ATF busts 700 AK47s

[RicePaddyDaddy]

http://www.kpho.com/news/26611171/detail.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d3f5c395b20efe6%2C0

This is screwing all of us.

[DaCapster]

Break the law, do the time.......

[franks71vw]

my question is this to buy 700 ak's holy crap that takes time or several people buying multiples... as a dealer, cant they just refuse the person/sale specially in those areas with out the R card being used...

[spectre]

so when do you think they will realize that criminals dont care about the laws that keep us from owning these "hi powered" "assault" weapons.

[Arkane]

I trust the ATF to police arms sales to the point I trust the IRS to do my taxes. Remember the Airsoft debacle? Nowadays anything the ATF releases is automatically suspect in my book.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/101213-gun-dealer-atf-approved-sales-to-mexican-gun-runners

[yellowhand]

@ 350.00 a throw, or 350.00 times 700 units that comes to ??? without a calculator that's a whole lot of money!!!
This reminds me of the Mafia bust last week and their defense lawyer said simply, don't worry about all of the charges, wait until folks are placed onto the witness stand and then watch who actually goes to jail and who walks out of court, charges are one thing, and court convictions are another, once the "truth" comes out about what really happened.
Agree though, it's a bad headline for all of us into firearms...

[okie shooter]

Guys, to a money making orgnization like drug cartels, money is not a object. Pablo Escban offered to pay off the national debt of Columbia if they let him off. Thus the cost of 700 aks at four hundred is only 280000 which is chump change to operations makeing millions a day.

[bladeworks123]

I'm like Arkane, I'm a little suspect sometimes at anything that comes from them or the US Attorney right now. If it weren't for the involvement of the local AZ LE too, I would be real skeptical. On the issue of knowingly selling that many rifles to one buyer,,,, there isn't a reasonable minded person in the room here that wouldn't raise an eybrow at that one, be suspect of what was going on, and act on the side of caution instead of just blatantly selling that many rifles to one person... Greed may have cost this dealer many more sales in the long run than it gained him, and it certainly put a muddy boot print on the back of all legitmate, law abiding gun enthusiasts and owners.

[RicePaddyDaddy]

There were 20 buyers,17 are under arrest.Still don't trust the weapon count.

[Arkane]

Exactly. The ATF is conducting it's wild west sting operation along the border but has yet to account for a lot of the weapons sold that they pushed sales through on to try and trace. There's a lot of debate about the BP agent that was shot recently having been killed by one of those weapons - googling project gunwalker will give you some insight.

One of my cousins in an ATF&E field agent - and turned me onto this site: http://www.cleanupatf.org/ She confirms a lot of what I've seen posted there. Scary stuff. Scary indeed.

[okie shooter]

More details, and links to other articles, with more specifics, I doubt with this coverage they are making things up. The forms are there I imagine.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41257218/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/



In one instance, according to the indictment, an alleged gun trafficker named Manuel Fabian Celis-Acosta called the Lone Wolf gun store on Dec. 8, 2009, and asked how many AK-47s the store had in stock. Forty five minutes later, an alleged straw buyer and co-conspirator showed up at the store and bought 20 AK-47s, which he allegedly transported to an auto auction business in Phoenix and and then loaded into other vehicles.


Thus the number does not suprise me as long as they have been looking at it. They may not have seised 700 firearms, but I imagine what they have done is tracked them to prove they are straw purchaces. Look at the links in the articles, and then form a opnion. This has been in the news for a while, and there is a older thread here on the board, disussing the issue being a problem in the south near the border.

We may not like this subject, but straw purchaces are illegal, thus give the buyers and transferers the extent of the law IMHO. Its folks like this that skirt the law who push the legalities to force others to think all gun buyers are the same thus the only way to regulate will be more laws. This is simular to how they busted the Meth labs here by restricting the buyers of pseudophedrine. I imagine it will work, but the layers of buyers will get deeper. Ironically if these guns were hitting the streets here, we would all be up in arms but since the killing is a ways away, we are far less sensitive to it.

