Bushmaster AR-15 Pending Purchase Question

[Longhorn789]

I wanted to buy an old school SP1...however, I don't want to pay $1100 for an old, used AR-15. Moreover, I don't know anything about building one...

Therefore, if I want a full-length AR....I'm looking for a regular A2 20" barrel.

I don't like scopes that much, so I don't need the A3 removable handle..

About the best price I can find is SOG. They have Bushmaster A2s for $739.95. Of course, I'd rather have a Colt..however, I can't see why I should pay the upcharge for the name.

Anyone specifically LIKE or DISLIKE the Bushmaster AR-15 A2 ? ? ?

SOG's Ad: Bushmaster M16 with A2 Carrying Handle .223 Cal. This semi-auto 5.56mm/ .223 Rem. Cal comes with a 30Rd mag, 20” chrome lined heavy bbl, solid buttstock, bayonet lug, and birdcage flash suppressor. 39 1/2” length, and weighs 7.43 lbs. without mag. RETAIL: $1100.00
#BMAS-BCWA2S20 NO CALIFORNIA $739.95

[Geilt]

Is there a big reason why you would want a Colt AR? Sure they are nice but like most ARs they have their own set of specific issues. Not necessarily problems, but just things to keep in mind. Also, especially with Colt, you're going to be paying at least 25% more just for the Colt name stamp on the mag well.

Bushmaster, DPMS, and others to some extent, also have a premium associated with their names so they are more expensive. Are they better than others? Yeah, sometimes they are. If you're looking for a prebuilt AR the budget models tend to have cheaper parts which, as we all know, just means headaches down the road. Major brands tend to use components from trusted manufacturers.

If you haven't already, look at the Rock River ARs. While I don't own one I've shot many and they were all very nice. They don't charge an arm and a leg like Colt or DPMS but you get a quality rifle.

[IMBLITZVT]

Well first off, this is a modern version... not even close to the SP1. So if you want a standard issue modern AR... this is it. Seems like a good price.

A lot of people refuse to buy Colt ARs because they changed the pin size that connects the uppers and lowers... so you can not interchange parts. I do not think they do it anymore but they did on at least some SP1s

Knowing that I got a M4 type Bushmaster and I have been happy with it.

Now if you are looking for a Vietnam gun... you need to look elsewhere. The lower is different, the rear sights and upper are totally different. The handguards are different... etc.

[nalioth]

Moreover, I don't know anything about building one...
What's to know? you put in about 8 pins and springs and call it done.

http://www.m-aparts.com/

http://www.model1sales.com/

http://www.del-ton.com/


There is no "building" involved, unless you want to just do it that way. Assemble it yourself (get your SP1 package) and save money.

[amd65]

It's easy---you don't "build" an AR, you assemble it. The hardest part is attaching barrel to upper with the correct headspace, and that isn't even hard. It's a non-issue if you buy a complete upper.
Assembling my A1 was easy, and you can get a complete, like new upper for $300.

[IMBLITZVT]

If you want a real old school AR... here you go!

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

The lower is still not right but it does have the prong flash hider. $900 is a lot cheaper. Fulton makes some nice guns. I would probably choose them over most.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/Legacy-600_50.jpg

[jmikey]

I had the Bushy A3 20" and Bushy M4. Both great rifles but I sold the 20" and wish I still had it. I qualified with the old school rifle in 1967 and would recommend the Bushy now.

[remauto1100]

"The hardest part is attaching barrel to upper with the correct headspace, and that isn't even hard. It's a non-issue if you buy a complete upper."

Say what? The barrel only goes in one way(barrel has a pin that goes into a cutout on the upper receiver) and will only go in to one depth! Torque the barrel nut to around 55ft. lbs and call it a day. Assuming you use all mil-spec parts your headspace will be correct just about every buildup of an ar. Of course its smart to check it when finished building.


Your best bet if you want a decent 20" A2 is go with a DPMS 20" kit for like $440(front sight alread is installed for you!) then buy a DPMS lower receiver for around $110.

You will need:
Roll pin punch set and hammer
Armorers tool for tightening barrel nut (costs like $20 or find someone near you that will let you bring your barrel and upper receiver over for the tightening ritual)
needle nose pliers to made life better assembling trigger assembly

No machining needed (AKA NO POWER TOOLS SHOULD BE NEAR YOU WHEN BUILDING AN AR15).

Like the guy said above its just ASSEMBLY. Very easy rifle to build and there are lots of websites to get pics from or try an AGI AR15 how to build DVD (this is how I learned).

