bills, pay the satalight so they can watch television from home too, (if they hold a legit job with illegal paper, they pay payroll taxes too). We all pay those taxes. Everyone thinks they are getting a free ride, and please tell me how this free ride is funded, by taxes, most of the local goverments that everyone complains are getting ripped off get funding not from income taxes but other sources(unless you live in one of the cities that has a income tax) heck there are states without income taxes too. From property and sales taxes are what run most places and even states(unless you live in a speed trap then fines and court costs can run and ruin a town).

[pigpen]

Okie, they way you put it, it is OK for anyone from anywhere to come here as long as they work & pay taxes. What about when castro released all the prisoners from the jails in cuba? I'm sure a lot of people sneaking in to the US are sneaking for a reason. The first thing they do when they come in to our country is break our laws, falsify documents with the IRS. It just seems wrong to give them a pass. If you give anyone an inch they will try to take a mile.

[Norton]

Eventually this will change the political balance favoring the Dems, most probably forever. The US will be transformed into a Western Europe style socalist country at that point IMHO.:ranting:

Thats the idea!

[pigpen]

Are you a commie Norton?

[okie shooter]

Okie, they way you put it, it is OK for anyone from anywhere to come here as long as they work & pay taxes. What about when castro released all the prisoners from the jails in cuba? I'm sure a lot of people sneaking in to the US are sneaking for a reason. The first thing they do when they come in to our country is break our laws, falsify documents with the IRS. It just seems wrong to give them a pass. If you give anyone an inch they will try to take a mile.

No I am not saying that its ok, nor legal, my arguement is to counter the idea that they don't pay taxes, thus suck off the goverment tit. I think you even stated that they arn't in entitlement programs. The fact we rag that they don't pay taxes is a lie, they do pay some and many pay the same as you do, if they get a legit job, even illeglitamally. Thats my point, everyone says they are freeloading and not paying taxes, but if you tried not to pay all of yours by not paying gas tax, sales tax and such, you would be jailed. I am just saying they do pay taxes into the system.

Please anwser my question though about mutateing into non workers when given a path to citizenship, you seem to think they all will become liberial zombies and quit working, I just think they wont. They come here to work, why would they quit? Do we, now that all of us can live confortably without working on the dole if we wanted to work the system?(there are folks though that think ssi is a noble profession, I went in the hospital for a heart problem years back, and was constantly asked when I got out when was I going to go out on a medical retirement, I was under 40 then)

I still imagine the largest group living off the goverment tit are the folks on the social security system and SSI anyway. Scocial security, and income security are between them the largest parts of the federal budget. Toss in medicare and you are over half the budget.

[pigpen]

"Please anwser my question though about mutateing into non workers when given a path to citizenship, you seem to think they all will become liberial zombies and quit working, I just think they wont. They come here to work, why would they quit?"

I think I was just pointing out that while I am sure most illegals, if given amnasty, will continue working there are however, those coming from a 3rd world country where they lived in a mud hut & ate rats & grubs & spiders. They would have no motivation to work once granted amnasty & therefore be eligible for gov't benefits. I mean running water, electricity, in a 400sqft trailer or apartment is a hell of a lot better than piss'n in a bush outside you mud hut hoping a spider doen't bite your ding-ding. Does that make any sence to anyone else?

[okie shooter]

"They would have no motivation to work once granted amnasty & therefore be eligible for gov't benefits. I mean running water, electricity, in a 400sqft trailer or apartment is a hell of a lot better than piss'n in a bush outside you mud hut hoping a spider doen't bite your ding-ding. Does that make any sence to anyone else?
Hell Pigpen, thats better than some folks here in this country live, even here in oklahoma and parts of back east. Maybe some of these okies should immigrate to better parts. Acutally there have been cases where families have done that to get better assistance, now most states cap you aid, to the state you leave for a while. (on dirt poor, I watched a case of that with a guy in the army getting kicked out, because his entire family moved in from the dirt floor shacks of KY, to live on post with him and his wife, they trashed the place but were able to keep the inspectors from housing out for a year, until they had to install smoke alarms in his quarters, and found out that they had lived so poorly in the hills they didn't really know how to live in the world, he was discharged from the army as he let it go for so long, they gutted the quarters, you should have seen the walls move due to roaches)

On the immigration, anything has to be two parts, dealing with the folks here already and dealing with the folks that want to come here. Getting here from mud huts in some places aren't the folks we need to worry about crossing the border, its the semi skilled and edcuated and skilled folks in places that are going to have the most to gain by getting here thus able to pay to get here and want to risk it.(or come here on some sort of visa and stay) It's not the mud hutter or subsistance farmer as much as the factory worker or semi skilled laborer in countries within easy reach that are going to swell the ranks, remember the last program and the rush to get in. You did have to prove you had been here a while, some way. I am sure it will be the same, with folks selling the documents if it happens again.