[kagans]

Glad they caught those Dbags! Sadly, If some one can legally buy a firearm, dealers cannot deny them that right. I remember hearing something about the dealer that sold the Tucson guy the firearm stating that he didn't feel comfortable with it, but had to according to the laws. But if I was a dealer I would red flag some one that was buying that many fire arms. Hopefully that is how they caught the guys! :America:

[Planning]

Glad they caught those Dbags! Sadly, If some one can legally buy a firearm, dealers cannot deny them that right. I remember hearing something about the dealer that sold the Tucson guy the firearm stating that he didn't feel comfortable with it, but had to according to the laws. But if I was a dealer I would red flag some one that was buying that many fire arms. Hopefully that is how they caught the guys! :America:

that is total BS. a FFL dealer does not have to sell to anyone. it is in the ATF regs. the dealer has the last say on a sale.

over the years i stopped the sale on a few guns when i didn't feel something was right. even after doing the background check.

it is one of the places in this country a business can refuse to sell to someone and it is legal.

ron

[0002s]

Why do Mexican Drug Cartels, that make billions of dollars, need to purchase over priced semi automatic US firearms when they can easily purchase fully auto firearms from anywhere in the 3rd world for pennies on the peso? They could trade their product for fully auto firearms.

We should just sell them all the Century AK's we can find and then we see a huge drop in gun related violence...........:thelook:

I don't doubt that there are straw man purchases going into Mexico. The average Juan can't get them. I do doubt it's as big of a problem as is being stated, as well as, it's not going to the large criminal gangs.

[chili]

I think this time the news is almost telling the truth. Wouldn't surprise me if gov't tried some form of federal gun rationing across the country and not just in the border states.

[Global Gunsmithing]

that is total BS. a FFL dealer does not have to sell to anyone. it is in the ATF regs. the dealer has the last say on a sale.

over the years i stopped the sale on a few guns when i didn't feel something was right. even after doing the background check.

it is one of the places in this country a business can refuse to sell to someone and it is legal.

ron

+1

[jdowney]

Bottom line:
1. Cash sales are not illegal
2. Multiple purchases are not illegal
3. Straw purchases are illegal
4. According to Carter's Country's lawyer, they repeatedly alerted BATF to suspect purchases and were advised to go through with the sales.

This article is little more than the BATF finally doing their damned job.... and enforcing laws they already have at their disposal. Is a straw purchase a felony? If convicted can that straw purchaser never buy a gun again?

I don't think an ffl in his right mind should complete a suspect sale, regardless of what the BATF tells him.

[okie shooter]

Why do Mexican Drug Cartels, that make billions of dollars, need to purchase over priced semi automatic US firearms when they can easily purchase fully auto firearms from anywhere in the 3rd world for pennies on the peso? They could trade their product for fully auto firearms.

The reason they cannot, is the drugs move overland, easier to import and transport thru mexico, Heck have you ever read the cost of the tunnels they build that are in the millions of dollars.

On selling their stuff or tradeing it for guns, why? The drugs have the cash value here not in other parts of the 3rd world. Money makes the world go around. It drives the market, thus why try to trade drugs for money, if the poor country does not have the developed market for it. Thus its sold in the US, where there is money, users and a market. Heck even the cash is already in the US where it was raised, thus giving them a way to exchange cash for goods without the watch of the officals over the money.

The border is pretty porous for gun trafictting I imagine, costs of buying in the 3rd world auto guns and bringing them in I imagine is higher than buying in the US and importing them illegally, the lord of war shows that there are costs of bringing in weapons, and the numbers overshadow the numbers of firearms we are talking aobut here, a small army, but abet a very small one. Not financeing a full scale civil war with divisions of men.

[jdowney]

Why do Mexican Drug Cartels, that make billions of dollars, need to purchase over priced semi automatic US firearms when they can easily purchase fully auto firearms from anywhere in the 3rd world for pennies on the peso?

I've wondered myself about this now and then, and I think Okie's got it about right. In the current state of things, it's just cheaper and easier to get them here where they already have supply routes going back and forth and plenty of cash on this side of the border.

Cut off the supply here, and they will without a doubt find other supplies elsewhere in the world. Guns are not especially difficult to make in any moderately industrial nation, and bribery is universally applicable. Ban the weapons here and they'll get them from somewhere else, but our rights will be cut down a little more.

[kagans]

that is total BS. a FFL dealer does not have to sell to anyone. it is in the ATF regs. the dealer has the last say on a sale.

over the years i stopped the sale on a few guns when i didn't feel something was right. even after doing the background check.

it is one of the places in this country a business can refuse to sell to someone and it is legal.

ron

Ah, okay miss informed. Just heard that thing about the Tucson incident. Glad you guys can do that, it was a little scary, thinking you had to sale to anyone as long as they passed background tests.