All else fails buy "me" a kit and I will buy "your" receiver and build it for you and have my FFL transfer it to you via your FFL guy. (perfectly legal)
You'll have maybe $600 in a complete DPMS 20" A2 after shipping and paying your FFL guy on your end.
Ask anyone that owns a DPMS as to how happy they are with their rifle. I got a 16" SS fluted Bull Barrel with freefloat handguard A3 upper receiver. Shoots great. Gobbles up any ammo I put in it. I reload alot so I use all kinds of brands of brass.

Or find a build party on ar15.com and bring your parts. Those guys sleep better at night after doing a few free builds for other gents! :rockon:

P.S. Longhorn get your stuff together asap and I will be in Oklahoma City Monday until June 8th. Bring your stuff up and I will build it for you in a couple hours and then we can goto the range there. I gotta scope I need to sight in anyway.

[Longhorn789]

If you want a real old school AR... here you go!

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

The lower is still not right but it does have the prong flash hider. $900 is a lot cheaper. Fulton makes some nice guns. I would probably choose them over most.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/Legacy-600_50.jpg

HEYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I found a winner! That's an awesome looking rifle!

If I had my "druthers", I'd take my time and build based on what I am hearing about the low difficulty level of AR builds. However, with the time to spend on that stuff anymore, the Fulton AR might be the ticket!

[Longhorn789]

"The hardest part is attaching barrel to upper with the correct headspace, and that isn't even hard. It's a non-issue if you buy a complete upper."

Say what? The barrel only goes in one way(barrel has a pin that goes into a cutout on the upper receiver) and will only go in to one depth! Torque the barrel nut to around 55ft. lbs and call it a day. Assuming you use all mil-spec parts your headspace will be correct just about every buildup of an ar. Of course its smart to check it when finished building.


Your best bet if you want a decent 20" A2 is go with a DPMS 20" kit for like $440(front sight alread is installed for you!) then buy a DPMS lower receiver for around $110.

You will need:
Roll pin punch set and hammer
Armorers tool for tightening barrel nut (costs like $20 or find someone near you that will let you bring your barrel and upper receiver over for the tightening ritual)
needle nose pliers to made life better assembling trigger assembly

No machining needed (AKA NO POWER TOOLS SHOULD BE NEAR YOU WHEN BUILDING AN AR15).

Like the guy said above its just ASSEMBLY. Very easy rifle to build and there are lots of websites to get pics from or try an AGI AR15 how to build DVD (this is how I learned).

All else fails buy "me" a kit and I will buy "your" receiver and build it for you and have my FFL transfer it to you via your FFL guy. (perfectly legal)
You'll have maybe $600 in a complete DPMS 20" A2 after shipping and paying your FFL guy on your end.
Ask anyone that owns a DPMS as to how happy they are with their rifle. I got a 16" SS fluted Bull Barrel with freefloat handguard A3 upper receiver. Shoots great. Gobbles up any ammo I put in it. I reload alot so I use all kinds of brands of brass.

Or find a build party on ar15.com and bring your parts. Those guys sleep better at night after doing a few free builds for other gents! :rockon:

P.S. Longhorn get your stuff together asap and I will be in Oklahoma City Monday until June 8th. Bring your stuff up and I will build it for you in a couple hours and then we can goto the range there. I gotta scope I need to sight in anyway.

That's a real good idea!

[remauto1100]

That's a real good idea!
If you want to meet me up at Oklahoma City next weekend just PM me and let me know and I will get you all set up with directions and contact info and we will bring another black rifle into the world!

[amd65]

Seriously, why buy Fulton, when you can make an A1 yourself. Ohio Ordinance has complete A1 Colt uppers, used excellent (what I used) for $250, like new for $300.
Then, you need a bolt carrier group, charging handle, lower receiver + lower internals, and buttstock/buffer set.
My used excellent upper really is excellent, with very minor surface wear, perfect bore, and the Colt gray finish.
I am getting very tiny groups at 100 yards with it, and it has worked perfectly from the very first round, now up to about 200 rounds.
There are a couple threads, and pics of it in the AR forum.

[LCPL 4]

Like to add that I think I read awhile back on one of the AR forums that Nodakspud was coming out with some retro style lowers soon if they haven't allready.

Found it with the ol'GIS...

http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm

[mrbgt]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=119&t=438676 check these out

[Longhorn789]

Ok...I've done a bit of research...and looked over the links you guys gave me..

