Saiga 12 Import Ban Looming?

[Patria Povo]

The ATF announced at the 2011 SHOT Show today that they would be issuing a new ruling on Monday January 24th regarding the legality of importing shotguns. Under current ATF rules, all shotguns imported into the United States must have a "sporting purpose". This is of particular concern for Saiga 12 gauge shotguns, which have become increasingly popular in the sport of 3-Gun.

ATF spokespersons would not comment on what shotguns may or may not be affected by the new ruling.


http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/forums/posts.aspx?postID=25516

[slim]

I would think Shotguns would have implied "sporting purposes" since I`m guessing more shotguns are used for sport than for military so I fail to see the issue.

I thought the Saiga had no pistol grip or any of the other ridiculous federal definitions of "assult weapon"

Since the Saiga looks way less menacing than say the Franchi Spas (which I believe are no longer importable? correct me if I`m wrong). My point is the Franchi looks like a military weapon while I didn`t really think the Saiga fit into that category. Not being too knowledgable about the Saiga, was it originally intended for military use? And if so, do they (the current imports) resemble their military counterparts in any way?

I should read up on this.

It would seem an 870 Remington could be classified as "not for sporting purposes" along that same ridiculous thinking since so many are used by Police, SWAT, US Forces, etc.


thoughts?

[Bad Monkey]

ATF shouldn't be able to ban guns from import. If I remember correctly the power keg revolt of 1774 was about gun bans and import restictations that the founds of this country saw as wrong and unjust.

[okie shooter]

Well they did it before, and I imagine they will do it again. Yes shotguns, even without the evil features maybe in the sights now.

[jbruney]

I should think that they would realize by now that they are wasting time and money which could be put to far better uses. This country is so full of firearms at present that added regulation would only enlarge black marketing, and cause owners to move underground to protect their firearms. The old I lost it or sold it lines shall proliferate to biblical proportions as well as complete home manufacturing from scratch.
They are fighting a battle lost over two hundred years ago....Just thinking out loud here Boss....

[cz759]

"WE are the ATF, we don't need no stinking reason":eek:

[franks71vw]

So much for the Fudds thinking Shotguns are exempt... onces the tip goes in the rest follows that is why problems need to be nip in the bud.... Next it will be the evil over and unders and coach guns...

[ctdemolay0405]

this is the way gun bans happen - congress could never get the support for laws to be enacted so federal agencies just create new policies to circumvent the law, the constitution and the powers vested in them.

[Windy]

If they cannot legislate it they regulate it...

We're so far from the original framework that I fear we will never be able to find our way back.

[Patria Povo]

OK, so if they ban them from import will they do so by arguing they are not 'legitimate' sporting firearms?

I believe some shotguns were reclassified as AOWs or DDs in the 1980s or maybe 1990s. Does anyone know if this was a retroactive ruling by the ATF or was there a grandfather clause?

Changing the rules now would be a right PITA for the thousands of S12 owners out there if they had to get an AOW stamp for their shotguns.

[Bad Monkey]

I should think that they would realize by now that they are wasting time and money which could be put to far better uses. This country is so full of firearms at present that added regulation would only enlarge black marketing, and cause owners to move underground to protect their firearms. The old I lost it or sold it lines shall proliferate to biblical proportions as well as complete home manufacturing from scratch.
They are fighting a battle lost over two hundred years ago....Just thinking out loud here Boss....

Lost 'em in a boating accident:eek:

[franks71vw]

Lost 'em in a boating accident:eek:

Sorry to hear that BM, Lost mine in a fire :(

[kagans]

Who can trust an organization that keeps going back on it's word. This is why there is so much distrust between the American people and the government. They change their minds more often than a pregnant lady in the third trimester. ignorance is not bliss, it is trouble. People that think Gun regulation and banning will stop crime are ignorant. Criminals will always be able to get guns. For example look at our neighbors in Mexico. It is illegal, as far as I know, to own a fire arm down there. Even with that ban Crime is arguably at an all time high. John Locke, who our founding fathers based a lot of their beliefs and frame work from stated that men should be allowed to preserve their life, and no one has the right to take that away from them. :1106:

[cwo4uscgret]

I don't know what happened; but somewhere a new in the box, never fired SAIGA 12 just ended up in my gun room last year...;)

[kagans]

Just remove the fire pin and tell em it's a dummy ;). Of course you still have it when you need it :fing02: .

[okie shooter]

Guys, Saigas were given a specific exemption from the awb importation bill(I dont care what you say as they are still a ak-47 gun as designed and built, and those are specifically banned from import) as they were brought in as sporting guns. Lets see a show of hands here on how many of the ones shown here are still in stock configuration, not assault shotgun config. Thus there will be no change in law, just they will lose the sporting expeption that allows them in here.

I saw this one when the ptheloria of stuff to do a conversion came out and much of it didnt requrie any mod to the gun just changeouts. THen dealers dont tell you about 922r requirements and such. I imagine they just will be imported as kits and such in the future.

[DaCapster]

Once the 20 round mags came out it was only a matter of time...........

[RicePaddyDaddy]

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

If you've already got one be proud of it.The handwriting is on the wall.

