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yellowhand
07-11-2010, 03:06 AM
Here in the Southwest, south east Arizona to be more exact, most all of you have heard we're having a little problem with some of the folks on the Southern side of our Border and their travels north. People who have never owned a firearm, are purchasing weapons in great numbers. Four miles north of the border, where I live, pretty much in the middle of the problem, most folks are now going armed at all times except for the larger towns and cities and we don't have many that meet that definition.
As the new folks purchase weapons, we older hard headed folks are being asked a lot of questions, and one that comes up a lot is, what gun and just how much ammo and spare mags would I need, if the problems get up close and in their faces. If one dials 911 in this location, 45 minutes to an hour or more is about normal response time.
Several of us came up with the following, based upon weight, local conditions, and expense.
AZ is an open/closed and also CCW state. You may carry without a permit here conceled.
So handguns are a first choice for many new people.
We came up with a four inch 38/357 revolver, if only one handgun is in the home.
New shooters don't handle recoil well at first, so 38 takes care of this in the beginning until they gain confidence.
Medium size gun fanny packs handle the 38/357 revolver, as well as a half dozen speed loaders.
It's hot here and people dress in shorts and tee shirts, so fanny packs are how many people go. You also blend in with the runners and exercise nuts.
Fanny packs also travel well where people gather, church, temple, theaters and stores.
Ammo suggestion is 100 rounds, two boxes at the home, with another box once a month for practice. We offer to reload for new people, at cost, they are not used to dropping paychecks for the next new thing that shoots, and when they first get started, costs is considered heavy for them.
After we get new people taking first steps for their own protection, we ease them into conversation and also a range outing to fire a rifle. We start them off on a 22 auto most of the time. They learn about mags, increased distance or range of weapons and don't get beat up with recoil! Depending on how they do with the first session, the 22 LR, firing a few rounds from an AR platform in 223/5.56 that just happens to be handy, gets them over their fears of shooting a real military rifle and round.
Of special note: Please don't hand a new shooter a 300 Winchester mag on a 7 pound bolt action and say go for it! IF we can ever get them back to a range, it takes many hours to get their confidence back up and over their fear of massive recoil.
People new to firearms are not like us. Most have never learned anything about firearms except what they hear on CNN. They have learned to fear the weapon, not the jackass holding it.
We work them slowly into the shooting sports and protection of their families. We don't tell them about our war experiences, we don't arm them with N frame Smiths in 44 mag. Our goal is to come out the other side of the job, with a new shooter, armed well, able to shoot at a reasonable distance, 15 feet of so, and one that trusts us to not scare them to death or tear up their shoulders.
We do this here for a simple reason. Every person that can shoot, defend them selves and their homes is another person that can deter crime, and the criminals that could face us, if left unchecked. And also vote for THEIR gun rights as well as ours.
A single mother of three teens who I'm teaching to shoot, as noted above, asked me today if SHE could learn to shoot. A year ago, this lady was anti-gun. If I do this properly, come November she will be a solid pro gun vote.
Anti- gun folks are just budding gun nuts we have learned to turn around with a little time, patience, and ammo.
If we don't teach them about guns, teach them to shoot, spend time with them at the range, the anti gun people will spend the time to turn them against us.
Any and all ways to do this better will be gladly accepted...

Buddymack
07-11-2010, 04:01 AM
I agree that some if schooled and un propagandized properly will turn around, people are people but it is hard to turn from indoctrination IMHO, it is one reason though I have some hope left for this country....sometimes a hard turn to the left wakes the sleepy car passengers up a little more abruptly...I used to live in AZ, I saw it coming, I was in sales and many a rich guy would brag to me how he hired a whole family to do their tile job or something for some ungodly cheap amount, that dog you feed becomes your dog!
My suggestion would be something in the .380 round, not exactly a man stopper but definitely an attention getter at the same time it doesn't kick like a mule and scare away what would be a future gun supporter, I watch on the Net sometimes some guy will have his girl shoot some hellfire kicking weapon as you hear laughter in the camera mans voice, you see the smile of the girl shooting but the eyes tell the story....she isn't going to shoot that scary thing again....which after being married over a quarter century one thing I will say is that was a huge mistake....because if she aint in it guess what buddy? lol
anyway...my vote for first weapon is something like a Walther 380:wink:

Sturmvogel
07-11-2010, 06:58 AM
First point here Yellowhand is good post and great ideas… I like your way of thinking; good job to you and your friends down south.
As for handgun ‘type’, I agree with you 100% as a first and introductory weapon. I carried a 38/357 revolver on the force for years before bumping up to a semi-auto. I would suspect that even in this day and age more gun fights have been stopped, historically, and more ‘nasty’s put down with the .38 than with anything else. There are many good man stopping rounds in .38 out there today as well… the round nose lead bullets are for collectors in this day and age. Yeah I know, I said ‘man-stopping and .38 in the same sentence; a 1911 in .45 ACP is a better way to go, but these are novices to your point.
Also, a good, well made double action is far easier, in my opinion, for a novice to master, both on the range and in the thought process compared to a semi-auto. Not to step on your toes Buddy, but my wife had a heck of a time racking my Walther unless she ‘thought’ about it. Not to say that you don’t always have one in the ‘pipe’, but it has to get there somehow. With the revolver there is no ‘safety’ per se to worry about, no slide to rack, no de-cocking lever, no clips to load, no chance to stove pipe etc., just point and shoot. A DA that is too ‘stiff’ may be an issue for a slightly built woman or a younger adult so I suspect that you find a model that isn’t quite so stiff and work it in.
Best of luck to you Yellowhand and mind your 6!

rudrules
07-11-2010, 07:48 AM
+111111 for Yellowhand!

I'm behind you 100%:rockon:

Rudy :America::2pistol:

Buddymack
07-11-2010, 08:12 AM
I guess I would add single action to that too, I still stick with a semi though I love metal but personal protection is another thing ...I am a crime victim and I wasn't stopped by his .380 I captured the guy...but that being said it's a good thing I did when I did because the next shot was a Glazer safety shot...also you can't beat the round count...:2pistol:

Enigma Nostra
07-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I do the occasional personal instruction. Mostly focused on first time shooters, and alot of females.

I actually follow a different theory of confidence building, but it is one that requires attention and communication with the student.

I tend to start them on a higher caliber weapon. For a pistol, .45 ACP is my prefered. For rifle, .308.

Ive found that students that start on small calibers often have issues moving up. They like the .22, its easy, its not scary once they get use to it, but the larger stuff is. Alots due to noise.

So I start them by explaining why I am going to start them on a larger weapon. I explain that its to show them that while they may not prefer it, its not something to fear. It *is* something they are capable of.

Then we go over the weapon. I like to use a suppressed model when possible. I have had good success with a 1911 with a Yankee Hill can on it. heavier sure, but it takes some of the noise fear away for the first shot. We explain the weapon, make sure they understand it. Then I have them dry fire once usually, often without telling them there is not a round in the chamber. I find the second times easier, they have already made the leap once. so then i load them a single round,and get them to fire. Sometimes we stay with that, sometimes move to unsuppressed, sometimes move to another weapon. The suppressed .22 is usually really popular.

This is accompanied by coaching and support, and making them feel accomplished. Even if they choose to stay small caliber, they *know* they can do more, when, and if, they choose.

-Enigma Nostra

Optimus Prime
07-11-2010, 10:36 PM
I lean towards what Enigma suggests as well, although I will start off very new shooters with a .22lr of some flavor (Walther P22 and Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 my most used for this roll) if they're a bit nervous. A first time shooter is much much more likely to continue shooting if they're able to concentrate on the basics and get hits, regardless of the gun type. Not to mention .22lr ammo is cheap, so I'm willing to let them shoot up as much as they want.

But I do agree that "recoil sensitivity" is crap. If anybody tells you .45acp is "too big" or recoils "too much," tell them it's BS. It's all about proper stance and grip. Get as much meat on the gun as you can, and it's all good. See this blog post of mine from a while ago. (http://http://gunscoffee.blogspot.com/2010/03/women-and-high-caliber-recoil-fallacy.html) She shot amazingly well for never handling a handgun before that day.

chili
07-13-2010, 01:07 PM
Yellowhand, good on you for being active in teaching new folks to shoot and winning them over from the dark side.