[cwo4uscgret]

Without going too deep into the last discussion we had about guns gone wild - south of the border - although I really did appreciate all the support I got when I was attacked...

In my humble and educated opinion the drug cartels of Mexico have used quite a few methods of acquiring firearms.

1. Straw Purchases from the US and smuggling them across the border. It happens; there have been numerous southbound vehicles caught before crossing the border and finding guns hidden in their vehicles.

On the matter of straw purchases - If I were an FFL Dealer I think I would exercise my legal right and would refuse to sell 20 WASR AKs to one person unless I really knew him and he had a very legitimate reason to buy them. Here in Michigan as a private seller (at a gun show for example) even if the potential buyer has a purchase permit, or a CPL (concealed pistol permit) I can still refuse to sell him a handgun; simply by saying no.

2. I suspect that in addition to buying/smuggling the guns from the US, that the cartels are also acquiring them the "old fashioned" way; either by stealing them from the military and law enforcement in Mexico, or as did the partisans did during WWII - kill your enemy (in this case their enemy are the good guys) and take their gun.

Although during my recent visits to Mexico City and Acapulco in the last 4 years I noticed that the Mexican Army is well equipped, with new equipment, and is a professional organization - I suspect that just like other countries there are elements in the military and law enforcement who for whatever reasons betray their country. Usually for money, sex, drugs, or a combination of some or all of the above...

[cfish]

Have to agree with that. The dealers need to see the light of day o this and not place the entire industry at risk. And those who here about this stuff need to speak up or our hobbie and more important, our rights could be taken from us.

[RicePaddyDaddy]

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/379/458/Germany_Halts_HK_Exports_to_Mexico.html

How about that.Germany stops guns to Mexico,I wonder who else is importing them in but that's ok we'll take the blame anyway.

[jdowney]

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/379/458/Germany_Halts_HK_Exports_to_Mexico.html

How about that.Germany stops guns to Mexico,I wonder who else is importing them in but that's ok we'll take the blame anyway.

That's a bit different - German gov is banning exports to the Mexican gov over alleged human rights violations in certain Mexican states on the part of various Mexican gov. entities.

This article has a bit more info, and it almost sounds as if the German gov is mistaking the Mexican made FX-05 for the G36, as they apparently look similar enough for HK to have looked into suing for patent infringement or whatever. Turns out the guts are different though.
http://www.greenvilledragnet.com/germany-halts-hk-exports-to-mexico/

I'm sure the drug dealers can get weapons on the international black market if they want to - where ever all the African rebels and warlords get them.

[Old Grump]

Ban the ATF, let the police do police work if there are laws being broken.

[bladeworks123]

Make no mistake about it, the cartels will get the guns they want the easiest and cheapest way possible. The ATF "Drying up" these suppliers means absolutely nothing. CWO is absolutely correct, this is not the only method by which the cartels obtain weapons. It is, however, a very convienient story for those opposing RTKABA, and that's why it is "big news" 700 weapons to these tirds is like five or six to you and me. Also, I'm sure we won't hear a count on how many guns they have stolen in burglaries all along the border on the US side, or how many US citizens were victimized by these jack wads. And you can bet that not all of these were paid for with cash by the cartels. I would bet half of my next paycheck that these "straw purchasers" were probably doing a little trading up as profit margin.

[RandyCOG3]

It may simply be a matter of no single source being able to fully supply their needs in either the short or long term.


WHY, though, now that BATFE has thorough records and computers to keep track of them with, should it be a surprise (maybe even to themselves) that they are able to detect and stop this sort of activity? I realize that they don't have records of people selling to drug cartels, but, come on, sometimes law-enforcement is blessed with what they call "a clue", and when it looks like a straw purchase is going on in/near border states, maybe they should look into it?

RandyCOG3

[Bad Monkey]

I really don't think that drug cartels are getting a majority of their guns in the U.S. Are they getting some yup, but they are also getting Ford and Chevy trucks to transport everything also.

Ever notice that when Victor Bout was arrested and extradited to the U.S. on weapon smuggling charges, the media kinda overlooked all the military grade stuff he was selling drug cartels, among others. Note we are talking RPG's full auto's light and heavy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11464306

I'm sure he's not the only one out there doing this type of smuggling. Thats not even bring Central and South America into it. Where they also are engage in human trafficking, thus have smuggling lines also set up.

