M60 Question

[Smokehouse69]

M60 headspacing and timing. 35 years ago I got into a "discussion" with a CW4, about the necessity of timing a M60. The discussion came about because I removed all the bolts from our M60s and put them in safe (at the CW4's request) he was worried about a band maniac hippies breaking into our Arms room and stealing the M60s. I neglected to tag the bolts to identify which gun they came out of. My reasoning was from something I learned during my training at Ft. Lee's armorers school. I was told that M60 had a "floating bolt" which negated the necessity of "timing" the firearm. Bolts and barrels were fully swappable.
A few days later we shipped all the M60s off for remote storage. The CW4 claimed he was going to have someone "time" them and match the bolts. I never heard what happened after that.
Several weeks later we recovered the M60s and went to the range for yearly qualification.
Now I remember spending considerable class time on timing and headspacing the Ma Duece and the M1919, but never a mention of it in relationship to the M60.
Was the CW4 full of crap, or did I have my head up my azz??

[Perro]

the 60 has to have fixed headspace and timing

why??

so it can interchange ANY barrels in the field


just like a mg42 has quick change barrels, with preset headspace and timing so you can swap in any new barrel at will

its all set at the factory, there is no headspace or timing adjustment like on a browning 1917, 1919, or m2

how would you set headspace or timing on a 60?? it cannot be done in the field

[gunbunny]

Yup, all you can do in the field, if I recall properly, is adjust it to feed from left or right. Oh and make sure you have the mitt if you change a hot barrel.

[XO3319]

Headspace and timing of the M60 was set at the factory-- it cannot be adjusted in the field

[DoctorCheney223]

Just like Perro said.. no headspace/timing issues.

Since we are talking about M-60's, Copesdist.com has op rods and barrel on sale in the Surplus section. I though about buying some but figure I am going to start collecting parts for an E3 conversion instead.

thanks,
Ron

[Seattlefungus]

I was a Marine 0331, M60 gunner in the early 70s. The only maintence you could do in the field was change the barrel, clean it, use the combo tool to remove carbon from the gas port. Lube the gun. That's it. The feed tray cover used a claw system that only fed from the left. The air section used a M60E I dont know the difference except it had a big round cross hair sight on the barrel. In the rear, we'd remove a set of safety wire from the gas plug for more detailed cleaning and safety wire it back up... Later, I became an armorer and we'd inspect the receiver at the chamber for cracks... The receiver killer was the blank firing adaptor, the pressure would be twice the standard chamber pressure and caused chamber cracks. Only the M1919 needed headspacing...

[M1 Tanker]

Only the M1919 needed headspacing...

*cough, cough, cough* M2HB *cough*

[wandering_ronin]

Roger That, Tanker!!!

[Seattlefungus]

Lowly marine grunts only got to look at .50's they were for Motor T, tankers, (M48's) and the Amtrac's The Battallons support weenies in fixed position had them. Line infantry didn't. I never got closer than the back of a track or 6by, I did use a 50 spotter on a 106 recoilless. You know, right after the flintlocks... LOL

[Seattlefungus]

Yeah guy's I guess I should mention, when I was in the Corps, Nixon was the president... LOL. I've seen CNN, looks like most Hummers have an M2's. Hell, we still used the 3.5 rocket launcher. Much better than the laws. And we still used the M79. I loved shooting that. The Army used to laugh at out M48 tanks with the 90MM. But it was lighter. We were just decommissioning the Ontos. A six 106mm recoilless on a light armor chassie. Ontos means "The Thing" in latin.

[drine]

I remember headspacing and timing a .50 in Germany in "84. One of the platoon sgts. was Vietnam Vet and had just reminded someone of the return spring tension with the back plate off..then POW. It's sailing down to the other end of the barracks. Don't recall the distance or "drop" but it hit a door several yards away.
A D.I. showed us how to take the M60 to the shower and wash it with hot water. Same guy put a drill on a cleaning rod to clean our M-16s for IG.
Maybe working at CAI now.