Hell the slums of europe a hundred or more years ago wernt much worse than the slums here, just you could work your way out of the slums here.

P.S. I read some where that hispanic americans, in this country feel we need to deal with the immigration problem here too.

[okie shooter]

okie...
On a side note...how would you feel if an illegal alien unlawfully used your SS# and when you went to draw benfits they said someone's already using it? This is going on. Why? cause they are illegally here and that's how they get jobs. Legal immigrants would be issued a SS# of their own. Goes with the whole lawbreaking mentality from the beginning.

Someone can try that one without being illegal, its called identy theft, illegals using made up ssn, or fake ones are I imagine trying to get a legit jobs, not apply for medicare, welfare or ssi. If they try to collect bennies like that they have big balls, but heck there are plenty of americans that will step in and do that too. Yes I think that folks that do identity theft are the scum of the earth too.

This could change in the future as illegals no longer go home after earning a stake here, they used to years back but crossing the border is tougher so they just move their families here and start an entire new life.

Ironically I knew a guy who faked a identity, got a ssn and lived for two years as some one, he wasnt illegal or anything just went awol from the army and thought he needed a fresh start, so he got a identity set up complete with legit d/l ssn and all sorts of stuff, he was smart though, and a hard worker for sure.

[AK AJ]

No I am not saying that its ok, nor legal, my arguement is to counter the idea that they don't pay taxes, thus suck off the goverment tit. I think you even stated that they arn't in entitlement programs. The fact we rag that they don't pay taxes is a lie, they do pay some and many pay the same as you do, if they get a legit job, even illeglitamally. Thats my point, everyone says they are freeloading and not paying taxes, but if you tried not to pay all of yours by not paying gas tax, sales tax and such, you would be jailed. I am just saying they do pay taxes into the system.

Please anwser my question though about mutateing into non workers when given a path to citizenship, you seem to think they all will become liberial zombies and quit working, I just think they wont. They come here to work, why would they quit? Do we, now that all of us can live confortably without working on the dole if we wanted to work the system?(there are folks though that think ssi is a noble profession, I went in the hospital for a heart problem years back, and was constantly asked when I got out when was I going to go out on a medical retirement, I was under 40 then)

I still imagine the largest group living off the goverment tit are the folks on the social security system and SSI anyway. Scocial security, and income security are between them the largest parts of the federal budget. Toss in medicare and you are over half the budget.

My problem with that is the fact is a third of my paycheck goes to Federal and State taxes (that they don't pay,"but benefit from,with that whole national-state parks,police,and that defense thing we need),ETC.On top of that I Also have to pay those OTHER taxes you mentioned they pay,Which they do. My whole thing is "If you wanna be part of the crew,JUMP IN THE BOAT WITH US" I've had to work my ass off for everything I have and had to pay every tax there was to pay along the way, I have no sympathy for anyone who illegally sneaks into our country and doesn't wanna pay the dues, but all the respect for those that wanna go about it the right way and accually BE apart of this country.

AJ

And them a$$holes burning OUR flag isn't gaining my sympathy

[MID]

okie
Why do you feel the need to defend them like there being wrongly accused.
Its not exactly like you say. They might pay some taxes, but not all of them.


Then you forget that once they become citizens, minimum wages now apply to them, so any benefit there was to hire one ( cheap work) is now null. Also since they are citizens they can go out and get any job. Thus taking better jobs and leaving the crappy jobs. So now new illegals will come and fill the crappy jobs, that previous illegals left. All until this 3rd group is granted amnesty. And then it will start all over again.

Dont forget that there will be more labor competition in other jobs. Undercutting the american worker.


And this second amnesty will just re-enforce what they already knew. Sneak in, dodge the law, wait it out, and then be granted amnesty. It will only encourage more illegals.

[RandyCOG3]

I'm just going to ramble on for a little bit, aimlessly, not directed at any one particular person, or post.