[jdowney]

Toyota's are very popular in Mexico too, though maybe not with the high-flying, drug lord type. I see them headed down that way, usually towing another, almost every week. Sometimes you even see a medium box truck like an Isuzu NPR, towing a Toyota pickup with a second pickup stuffed in the box of the heavier truck. :D:D:D

[okie shooter]

Make no mistake about it, the cartels will get the guns they want the easiest and cheapest way possible. The ATF "Drying up" these suppliers means absolutely nothing. I wont argue with your logic on that thought, it just will take the responsablity off of the evil US of A when they discuss international politics. Thus atleast we can tell the Mexican gov to deal with what is a internal problem, abet with the US supplying the money to bad guys where, as we buy the drugs. The problem is as it is in much of the world, and even in some us inner cities, it dont take much money to buy off and win over the people, if they have nothing to lose by working for the cartels. Kinda like the conversation of paying off the folks rioting in the movie oceans thirteen, at the dice factory, thirty five thousand bought off the employees, thus little cash if you are a cash generating unit.

[jdowney]

Thus atleast we can tell the Mexican gov to deal with what is a internal problem, abet with the US supplying the money to bad guys where, as we buy the drugs.

If we had any political or diplomatic sack we would tell them that anyway. I see no reason our citizens should forfeit any of their rights simply because the BATF is too incompetent or lazy to enforce existing laws and diplomats are too incompetent or lazy to tell our "allies" to wake up and see reality for what it is.

They know very well it is an internal problem, they just don't wish to believe it. Our soft gloved treatment just allows them to keep believing in their own delusions and keep taking the cartel's damned money.

Taking an apologist attitude is just going to cost us, as it has for the last 43 years when it comes to gun control. Every time we give a little we lose a lot, every time we stand firm, they blink. Lesson learned - stand firm :thumbup:

[cwo4uscgret]

it dont take much money to buy off and win over the people

Usually with the drug cartel in MX it is work for or with us....or die. The drug cartel in Mexico is a grave issue for the US; there are documented cases where the cartel is working with mideastern terrorists trying to gain access to the US over the SW Border.

We can not take their actions lightly.

[kagans]

Usually with the drug cartel in MX it is work for or with us....or die. The drug cartel in Mexico is a grave issue for the US; there are documented cases where the cartel is working with mideastern terrorists trying to gain access to the US over the SW Border.

We can not take their actions lightly.

+1 boarders mean nothing to them. They already come over and kidnap a few people who tried to speak out against them. I remember watching an episode of Boarder Wars, where this boarder patrol person was standing at the bank of the Rio Grande watching some Mexican Drug cartels fighting it out with heavy machine guns and such. All he had was a standard issue M4. Some gun hating liberal would say that is why we should have more gun control, but they forget that drug cartels do not follow the laws.

[Sampson1986]

On the matter of straw purchases - If I were an FFL Dealer I think I would exercise my legal right and would refuse to sell 20 WASR AKs to one person unless I really knew him and he had a very legitimate reason to buy them.

What is a "very legitimate reason" for buying multiple firearms in your opinion?
Pray tell.

The problem I have with dealers having the "right" to refuse a firearm to someone is that it can be abused just like anything else. When I was about 17, I was in the Scheel's store in Great Falls, Montana (pop. ~60,000) browsing the gun selection. A young black man was buying a handgun and was having a rather rough time with the clerk. The clerk was just being an ***hole. To this day, I don't know if that man got his handgun or not. The only thing out of the ordinary was that the purchaser was black. Had he been white, the clerk wouldn't have given him a rough time. Another time, I experienced something similar. Some jackass was manning the gun counter while I was buying a gun. He copied my license (something no other dealer has ever done to me), made me fill out two 4473's (claiming I made some mistake on the first one), and took almost an hour and a half to process the transaction. Why did he do such a thing? Because I was a 19 year old punk with a ponytail. I know damn well he would have refused to sell me a firearm if he could have.

If a dealer refuses to sell a firearm to somebody, I guess that's the way it goes - but I think the dealer better have an airtight excuse for refusing the sale. In my opinion, a guy buying five CETME receivers is no different from the guy buying a hunting rifle.