[Perro]

yeah, but at least you knew to turn the barrel in all the way and then out 2 clicks

i read somewhere that we are losing a gun a week from troops not knowing how to headspace or time a m2

a gun a week - think of all that history (ww2 dueces) being destroyed from lack of training.

i guess id rather see a drill with a cleaning brush than blown guns due to troops not understanding how to headspace a duece

[Seattlefungus]

Ya gotta wonder if the cadre's of experienced NCO's and staff NCO's are doing their jobs. I was in a weapons platoon with my primary in 0331 M-60 machine guns in Alpha 1/4. When I rotated out, I was cross trained as a 0351, 3.5 Rockets and in 60mm mortars. We ran gun drills in garrison like close order drill practice. Then on a battalion level, we'd have compatitions... Both in getting the guns in action and in accuracy.

[Perro]

different times my brother, different times

i bet in vietnam the recruits didnt have "stress cards" either :)

i was in the corps during desert shield/desert storm. We had to have a mandatory time of 1 hour to watch TV everyday cause somebody wrote a letter to there congressman. Daily, they would park us in front of the TV and turn the television on to a station that had nothing but snow. They would turn the hissing of the snow all the way down, and then they would train us on whatever the heck was on the agenda for the day.
We got to watch our 1 our of snow TV daily though, Id like to thank the private who wrote his congressman that allowed me to get my daily fix of TV while in boot camp!!

at least we didnt have stress cards when i went in, and they still roughed you up in the whiskey locker if you deserved it! I was at camp pendleton and we were having some class outside on some bleachers. I fell asleep and the Devil Dog teaching the class parted everyone like the red sea and through his full canteen at me. It hit me in the face and knocked me off the back of the 5 or 6 foot tall bleachers. It knocked the wind out of me, and it blackened my left eye - i never fell asleep in a class again though :)

its a softer, more gentler military these days - it has to be for retention. Im sure my time was softer and more gentler than your time too.

[Seattlefungus]

Don't tell me they did away with beer rations? That was our "Stress Card" A CH46 would fly in with 6 or 8 cases of Pabst Blue ribbon beer. Warm but who cared. We'ed set up squad relays, run one way, do twenty push ups, chug a beer, run back and tag the next guy. Man, but the 3 or 4 the turn you were loaded...

[drine]

I talked to a current GI who knew little about a compass, seems the GPS is all the rage. Night compass course was the hardest part in earning my EIB.

[Seattlefungus]

What happened if there is some EMP. The GPS will be a lump of crap. Not being able to shoot a resection or intersection to call in arty or a medavac will be worse than WWI.... At least they had pigeons. NOT LAUGHING... That is sad...

[IMBLITZVT]

I took a Marine shooting the other day. He is about 20 or 21 and has been in for a little while. There is a good chance he is Iraq or will be going soon. I handed him my AK and explained the action which he got quick. He started shooting... Well after 10 or so shots I figured (it was wet and rainy) that I was just missing the impacts. Nope... they were about 8ft high in the woods...

Now I took a pass on the Military, thanks to Clinton, a future wife...etc, so I do not know for sure. BUT I would hope that a Marine who has been in service for 3 or so years would know how to shoot an AK. He did not know how to use the sights... Now I know they are not suppose to be using AKs... but if the shit hits the fan twice... he still might have to pick one up and know how to use it! At least that seems logical to me???

No pistol training at all. The only pistol shooting they have done is with my M9 and other pistols.

My Brother in law went to Afghanistan and had the same level of training.

Like I said, I am no military expect but I think a US Marine should know how to operate an AK47!

[Patria Povo]

YHell, we still used the 3.5 rocket launcher.

:) My dad was a 3.5" rocketman out around the Rockpile in '68.

[Seattlefungus]

Oh for Christ's sake! When I was in the grunts in the early seventies I fried so many weapons my head hurt, my shoulder ached every joint creaked. I fired 81mm mortar, M14, M16, M79, M1919, M60, 3.5 rocket, Laws, M1911, 106 recoiless rifle, Flame thrower (With Napalm Urrah!), Claymore, TNT, C40 and a 60 mike mike mortar too. and in 3rd Mar Div, got to use the M40 bolt gun. We didn't shot the AK, but we had classes on it and knew it's function.