How about this: We spend a few bucks on a stand-alone computer system for the IRS/Social Security folks, and, when taxes are paid in with an apparently bogus SS#, somebody (law-enforcement-officer of some flavor) is sent out to investigate; if it's an illegal, he or she is busted on the spot, sent to a purpose-built prison/processing facility where they are fingerprinted and/or iris-scanned, and given a multi-lingual explanation that 5 years in a tent-city prison like they have in AZ awaits them if they EVER come back. FREE southbound bus tickets for anybody they want to take along, so that families aren't broken up. As for the employer, if he/she/they are knowingly hiring multiple persons with bogus SS#'s, they just go to prison and stay there, possibly the same imaginary tent-city like they have in AZ right now.

And, YES, in the news recently, a major bank IS offering accounts, CREDIT CARDS (nevermind debit) to "undocumented" folks. I don't recall the bank, but it was a biggie. I'll google it if anybody wants me to. Paul Harvey reported on it, amongst others, if that helps. It's possible the idea may have flamed out by now, but it WAS in the works.

Illegals are certainly screwing the pooch for lower-class citizens who can't afford health insurance: they DO go to the emergency room for routine problems, since they cannot be turned down treatment, by law. So, when Joe American goes to the ER, rest assured the hospital IS going to be interested in going after his assets if they can, which is only reasonable. And, also, all hospital costs are higher to offset the loss of non-paying customers, so all insurance prices are higher, and every buck your employer spends on insurance is a buck the employee will never get in his pocket.
If it wasn't so late, and me so tired, I'd try to find a link, but it's been said that for every dollar that somebody below the $X-income level pays in taxes, on average they get back several times that in government benefits.
It seems to me that every time a strong, able-bodied illegal shows up here for gainful employment, that makes things much tougher on legal residents, and those at the income level in question are often already in dire straits, i.e. NOT in physically prime shape, or only able to work certain hours due to children in school, etc. I'm not AT ALL ok with the concept that an American should wind up unemployed because a criminal jumped the border.

Just like the Mariel Boatlift from Cuba, with NO system in place to filter the prospective immigrant through appropriate bureaucratic circles, there's no way to keep out the criminals, addicts, criminally insane, terrorists, etc.

As for the crop-picking argument, Britain commissioned a study that figured out (I tend to believe it) that, overall, it's cheaper to import crops than to pay out the benefits it takes to have illegals pick domestic crops. Kinda screws the farmer, though.

I was never in the military, but many of you here were. So, in the event that a draft again is deemed necessary, how do you handle that? They don't have to go? You tell them, nicely, that they really do have to come down to the Post Office and sign up?

I am thouroughly unimpressed by their "May Day" protests!! The idea is to show that, by not going to work, school, etc., we'll see how very necessary it is to have them here. Sorry, other than pissing me off, it had no effect on me, personally. And, as another poster noted, burning OUR FLAG is NOT going to score any points with ME, either.

I was born in Houston, TX, in 1960, and it was DRILLED into us, in school, to appreciate the common history TX (in particular, there) had with Mexico, and proudly so....and, I suspect, to quell any ill-will between "Texans" and "Mexicans" (meaning anybody who had any Mexican bloodlines). My point is that, from an early age, I was indoctrinated with the idea that "Mexicans" were pretty much on level ground with everybody else, so I'm not predisposed to freaking out the first time I see a brown face or a tortilla.... but the things that are currently going on are RIDICULOUS.

I gotta go, but I'll summarize my thoughts:
1)Big long fence.
2)Tent-city desert prison to carry out sentencing prior to permanant deportation, for usage of bogus SS#'s by illegals, and for illegals re-entering.
3)NO kid (legal or not) gets into any grade in school for which he or she can't speak English. I don't care if "we" pay for the English lessons, or "they" do it on a grass-roots level, but it's pointless to waste the kids' time listening to gibberish, and it's pointlessr to ask a teacher to teach something to someone who can't understand what the teacher is saying. I do presume that a person that speaks English will ultimately prosper well enough to pay taxes enough to pay for whatever facilities and personnell it takes to teach them English, and I tend to presume that a person that is forced to learn marginal English skills on the street during K-12 will suffer in the ability to learn skills needed to prosper, and is therefore more likely to be a net "tax burden", permanantly, or at least to pay fewer taxes than would otherwise be the case.
Sure, they DO work hard, but, the American Dream doesn't include hordes of immigrants digging ditches in the 21st Century. Well, it might, if they can't freeking SPEAK ENGLISH. Let's put them on equal ground for learning, even if we have to force them to learn the lingo so they can learn math, science, etc.
4)Some sort of individual testing... at least a piss test for drug abuse (yeah, I know some ppl here might flunk), and at least a rudimentary check of past criminal activity... shit, if we only catch 1% of the convicted felons and throw them out, that's still a HUGE impact on the families of legal citizens, and illegals more particularly, who won't be victimized by them.