[Lalvis]

Just because they do not want to include certain types of shooting competition they can and do ban importation of certain types of shotguns! Just like always, they read the law to fit what they see as right! The law is written to include all sporting purposes.
:America:

[kagans]

That's why I think every government seat should be voted in not appointed. Otherwise you get a buddy system going where they help each other get rich while screwing the pooche. It would be like banning rifles after the civil war and only allowing muskets for "sporting reasons". Guess the question is, can you still get them without the pistol grips and "evil stuff".

[19Charlie_84]

Typical libtards thinking they know whats best for everyone.

[chili]

One problem with the term "sporting Purposes" is most people think about hunting. What about those guys who do the 3-gun matches and other comptitions? That is "for sporting purposes". Freakin' commies.

[Norton]

These points struck me

Senator Dodd stated:
Here again I would have to say that if a military weapon is used in a special
sporting event, it does not become a sporting weapon. It is a military weapon used in a
special sporting event . . . . As I said previously the language says no firearms will be
admitted into this country unless they are genuine sporting weapons.

(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors; (On a shotgun?):crazyeyes:
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.



Therefore, it is the recommendation of the working group that
shotguns with any of the characteristics or features listed above not be authorized for
importation.

[jbruney]

These folks and their ideas need to just go away. Maybe go overseas and put their plans to work there, or better still go across the southern border.

[kagans]

There's a reason why Gun protection was the SECOND amendment. These stupid liberals have people brain washed into thinking that guns are dangerous and should go away..... I love how they got heated up with the anti gun thing AFTER the supreme court over ruled the Handgun bans. I did a paper on Gun control laws and found studies that showed that it increased crime by at least 40%.

[SteelCore]

The second amendment is brilliant in that you don't need it until they try to take it away...

[Jagman]

Looking quite sporty :America:
The tax stamp is paid, and 922r compliant.
http://images110.fotki.com/v606/photos/2/139782/9498035/042_crop-vi.jpg

[okie shooter]

Ironically the one comment on sporting, was use in three gun shoots.

[nevada]

That's how the British Gov't got shotguns banned. "Not for sporting purposes".

That is one beautiful 12ga, Jagman. Almost makes me want to go into debt.


How about a new bumper sticker? Self defense IS a sporting purpose.

[DaCapster]

I think the ATf ruled 922 still applies in regard to sbr,aow's.......

[Jagman]

I have read the same thing, and edited my last post.

[HKILLER]

that is nice jag.

[7.62guy]

really nice shotty jagman.

[rudrules]

Jagman, That is one SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET Tromix Saiga Buddy!
:fing02:

Rudy:America::2pistol:

[dogsoldier]

What did the BATF finally rule? If it was posted here, I missed it.

[k98k792]

Threads merged

[DaCapster]

They have ruled nothing yet, that will come out May 1st......

The "study" came out last week or so...

[oldpaint0]

Who can trust an organization that keeps going back on it's word. This is why there is so much distrust between the American people and the government. They change their minds more often than a pregnant lady in the third trimester. ignorance is not bliss, it is trouble. People that think Gun regulation and banning will stop crime are ignorant. Criminals will always be able to get guns. For example look at our neighbors in Mexico. It is illegal, as far as I know, to own a fire arm down there. Even with that ban Crime is arguably at an all time high. John Locke, who our founding fathers based a lot of their beliefs and frame work from stated that men should be allowed to preserve their life, and no one has the right to take that away from them. :1106:

Tell it to the native americans. Trail of Tears comes to mind.

[cfish]

Typical libtards thinking they know whats best for everyone.

Charlie, I use to think that way. Now I say Typical "us" sitting on our hands and taking it! Allowing them to circumvent the constitution!

[cfish]

Jag, looks like mine, just a lot shorter. Loved that gun, but on my last shark fishing trip when jaws came over the stern and we were fighting him off, as I shot the last round from the 20 round drum he bit down on the barrel. Its swimming around somwhere off the coast of the Carolinas!

[weaponoffemdom]

in time popular belief becomes law. what is right in society, ultimately becomes the standard.

[19Charlie_84]

A few more thoughts:

Doctors are able to practice medicine because they go through ~10 years of training on the subject. Engineers build buildings because they go through ~8 years of training on the subject. Why are politicians making firearm laws with ~0 years experience on the subject? As anyone with any amount of training will tell you, the cosmetic features listed above have little to NO effect on the firearm discharging a round. A round from any other gun would impact the same.

Military weapons. The Remington 700 is a military weapon as configured in the M24 rifle. (Purely cosmetic compared to a standard ADL). This is one of the most popular and widely spread firearms on the planet. CTRL C, CTRL V for the Mossberg 500 shotgun.

The following parts are NOT NEEDED TO FIRE in an AK pattern firearm:
Stock
Handguard
Pistol grip
Magazine
Top cover
Recoil spring assembly
Muzzle device
Foreward grip
Piston
Bayonet lug
Grenade launching device

The gun would be unwieldy, awkward, mildly unsafe, fire bolt action and single shot loading. However comma it would discharge a round every time. Wear gloves. I have seen this.

*Disclaimer, I only have 14 years experience in firearms.

[weaponoffemdom]

I second that (19charlie84). Image is everything