Sorry for the diatribe, gentlemen.

[milsurprifleman]

I don't understand why they would go through all of the trouble of comming up here for $350 plus semi auto AKs when they can get $25 fully auto AKs from their own country. I think the antis are funding this to help damn the american gun owners and dealers. it just doesn't make sense.

[Sampson1986]

I don't understand why they would go through all of the trouble of comming up here for $350 plus semi auto AKs when they can get $25 fully auto AKs from their own country. I think the antis are funding this to help damn the american gun owners and dealers. it just doesn't make sense.

+1

Or maybe it's the ATF trying to justify their budget? Who knows?

[milsurprifleman]

+1

Or maybe it's the ATF trying to justify their budget? Who knows? Yeah, its been a while since they earnerd their keep.

[okie shooter]

I don't understand why they would go through all of the trouble of comming up here for $350 plus semi auto AKs when they can get $25 fully auto AKs from their own country. I think the antis are funding this to help damn the american gun owners and dealers. it just doesn't make sense.
This aint west africa, Mexico has not been flooded with thrid world guns after the downfall of the USSR and the Mexicans do try to keep firearms out of the country and do have some controls on what they allow the civilians to own. I think since they have huge stack of cash here some times its easier to get guns here. I imagine the border is easier to get guns across, especally if you build tunnels to bring in people and goods, why not turn it around and bring guns back.

[cwo4uscgret]

In this case, money is not an issue; here is a seizure from a Mexico City home of more then $200,000,000.00 that's right, Two Hundred Million plus...

http://geckoandfly.geckoandfly.netdna-cdn.com./wp-content/uploads/2007/03/cash_seizure_drugs_busted.jpg

[milsurprifleman]

In this case, money is not an issue; here is a seizure from a Mexico City home of more then $200,000,000.00 that's right, Two Hundred Million plus...

http://geckoandfly.geckoandfly.netdna-cdn.com./wp-content/uploads/2007/03/cash_seizure_drugs_busted.jpg

no its not, that my yearly ammo funds lol. geez, thats a lot of de niro

[kagans]

In this case, money is not an issue; here is a seizure from a Mexico City home of more then $200,000,000.00 that's right, Two Hundred Million plus...

http://geckoandfly.geckoandfly.netdna-cdn.com./wp-content/uploads/2007/03/cash_seizure_drugs_busted.jpg

They should take that money and put it towards paying for the war against the cartels!

[Arkane]

This aint west africa, Mexico has not been flooded with thrid world guns after the downfall of the USSR and the Mexicans do try to keep firearms out of the country and do have some controls on what they allow the civilians to own. I think since they have huge stack of cash here some times its easier to get guns here. I imagine the border is easier to get guns across, especally if you build tunnels to bring in people and goods, why not turn it around and bring guns back.

I'll argue that. Southern Mexico's border is wide open and out of control even more than ours despite the federals and State not being hamstrung by civil liberties organizations like ours are. Last year while in Chiapas I was offered the opportunity to go into a backalley gun bazaar that rivaled what I've seen in Pakistan. One shop had US assistance govt marked M16A1s that still had some of the paint stamp on them.

Mexico has little to no control over what enters or exits it's borders (OTW where do all those RPGs come from?). As far as civilian ownership, well yeah, it's as restrictive as it gets. But Mexico should be an example of how anti-rights laws just don't work. Criminals scoff @ the law in Mexico just like they do here.

[cfish]

Deal with the drug use on our side of the border and the issue will resolve itself. That will take care of Mexico and the cartels. Now dealing with the antis here on our soil is an even bigger dilemma.

[Arkane]

Deal with the drug use on our side of the border and the issue will resolve itself. That will take care of Mexico and the cartels. Now dealing with the antis here on our soil is an even bigger dilemma.

Total truth. If you go after the source of funding (drugs and drug money) that will help choke the cartels more than trying to kill their supposed source of weapons. If they can't get weapons from one source they will go to another, and drugs and the money to fund their business will continue to flow across the border.

The biggest problem is the liberal progressives (especially the Dem reps from the larger urban centers like SJL, Al Green, and the others) - wanting to decriminalize a lot of drug offenses is only fueling the problem. And I've heard the argument that if we make it legal and tax it here then they won't have a customer - B/S. remember when cigarette taxes kicked in and the price went through the roof? People went elsewhere to get them cheaper. What makes anyone think that the same thing wouldn't happen?