I "could" go on and on... but, I've said plenty, and it's bed time.

RandyCOG3

[iocane]

These debates always go the same way. There is illegal aliens just trying to feed there families. Theres also is drug running illegal aliens who steal, kill, and are very good at looting goverment programs
.
There is also hard working American who would work for low pay. I don´t mean low pay is in 20 dollars a hour, I mean minimun wage.Just because its been okay to insult the poor doesn´t mean all the terrible things said about them are true. Sure theres a few that are bad.
Its the same with illegals.
What we need is return of law and order. Having a seperate illegal economy causes all sorts of trouble.
Those that want to be Americans should renounce their former citizenship.
Learn English, follow the laws, (uninsured motorist) etc. That should get rid of two thirds of the illegals.
The other third would make good citizens. No use giving them all citizenship anyway.
As soon as the economy has the next big crash they will be heading for greener pastures anyway.
We need those that want to be American citizens through the thick and thin. Also all those who are trying to make America Mexico, need to go to jail. Plus the border need to be fortified and defended by the army.
Well thats all wishful thinking. Probably will have a race war instead. Race wars are such a mess.
Protecting minorities run into the problem of who really is the minority and what if you are the one that needs protecting from them. Maybe your not white enough, or black enough, or bronze enough. Even if you are, some little error in the family tree and it turns out maybe your actually Jewish.

[Planning]

this is just the first step in annexing mexico.:America:
then south america...........:thumbup:

get ready.......the "Democratic Republic of America (DRA):salute:

[SteelCore]

That's what I was thinking planning...it'll be a race to see if we get Cuba before S. America tho. ;)

"most peaceful invasion in the history of the world"
-->Yep. Now if ehy assimilate into the poulation, then all's well.


Now this is a hot issue, and I was hot until I read 5 pages of it, and you guys already did all the debating there is to do.

so I'll post a short one fer a change.

Rusty and Okie are on it...it is all about Economics....money, income for the fed, etc. If they're legal, and half of 12-20 mil now pay taxes, the revenue stream is up. Less $$ leaving the US, more stays here.

When in doubt abotut a govt's motivation, the answer is MONEY.

[bullseye]

Here is the problem as I see it. Some illegals come here just to better their life, a few come here for bad things. First off, what part of illegal do you not understand??? No matter their intentions, they broke a law getting here and have not been punished. That emboldens them to break more as they see no repercussions for their actions. We tell them it is OK to come here illegally and break our laws and they won’t have to pay for it. We allow them to do it all the time, we even give them “sanctuary” cities where they are safe. We have shot ourselves on the foot, then the calf, and the thigh. The next shot will be in the nuts and we deserve it. Look folks, we hear every day the current death totals of the war, but we loose more civilians every year to illegals than we have lost military personnel in 5 years of war. We loose around 3500 civilians a year to illegals drinking & driving, gang related shootings/murder/reprisals, illegal gun running, etc. Could someone explain to me why locally we had an illegal kill a couple after being arrested 14 times?
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section_id=9&screen=news&news_id=50611
Our justice system apparently wants them here or is afraid of offending them is all I can figure. What happens when I get offended? Why can a group of illegal protesters take over a Post Office and rip down the US flag then stomp on it and run up a Mexican flag. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51746 Isn’t that an act of war? Yet nothing was done to them for doing that.
Why can’t we just give 30 days to leave the country, any illegal found will be shot. Make them all go back to Mexico City and put all the politicians in the square and kill them. Start over with the folks that just want a better life and make one in Mexico. Get about 5 million to go rid themselves of the drug problem then start building the country up like it should be. We need to adopt their immigration policy and enforce it like they do afterwards. Use prisoners to build a massive wall and wall off the entire southern border, make it understood that anyone attempting to cross the wall would be shot. We need to remove from federal jurisdiction most of the immigration power and put it where it can do some good: at the local level. The feds aren’t doing anything to help, so take them out of the loop for the most part. What do we do about Mexican prisons letting felons out to save space and directing them north? Something needs to be done about this, as it has to be a problem, right? Maybe we could move all the illegals to the west coast, give them California and re-name it illegalfornia. It’s already almost a sanctuary state and they seem to like the water, the sun, and the crops there. Let them have it and fence it off with mexico.
Okie, sure a lot of them pay taxes, but look into how many hospitals have closed in the last 5 years due to too many illegals getting service and not paying for it. Look at what they have done to car insurance rates in most states, look at the percentage of illegals in jails taking space that we could use for citizens instead of putting them back on the streets. In this type of situation, I am reminded of something I was told years ago. Go into any ghetto and remove the bad guys, leaving only the good guys. It can't be done. They all look the same, but the bad is in their hearts. Same problem we have in Iraq, same problem we have with illegals. It is all or nothing, the only way to be sure is to remove them all and go one by one in a controlled environment.