I think if I'm going to build, I need to go for a slab-side with three-prong duck-bill like this link shows...

http://www.retroblackrifle.com/ModGde/RflGde/601.html

I don't know if this is a hard cat to find...

Also don't know if this is what they call a "pencil barrel"....

I definetely don't want a bolt assist or bird-cage flash hider....

[weasel_master]

Yup that's the pencil barrel. If you compare it to any other AR barrel you can see it is noticably thinner.

[Longhorn789]

Yup that's the pencil barrel. If you compare it to any other AR barrel you can see it is noticably thinner.

If I can find one....how much can I expect to spend??

[amd65]

Finding a non-forward assist upper will cost ya, I see them from time to time on gunbroker, or the ar15.com equipment echange. You'll pay at least twice what a forward assist upper would cost. The pencil barrel is not a problem, thats what's on the A1 uppers that are available. There are repro duckbill flash hiders available, or just use the more common three prong variety. Most of the parts venders have those.

[amd65]

Also, if you are going completely retro, you will be interested to know that NoDakSpud is producing original style A1 lower receivers...
And, thanks for the link to retroblackrifles...I hadn't seen that site before.

[Longhorn789]

Scored this upper today at the show..

I guess now I have to figure out what I'm doing..

Yes, I saw the Nodak Spud receivers. I'd like to find an original Colt of course, if I can find one. We'll see if I'm just dreaming there....

[okie shooter]

Thats definately old school, ar/m-16, even pre fa.

[mrbgt]

thats sweet!! what the twist 1/12 ,1/14 ??

[IMBLITZVT]

From my limited AR knowledge, I thought it was very important to get a matching bolt and upper (with barrel attached). Then the headspace will be correct. If you get the bolt and the barrel from different places you may have to set the head space. Kind of like buying a non matching AK parts kit. If the heaspace is correct, you great. If not they its a real pain in the ass...

A few things you should remember. When buying these parts little by little, you will sometimes spend just as much as you would to buy a new rifle.

Now you know I have built, 7Ak, a 1919, a FAL and I am working on more. But I bought an AR because the last time I priced it out, I was only saving a few bucks... Now if you can get a org style lower, it may be worth doing. From the AR kits I have seen, they never shoot as well as a new gun. The triggers are not as nice, parts have a little wear... I can not put my finger on it exactly.

So I guess what I am saying is watch out and price the gun up before you start buying parts... make sure you are saving enough to make it worth your time. Also remember that a parts kit gun will not have the resale value of a store bought gun. Make sure you get a bolt with the upper. Building might or might not be worth doing... make sure you are going the right way before you start in. Good Luck!

[IMBLITZVT]

Oh and you probably know this but watch the pin connector sizes when buying a Colt upper or lower....

[nalioth]

From my limited AR knowledge, I thought it was very important to get a matching bolt and upper (with barrel attached). Then the headspace will be correct. If you get the bolt and the barrel from different places you may have to set the head space. Kind of like buying a non matching AK parts kit. If the heaspace is correct, you great. If not they its a real pain in the ass...
You can use a new bolt and be fine. The AR15 doesn't have headspace issues like other rifles.

When I was in the army, the old "don't mix your bolts" was a throwback to an older generation of rifles, that didn't use the locking system the AR15 uses.

[amd65]

I agree, bolts are not an issue on a correctly barreled upper. I have read, however, that once you use a bolt with a particular upper, you should not move that bolt from upper to upper. Bolt carrier, sure, bolt-no.
As to parts kit AR's not shooting as well as a new rifle, my A1 puts the lie to that (as far as my rifle goes). After yesterday's range trip, I am up to about 400 rounds through my AR. It has worked perfectly, and is very accurate. Yesterday, there was a guy at the range shooting a heavy barrel Bushmaster A2. Not only didn't he get nearly as good groups with both of us using irons (I prefer to think it was the shooter in this case!), but he had several stoppages he attributed to rough feed ramps. I was shooting Federal AE 50gn JHP's yesterday for the first time, with no feed issues and great accuracy. He had installed the lead buttstock weight in his rifle, and he seemed shocked at how light my rifle was when we were comparing them.
As to cost, I believe I have a little over $500 in mine. That includes magazines, but not the Hakko 4x21 scope.
The Hakko 4x21 is a great carry handle scope, by the way. Made in Japan, it is a nice piece of optics and works very well, on sale at CDNN.
I bought 3 Colt GI surplus 20rd mags off the equipment exchange on AR15.com. I find I really like these mags--they seem heavier duty than current mil-spec thirties, and have the metal follower.
I like your flatside upper, though I think I prefer the forward assist A1. Good luck finding a Colt lower!