[jdowney]

The biggest problem is the liberal progressives (especially the Dem reps from the larger urban centers like SJL, Al Green, and the others) - wanting to decriminalize a lot of drug offenses is only fueling the problem. And I've heard the argument that if we make it legal and tax it here then they won't have a customer - B/S. remember when cigarette taxes kicked in and the price went through the roof? People went elsewhere to get them cheaper. What makes anyone think that the same thing wouldn't happen?

I've heard this argument go either way. As far as I'm concerned there's simply not enough experience/information on either side of it to make a truly realistic prediction, so both sides use it.

I think legalization across the board would cripple the cartels, especially if it were done suddenly - prices would drop so rapidly there would be little point in further smuggling until they stabilized. They could control prices to some degree by limiting supply, but they would not be able to keep that control for long and the criminal tactics they know so well would not work for long in an open and legal market.

The obvious question is whether the social costs of easy availability and likely increased usage would be worth negating the current social costs of a huge and violent criminal infrastructure as it exists now on both sides of the border. The simplistic analogy is that of 1920's prohibition, but given that the substances involved are so much more dangerous than alcohol (except pot, I'd say), such a simple comparison is really very naive.

I do not know the answer to that one, and frankly I doubt the motivations of anyone who does claim to have all the answers here.

[Bad Monkey]

I'll argue that. Southern Mexico's border is wide open and out of control even more than ours despite the federals and State not being hamstrung by civil liberties organizations like ours are. Last year while in Chiapas I was offered the opportunity to go into a backalley gun bazaar that rivaled what I've seen in Pakistan. One shop had US assistance govt marked M16A1s that still had some of the paint stamp on them.

Mexico has little to no control over what enters or exits it's borders (OTW where do all those RPGs come from?). As far as civilian ownership, well yeah, it's as restrictive as it gets. But Mexico should be an example of how anti-rights laws just don't work. Criminals scoff @ the law in Mexico just like they do here.

I'd have to agree with you. My understanding is you can go to South America and buy full auto AK's for about $150 US dollars. That could be why Mexico sends so few guns to the ATF to trace. Why trace gun with South American or Eastern Euorpe marks with no marks from the USA.

[cwo4uscgret]

CFish - as long as people are willing to put the drugs in their bodys it will be a problem. Getting people to stop using drugs is a monumental task. It took me 21 years of hard drinking to finally stop...19 years ago.

[cfish]

CFish - as long as people are willing to put the drugs in their bodys it will be a problem. Getting people to stop using drugs is a monumental task. It took me 21 years of hard drinking to finally stop...19 years ago.



I'm well aware of the ravages of drugs. Watched a close family member all but destroy his entire family and still struggles to this day. I am a rabid anti drug person but realistic all the same. The problem will continue to grow and the crime will grow as well. Short of declaring all out war on the problem, the only logistical solution is to leaglize it. Not saying that I'm for it. Just having looked closely at the problem since I was a kid, nothing has slowed down the pace of drug use in America, it has continued to grow. Who knows really what the answer is. Kind of like letting the genie out of the bottle, you don't know if good or evil will prevail!!

[mga4848]

You don't have to be for drugs to realize that the only way to control them is to legalize them. Tax the hell out of them and you have solved a whole multitude of problems from overcrowded prisons to the budget woes

[Otis61]

I'm well aware of the ravages of drugs. Watched a close family member all but destroy his entire family and still struggles to this day. I am a rabid anti drug person but realistic all the same. The problem will continue to grow and the crime will grow as well. Short of declaring all out war on the problem, the only logistical solution is to leaglize it. Not saying that I'm for it. Just having looked closely at the problem since I was a kid, nothing has slowed down the pace of drug use in America, it has continued to grow. Who knows really what the answer is. Kind of like letting the genie out of the bottle, you don't know if good or evil will prevail!!

I think something along these lines would be best too. A lot of times for people with substance abuse problems the problem has to run its course. The best, and quikest way would be to legalize it, then tax it to fund all of the other supporting programs that would have to be implimented with this. But the cartels would be out.

[Arkane]

You don't have to be for drugs to realize that the only way to control them is to legalize them. Tax the hell out of them and you have solved a whole multitude of problems from overcrowded prisons to the budget woes

Great idea, but what will happen? Folks will do exactly as I stated in my earlier post and get them from illicit sources to avoid the high prices (same thing that happened with cigarettes).