[Woodman in MO]

Good thread, although I don't see a lot of writing about the employeers who are giving illegals jobs off the books and paying them cash. I think it is very similiar to the drug war. You don't go out and bust the drug users (illegals) you go after the sellers (employers). The problem is, like the drug sellers, employers have the government in their back pocket so they get a pass. In that raid in I think it was MA where they rounded up hundreds of illegals and were holding them and shipping them back to their own country, the owners of the business were back at the office the next day...hiring more illegals to replace the ones they lost.

[Grasshopper]

OK, Here I go, please do not fire a missle at me for this.
1. These people are NOT illegal. They are NOT under the jurisdiction of the United States of America unless they say they are.
2. These people do have to pay taxes, they are the only other people that have to pay taxes other than federal workers and people that ship outside of the USA and receive forign commerce.
3. The IRS has nothing to do with the federal government. They are a private banking cartell, "period" if they want to give these people "federal" assistance that is their business. We are paying into this system, we are doing this by our own free will (ya rite) and we should understand that we do not make the rules. Congress can regulate this system but they are in need of "education" from "We the People".
4. I see these people as an oppertunity. Why? Most of them are Catholic, love their family and are just waiting for somebody to tell them what our Bill of Rites means :icon_biggrin:
5. The ruling class in this country are so raceist that they are trying to push this crap down our throats hoping for a civil war, race war. I say that they are underestimating the Good people of all races in this country. We are all Human, cousines, we should act like it. (I need help myself in this matter but I try). We have to try to get the race baiting ass***les arrested for Instigating violence. Let me be clear about this, there are forces in this country that want to seperate us and devide us to concour us. We can not let these people succead. These "illegal aliens" do use up a lot of resources. They are told to come here just to kill us by a thousand cuts. Most of these people do not know that they are being used in this raceist instigation of communism.:nonono:
I've got to stop now. Got to go back to work.:sleepy:

[okie shooter]

Well Carlos Mencia had a thought on this, let the illegals build the fence as part of their deal to stay, then they get to guard the fence. If any one gets thru their section they built and guard, guess who gets to go back. Just a thought.

[Rampager]

Remember this thread was about illegal immigration, not legal immigration.

I don't understand why anyone thinks we as Americans have no right to control our borders and have a controlled immigration policy. This is the only sane thing to do IMHO. A nation without borders is not a nation.

Mexico is allowed to strictly control it's Southern border...but we are bad for wanting to the same....hmmm.

So if I'm understanding some of the thinking here....anyone from any country should be allowed to come here illegally and we have no right to question them as to who they are or what their intentions are or do any sort of background check on them (hence illegal alien)?

Also if I'm understanding this, as long as these people that come here (in unlimited numbers illegally) are paying taxes then we all should be cool with that?

So if this is the line of thought, is it limited to only Hispanics?

Should we allow illegal unlimited numbers of people too from other countries like China, the Middle East, Africa, Europe, etc? How many is enough? If 20 million illegals is cool, then how about abother 100 million from the 3rd world? Or how bout 500 million? Would that make things better here for your children's children with all new those hard working tax payers paying into the system?

I don't buy the whole idea I'm hearing too that these folks (again talking illegals) all mostly have good intentions and the vast majority are upright hard working people....this hasn't been the experience in my realm. Don't know what it's like everywhere though. I'd need to talk to someone in law enforcement in a city with a large number of illegals before I can buy into that.

It's not they are doing jobs Americans won't do...it's that they are doing jobs greedy employers don't want to pay a decent wage for....that's what I've seen in my life's experiences.