Recoil sensitivity is subjective on the individual to a point. All most people need is the confidence to shoot the larger calibers. Many of us have seen the videos of new female shooters getting recoil wacked in the forehead, how many of those were turned off to shooting? Point is, learning what the new shooter is comfortable with is key, be it a 22LR, 38 Spl or S&W 500. Let them shoot as much as they want or can afford. When they are ready to move up, help them with the transition.

DAA1
07-13-2010, 06:22 PM
I agree with the idea of starting new shooters off on a 22LR then moving up.
I have found that a 9mm is pretty good automatic, but like my dad said "cut your teeth on a wheel gun first" and by gosh if he did not get me a ruger single six to start with. His .357 I thought was too much for me, but as I learned later in life 38 special/357 are the best wheel guns a person could shoot.

I love my dad and will always remember the ruger single six he gave me when all I wanted was a ruger mark II. The mark II's are a pain to clean, the single six with the 22 mag cylinder is still a easy to clean solis shooting pistol.

Though I now have grown to enjoy the 9mm and 45auto.

As for rifles, nothing beats an AR15, but the M1 carbine is a great rifle to learn on, small, easy to handle and NO recoil.

The bigger stuff comes with time and training.

Norton
07-13-2010, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=DAA1;191780

As for rifles, nothing beats an AR15, but the M1 carbine is a great rifle to learn on, small, easy to handle and NO recoil.
QUOTE]

DAA I agree 100% on the M 1 Carbine.. A great long arm to move up to after the 22. Easy to load, simple saftey light recoil.. But some recoil and noise to make it fun.

Optimus Prime
07-13-2010, 10:00 PM
[QUOTE=DAA1;191780

As for rifles, nothing beats an AR15, but the M1 carbine is a great rifle to learn on, small, easy to handle and NO recoil.
QUOTE]

DAA I agree 100% on the M 1 Carbine.. A great long arm to move up to after the 22. Easy to load, simple saftey light recoil.. But some recoil and noise to make it fun.

I don't have an M1, but I've used my Yugo SKS for similar reasons.

lp-op
07-14-2010, 04:05 AM
You know, of course if your out hunting.... you may have different ideas, but for home defense and non-shooters feeling the need (not necessarily concealed carry), break 'em in on a 12 gauge, if you can get them shooting that, well, aiming under pressure and accuracy, is not as important as a short barreled revolver or pistol.

Course if you have to carry, though never shot one, believe Charter (?) makes one called 'The Judge' a 410/45 long colt, but don't know what the recoil would be like with the .410...

If you are a gun store owner, though, your recommendation may be that 3000.00 IPSC rig you got for sale.

Paperpuncher
07-14-2010, 04:37 AM
Good post Yellowhand!

DAA1
07-14-2010, 04:57 AM
You know, of course if your out hunting.... you may have different ideas, but for home defense and non-shooters feeling the need (not necessarily concealed carry), break 'em in on a 12 gauge, if you can get them shooting that, well, aiming under pressure and accuracy, is not as important as a short barreled revolver or pistol.

Course if you have to carry, though never shot one, believe Charter (?) makes one called 'The Judge' a 410/45 long colt, but don't know what the recoil would be like with the .410...

If you are a gun store owner, though, your recommendation may be that 3000.00 IPSC rig you got for sale.

That's why I could never be a gun store owner, I would rather sell a customer a practical firearm versus a high dollar competition rig.

12ga, is a bit much for some new shooters though there are some reduced recoil loads that make it better, also the mini shells. Buckshot in full power loads is a great defensive/home protection round, but an awful hard recoil for a new shooter that is hesitant about shooting. I like a 12ga, it took me several years to like it, 410 or a 20ga are pretty good to.

97th Signalman
07-14-2010, 09:08 AM
For a handgun you might do well with a .22 to start but I would recommend a .38 special wheelgun for new shooters. Recoil in moderate and, beyond basic safety issues, there is nothing complicated to remember and you won't have to learn any drills regarding stopages. It's like snapshot digital camera...just point and shoot.

I like the suggestion of the M1 Carbine for a starting long gun. The only caveat here, is that if you want stopping power, you had better use soft point ammo. That aside, few rifles are as easy to shoot as the Carbine...ultra simple with very little recoil. Remember that CMP is the place to get one that works at a reasonable price. An SKS is just about as simple and reliable but my Yugo is probably a bit heavy for a slightly built new shoooter.