[jdowney]

Great idea, but what will happen? Folks will do exactly as I stated in my earlier post and get them from illicit sources to avoid the high prices (same thing that happened with cigarettes).

Yeah, maybe some. But I don't see any huge, well armed, and exceedingly violent cigarette cartels making fortunes on the desire to save a couple bucks a pack. Black market cigs are no doubt a problem where organized crime is involved, but it pales by comparison to the drug cartel problems that are spilling over into the US.

[Grasshopper]

Deal with the drug use on our side of the border and the issue will resolve itself. That will take care of Mexico and the cartels. Now dealing with the antis here on our soil is an even bigger dilemma.

Man, your rite on this, but you forgot to tell us that the antis are the drug users in this country!:icon_biggrin:
I have never herd of an NRA Dad snorting coke at a Gratefull Dead concert or huffing a joint at a Jimmy Buffet concert, frikken parrott heads....:wink:

[jdowney]

I have never herd of an NRA Dad snorting coke at a Gratefull Dead concert or huffing a joint at a Jimmy Buffet concert, frikken parrott heads....:wink:

Given that pot tends to make people stupid and dulls their emotions, I would love to get the gun grabbers all the legal pot they want. People tend not to pay much attention to statements that begin with "Uh.... like, dude.... see, guns are sooooo bogus...." :D:D

[Arkane]

Given that pot tends to make people stupid and dulls their emotions, I would love to get the gun grabbers all the legal pot they want. People tend not to pay much attention to statements that begin with "Uh.... like, dude.... see, guns are sooooo bogus...." :D:D

I pictured Spicolli standing there spouting that off...ROFL

[Arkane]

Yeah, maybe some. But I don't see any huge, well armed, and exceedingly violent cigarette cartels making fortunes on the desire to save a couple bucks a pack. Black market cigs are no doubt a problem where organized crime is involved, but it pales by comparison to the drug cartel problems that are spilling over into the US.

True, and I was using that as an analogy. The "cigarette cartels" no doubt would be the little armed gangs we have running the streets nowadays. Possibly easier to handle but still substituting one issue for another.

[okie shooter]

Yeah, maybe some. But I don't see any huge, well armed, and exceedingly violent cigarette cartels making fortunes on the desire to save a couple bucks a pack. Black market cigs are no doubt a problem where organized crime is involved, but it pales by comparison to the drug cartel problems that are spilling over into the US.They are called the Mafia, but some say they dont exist. But the Mob among others do move untaxed cigs, forging the stamps and paper work, then moving them from low tax states to high tax states. I just think its a little more controled as the gangs here have divied up terratory and done better jobs on not killing everyone lately, the gangs in mexico are like ours were here in the twenties and thirties dealing with liquor. Two to three bucks a pack by moving packs from NC to NY, think what a truckload would pay doing that.

If you dont think the mafia aint violent, hmmmm just wonder if I am reading the wrong things. The only problem is that orgnized crime is into many things in their traditional areas. It aint just fiction, about waste mannagement, or cement sales or other legit busnesses that they are into controling and skimming the profits.

[jdowney]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that smuggling cigs by organized crime is not a problem, and I'm not saying the mob doesn't exist.

I am observing that the mob in the US is mostly whacking each other. They do not seem to target honest cops, DA's, and politicians in order to intimidate. They do not seem to leave masses of headless corpses around in order to intimidate. Surely we don't believe that this level of violence is going to stay an exclusively Mexican problem for much longer? A mere 15 years ago I thought nothing of going to work in rural areas of Mexico, often in areas where drugs were grown, and honestly I was more worried about the hassles with the army and police than drug growers. Now I don't think I'd go to any part of Mexico for any reason.

The mob was close to this violent in the 1920's, solely because with prohibition came profit. The profits were so huge that they were worth going to extreme lengths to protect. The profits on illegal cigarettes are no where near so huge, we don't see $200 million seizures or terroristic violence in most of the mob's rackets.

I don't claim that legalization will solve the drug problems, neither do I claim that the price of legalization would be worth paying as a society. I do claim that on our current path this problem will only get worse in this country.