Also, I'm not seeing most illegals trying to assimilate into our society either, unlike those who came here legally. I see no attempt by many to even learn English. Should the US be bilingual too? Or is it asking too much for these folks to learn our nation's language?

I know if I moved to say, Germany I wouldn't expect everything to be written in English for me...no, I think I'd have to learn German. Just like the legal immigrants of the past learned English.

OK I'm done with this one...Just want to say I respect everyone's opinion.

:1106: :icon_biggrin: :America:

[bullseye]

Here you go okie.... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40146
A newly released study shows illegal aliens cost the federal government over $10 billion a year in services.
The research, conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies, used Census Bureau data from 2002 to find the fiscal impact of illegal aliens. The $10 billion figure was determined by subtracting taxes paid by illegals from the value of services they enjoy.

There is more with some nice figures in it also. I do realise it is not as current as I would have liked, but figure how many illegals were here then and how many are here now, then re-do the math.

[pigpen]

10 Billion? That is a lot more than I thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn!!!!!!!!

[MicroPilot]

Here you go okie.... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40146
A newly released study shows illegal aliens cost the federal government over $10 billion a year in services.
The research, conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies, used Census Bureau data from 2002 to find the fiscal impact of illegal aliens. The $10 billion figure was determined by subtracting taxes paid by illegals from the value of services they enjoy...

Wouldn't this be true of just about anyone that is using these same government services?

I looked at the article and it didn't tell what study they were referencing, does anyone know?

[MID]

Wouldn't this be true of just about anyone that is using these same government services?

I looked at the article and it didn't tell what study they were referencing, does anyone know?

Only if there not paying all the taxes that they owed.

[bullseye]

I don't know what study they referenced, my points were the took the taxes out of the equation, and there are a few million more illegals now that when this was done.

[iocane]

RandyCO3G said

As for the crop-picking argument, Britain commissioned a study that figured out (I tend to believe it) that, overall, it's cheaper to import crops than to pay out the benefits it takes to have illegals pick domestic crops. Kinda screws the farmer, though.

We are told by the media that we need a whole lot of illegals to help the farmers. How come people beleive we need 12 to 20 million illegals working in all sorts of non-farming jobs to help the farmers. Heres what happenned
with illegals and farmers in Oregon. Used to be kids picked berries so they could have money for movies, etc.
Goverment banned hiring them. Then state goverment required all farmers hiring anyone to have liability insurance. Then state owned Saif insurance promptly dropped the insurance policy of man farmers. So to hire people farmers had to hire labor contracters who had the insurance. The Labor contractors crews are illegals.
Even if a farmer did have the required insurance, if they use labor contractors they have to sign a no hire anyone else agreement. Then the labor contractos might not even send a crew, so crop rots. I tried to at least get the agriculture research fields openned up to hiring actual citizens. It was approved, plenty of people wanted the jobs. Then it was all shut down because of the state agencies sign those contracts to. Its just ridiculous.
Plus there is all the state agencies that constantly inspect the farms. Their is one loop hole in if someone takes a bunch of classes and earns a master gardener certificate, they can be allowed to pick berries in a state research plot. If anyone has any doubts I can take pictures during harvest a month from now. A bunch of well off retired people with good cars picking berries on the condition they get to keep some of the berries.

Interesting how if a farmer hires illegals they look the otherway at all sorts of things. Hire actual legal employees and they never leave you alone. So if you want peace call the laor contractors. Who then make you sign a contract that you will not hire anyone else. Plus the big cooperate farms that hire illegals get so much goverment subsidies that it pretty much covers paying the illegals. Follow the part line get rewarded, don't and you get trouble. Now there is the must know spanish push. If you work in agriculture, then your supposed to know spanish to keep your job. Its spreading into other fields. Last year the state goverment fired a bunch of people fighting forest fires for not knowing spanish. What we need is a free market. Not some sort of communistic fraud. What we have is a controlled market. This whole America belongs to Mexico thing is a side effect of this. If it was just Mexicans sneaking into America it would not be much of a problem. American can absorb lots of immigrants. The big problem is the country of Mexico is literally extending power over America; their rules, their system.

Its a myth that Americans won't do these jobs. Also its a myth that everyone does not want their children working in the fields. What they want is for their children to eventually get into a good career. Even teenagers of rich people would work in the fields, of course for them it wasn't for the money. Back before the state banned it there was the regular occurence of well off people (above middle class)dragging there kids out to berry fields. Often the teenager had just done something really stupid and the parent was punishing them.