[drine]

I graduated Airborne school the day Grenada went down. After several months I'm in Germany on the firing range with all sorts of COMBLOC weapons we captured. Soooo, a buddy and I are loading mags for an AK-47, and a couple of other variants since it's our range we are running. Now then along comes this support company with females. Oh yeah, this 6 foot tall gal that doesn't weigh 100lbs gets on line with the AK and squeezes the trigger. Oh hell, she doesn't let up and the rifle raises up and over her head and she's still shooting. We are on the other side of our sand bags now crawling under the gravel. Long story short, she didn't hit anyone and we didn't let her shoot again. Man what fun!!!!!!!!
Also, got to shoot 60 live M203 rounds since no one showed up at that range. The tube cracked some where along the way. The NCOIC was a fun loving Samoan. We had fun until the back fence got "blowed up". Big trouble!

[wandering_ronin]

yeah, but at least you knew to turn the barrel in all the way and then out 2 clicks

i read somewhere that we are losing a gun a week from troops not knowing how to headspace or time a m2

a gun a week - think of all that history (ww2 dueces) being destroyed from lack of training.

i guess id rather see a drill with a cleaning brush than blown guns due to troops not understanding how to headspace a duece

In Bosnia we had 2 M2's and 2 M240's per platoon, one of each per section. The gunner on the 3 vehicle didn't even bother to draw the headspace and timing gauge for his M2. We went to the range once a month, and each time he hauled out his weapon...it was rusted orange. Needless to say we always ended up shooting mine. I broke mine down and wiped it down after each patrol, and did a full cleaning at least once a week or more if needed. This guy had over 10 years in. Made no bloody sense to me...glad no one was shooting at us.

[Seattlefungus]

On the day this pic was taken, Me on the gun, We had 30,000 rounds for six guns to fire all day long.:icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:

[hbs20]

Seattlefungus is the Ontos picture from 29 Palms? I have been out for 7 years already. Had some of the best times of my life in that desert. I loved my weapons so I know for sure that I could head space and time a .50. We how ever did not receive training on foreign weapons. One of my questions to ask my Marines at random was what color enemy tracers were. Seems that none of them knew. They knew that they were green after I got done with them. I did explain to them that it really would be helpful to know that the green tracers were the bad guys. Stay hard Devil dogs

[Planning]

i hated the 50 ( had one jam on me during a fire fight), liked the 30, loved the 60 ( we didn't have to lug it around much).

i was trained on the M16, M79, M1919, M60, and the 50 by the best ( UNITED STATES MARINES) and a few other weapons. i qualified on all of them.
not bad for an AIR FORCE guy.

a few of my weapons in vietnam 1968. ( i know i have shown these before), the 50's are down stairs. to heavy to lug around.

[Phirebug]

I'm kind of disappointed in the lack of training on other weapons too. we are losing a lot of .50s (and fingers) because of that. in some MOS's, like armor, headspace and timing is drilled into your head from the very start of basic training. Other MOS's fire 25 rounds through one and that's all the training they get until one day they're filling in for a guy on leave and they end up behind one. To be fair, they are greatly improving on this, but it shouldn't have taken 5 years at war to get to that point. this is something we never should have stopped doing in the first place.

your question about the m60 intrigues me. does anybody know for a fact that the m240 headspace is also set at the factory for the purposes of barrel changes in the field? I seem to recall having a very similar "discussion" with armament in the not too distant past about this. I know headspace was never covered in armorer's school, and i've never found mention of it any any of my 10 or 20/30 level tm's.

[hbs20]

In case any one cares on the 240 you need to hear 2 to 7 clicks when you push the barrel locking lever down. If you hear less than 2 or more than 7 head space is incorrect.

[Phirebug]

right, but they were trying to tell me that each barrel must be gaged to a specific weapon and then never interchanged with another weapon, because the headspace would be incorrect even if the number of clicks was right. i called BS on him and he called E6 on me.