[Longhorn789]

Good luck finding a Colt lower!

Yeah..I don't think that is happening from what I can tell..

[IMBLITZVT]

Yeah I am sure that you can build one and make it nicer than any factory gun. I am just saying that most I have seen have been surplus guns and you can tell. They still are not bad. If you know what you are doing, I am sure you can even make a nicer AR than you can buy... two stage trigger..etc.

Oh and you could give a half inch gun to some people and they still could not hit a barn.

Yeah I guess if you are getting a new upper and a new bolt from the same manufacture I would not be worried. Any other way, I would still check it out before shooting. If you are getting a used upper I would make sure you get the bolt that it was shot with. I guess I am really just suggesting you read more on the subject...

Good luck with it! I am been thinking of doing one too...

[amd65]

In a perfect world, perhaps I would buy a field gauge and check headspace. In my case, I bought a used US GI Colt upper made between 1965 and '70, dropped in a new CMT bolt and carrier and they seemed like a perfect fit, so I went with it. No problem.
A standard DoubleStar trigger group was used. I did give a light polish using a dremel felt wheel and flitz polish to the sear areas of the hammer and trigger. The result is an excellent trigger pull. I just found out that Bill Springfield, who many of us (including me) have had work on our CETME triggers does work on the standard AR trigger--I may go that route someday, but maybe not--I'm perfectly happy with the trigger as it stands.
After my first two AR's (first, a kit built A1 shorty made by who knows, second a heavy barrel Bushmaster A2 which was never as accurate as the shorty), I never thought I would like another AR as much as this A1. It is so light, so accurate, so ergonomically perfect for me...Right now, I don't want to shoot anything else. Naturally, this happens when 5.56 ammo prices go through the roof!

[jfowl31]

:Longhorn, is that an original SP-1 upper?

If so, you should contact the seller and see if he has the colt bolt group as well... most people wont sell them separately.

How much did you pay for the upper?

Ive seen them around here for about $300-400 and up to $450-500 with the bolt.

There was a complete SP-1 at the Saxet gun show last month for 1300 I think. and there were probbaly 4 or 5 different guys selling SP-1 uppers, all but one of those guys had the bolt and charging handle.

[Longhorn789]

I paid $300 out the door...no bolt...

I decided not to mess with a build right now...

Too many irons in the fire...

I'm going to buy the Bushmaster and sell this upper...

Anyone interested? I'll post it on the For Sale Section for $300 plus shipping as soon as I get a second.....

[jfowl31]

interested... just poor!

[amd65]

I really don't see why you would want the Bushmaster rather than this AR...
Last week at the range, I saw a guy with a fairly new Bushmaster have several stoppages. He wasn't near as accurate at 100 yards as I was, either. While that can be attributed to the shooter, my previous AR was a Bushmaster heavy barrel, and I never got very good accruacy out of it, either.
My point is, build THIS AR. Forget about the retro clone, 100% repro A1 build. Use an A2 lower, and build a fun, accurate rifle. You then have the basis to build whatever variation you want in the furure. Add an M4 upper and tele-stock. Add a varmint upper and A2 butt. The possibilities are endless.
There is nothing magical about the Bushmaster--in fact, the ARF-commers seem to talk them down. They are good solid rifles. But, the one you build yourself is magic

[jfowl31]

Bushmaster makes a fine AR... if you want to buy the whole repro, I say go for it. Me personally, with a good deal like you got on the SP-1 upper, I'd go ahead with that. That's just my personal preference.

I'm sure that Bushy repro is a fine rifle and will shoot just fine.

I've seen good AR's of various makes, and lemons of all makes as well... in fact the first 3 or 4 AR's I shot were "lemons" and jammed up a lot... 1 was a Colt, 1 a Bushy, 1 a DPMS, and 1 a Rock River I think.

I'm just hoping mine functions well outta the box for what I want it for... varmint hunting.

[okie shooter]

Longhorn, I have read that the improvement in some of the parts of the ar/m-16 technolgies between the days of vietnam to now are vast. The plastics they used on the a-2 and later rifles are so much stronger than the orginals, I imgaine there are improvements in the metals and such too.

If you want to really have a retro rifle, not a collectable one, you could build your self one, and have one that functions relayablely and such, or get a newer variant which you can shoot. The only thing that would attract me to a older one was if I had carried one, and even in my fathers war, he was issued a m-1 carbine over a m-16 for his sidearm.

[Longhorn789]

Oh I know.. I'd much rather have an SP1 than a new production Bushmaster..

I just have too much going on to take on another firearm project...even if it is an easy one...

[amd65]

The plastics are very much improved, but the metalurgy really isn't. The A2 lower has been reinforced in areas, but that is it. The earliest AR's were made from 6065 alloy. This was changed to 7075 a long time ago.
I never carried an A1. My interest is in a full length 20" barrel of very light weight. I prefer the triangle handguards. The simplicity and functionality of the A1 sights appeal to me. Finally, the A1 buttstock fits me better, makes for a slightly shorter weapon, and is quicker to the shoulder due to it's rounded contour as compared to the flat, checkered A2 stock.
High speed/low drag retro stlye.

[robocop10mm]

The only issue I have with non-Colts is the bolt. Everyone says their guns are built to mil-spec but will hem and haw about whether they are "Tested to mil spec".

Colt is the only manufacturer (of civilian AR's) who tests their bolts to mil-spec. Hence the MP stamp on the bolt. MP being "magnectic particle tested". Basically the bolt is test fired in a fixture with a proof load and then magna-fluxed. This reveals any cracks, however minute.

Bushmaster makes a good rifle. I will not trust any rifle with out an MP stamped bolt, period.

Get a Bushy, DPMS, Armalite, etc. and put an MP bolt in it and it will do fine.

[amd65]

I used a CMT bolt which IS MP tested...

[Alaskagrown]

The only issue I have with non-Colts is the bolt. Everyone says their guns are built to mil-spec but will hem and haw about whether they are "Tested to mil spec".

Colt is the only manufacturer (of civilian AR's) who tests their bolts to mil-spec. Hence the MP stamp on the bolt. MP being "magnectic particle tested". Basically the bolt is test fired in a fixture with a proof load and then magna-fluxed. This reveals any cracks, however minute.

Bushmaster makes a good rifle. I will not trust any rifle with out an MP stamped bolt, period.

Get a Bushy, DPMS, Armalite, etc. and put an MP bolt in it and it will do fine. Robocop not so fast with the Colt is the only because they aren't as for differences there are many others.

BCM, LMT and Stag all MP test their bolts along with Colt. Bushy and RRA do not.

Colt, BCM, and LMT all stake their carrier keys correctly, Stag/CMT, RRA and Bushy do not.

Colt, LMT, Stag/CMT and BCM all have mil-spec receiver extensions. RRA and Bushy do not.

Colt and LMT and BCM (when available) all have CORRECT m4 feedramps cut prior to anodizing. RRA and Bushy have ramps that are dremeled.

Colt and LMT use an F marked frontsight base, RRA and Bushy do not Stag may or may not

Colt and LMT both stake the castle nut on carbines Bushy and RRA do not

Colt and LMT both have 1:7 twists standard RRA and Bushy do only in special runs or as an upgrade

Colt and LMT both use the same 4150 barrel steel Bushy uses a different grade of 4150 and RRA doesn't use 4150

Colt and Bushmaster use taper pins to hold the FSB LMT and RRA use straight pins

the list goes on but these are the main things

nevermind the fact that at 1 point when called on it Bushy and RRA have both lied about something being mil-spec when it wasn't and in some cases instead of making things to spec use loctite

[Alaskagrown]

BCM stands for Bravo Company Manufacturing

[amd65]

My CMT carrier seems very well staked.

[Alaskagrown]

CMT seems to go back and forth on quality of the staking here is a pic to illustrate what I am talking about it is a difference between CMT and LMT the CMT staking in the pic does nothing to stop the bolts from rotating out
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w88/Gibbles1221/CMT_LMT.jpg
pics are not mine borrowed from another site

[drine]

My son's Bushmaster carbine is highly accurate and has never failed with any ammo he put in it. I had an OLY. Very heavy full size and they didn't contour the barrel on that model. I liked it although it is at the bottom of the price range which may or may not equate with quality. Again, very accurate and never had any stoppages. RRA I nearly bought had such tight tolerances on everything it didn't seem natural, if that sounds right. DPMS seems to be the current all-around fav by many. Top notch quality and decent price. Off the shelf, I'd go with it. Very solid, tight but not too tight. Just my .02. You guys are making me want to build one though.

[Alaskagrown]

DPMS doesn't MP test their bolts, stake their gas keys or castle nuts, have M4 ramps, use 4150 steel for their barrels or use an F marked front sight. These are all of course items that are per mil-spec standards and do not mean that the gun will not run well for the majority of shooters.