[slackjaw]

Man, your rite on this, but you forgot to tell us that the antis are the drug users in this country!:icon_biggrin:
I have never herd of an NRA Dad snorting coke at a Gratefull Dead concert or huffing a joint at a Jimmy Buffet concert, frikken parrott heads....:wink: i know drug users who are for gun ownership and don't like liberals or oba mao

[okie shooter]

The mob was close to this violent in the 1920's, solely because with prohibition came profit. The profits were so huge that they were worth going to extreme lengths to protect. The profits on illegal cigarettes are no where near so huge, we don't see $200 million seizures or terroristic violence in most of the mob's rackets.

I was comparing the mexican gangs of today just to that, but the profits are just as big or bigger for US orgnized crime I imagine, just far more difuse and spread out, as the maturity of the orgnization has spawned growth of the orgnization. Still 4.05 dollars per pack x 10 packs per carton x 10000 cartons= over 400,000, and I imagine a truck holds more than 10000 cartons. Thus the tax laws are the only thing broken by buying cigs in VA and trucking them to NY after putting phoney tax stamps or what ever way you want to deal with it.

I imagine there has always been a huge underworld current in this lucritive busness as it is better profits compared to risk than a lot of smuggleing activities.

I imagine whats left of the mobs in mexico will eventualy mature and quit killing each other and the leo, and spread the money around. But alas that didnt do the big comumbian any good when he offered to pay off the entire nation.

[RandyCOG3]

I pictured Spicolli standing there spouting that off...ROFL


I've always suspected that Mr. Hand was packin' heat...I would have been.

RandyCOG3

[RandyCOG3]

Well, drat. A judge just threw out Obamacare, since it's Unconstitutional.
Other than that, you could have just gone to your Dr. and asked for whatever drugs and cigarettes and rotgut whisky (or whiskey) that you wanted...since the sooner you die, the less "end of life" money they have to spend keeping you alive. Remember, these are the same folks that are telling women younger than X to stop the self-exams for breast lumps, and stop with the routine mammograms, that stuff costs money, ya know. B.O. even suggested that maybe giving Granny a pill would be more cost-effective than a hip replacement.

Sorry for the thread hijack... I'm trying to control myself. Maybe I need a generic pill of some sort.

RandyCOG3

[jdowney]

Still 4.05 dollars per pack x 10 packs per carton x 10000 cartons= over 400,000, and I imagine a truck holds more than 10000 cartons. Thus the tax laws are the only thing broken by buying cigs in VA and trucking them to NY after putting phoney tax stamps or what ever way you want to deal with it.

Are you actually telling me you think they're buying retail in one state and trucking to another with higher taxes? Probably couldn't make more than $1/pack doing that, and it would have to be divided amongst all the various crooks involved. More likely would be buying untaxed from manufacturers, but you'd likely have to pay them more than they get on legal cigs to make the risk worth it.

I just don't see this as the huge cash cow for the mafia that you seem to think it is. More likely they're involved in stealing shipments of cigarettes and forging the stamp, then selling those. But that's bound to be small time stuff or else the manufacturers would wise up and take measures to protect their shipments. Of course we don't have a whole lot of Mafia presence out here with the cows, so what do I know? :D

From everything I've read (which is not much :D) the concern about lost revenue from "cigarette smuggling" is for the most part individuals going across state lines or even down to Mexico to buy their smokes for the coming month or two.


I imagine whats left of the mobs in mexico will eventualy mature and quit killing each other and the leo, and spread the money around. But alas that didnt do the big comumbian any good when he offered to pay off the entire nation.

Highly doubtful. However we have no basis for comparison. Based on human behavior in general though, I would expect the violence to escalate to the point at which either the Mexican government or the US government take practical steps to change the scenario. "Declaring war" on drug smuggling is not a practical step in my view, just another way to spend tons of money to no useful end.

[RicePaddyDaddy]

I was comparing the mexican gangs of today just to that, but the profits are just as big or bigger for US orgnized crime I imagine, just far more difuse and spread out, as the maturity of the orgnization has spawned growth of the orgnization. Still 4.05 dollars per pack x 10 packs per carton x 10000 cartons= over 400,000, and I imagine a truck holds more than 10000 cartons. Thus the tax laws are the only thing broken by buying cigs in VA and trucking them to NY after putting phoney tax stamps or what ever way you want to deal with it.

I imagine there has always been a huge underworld current in this lucritive busness as it is better profits compared to risk than a lot of smuggleing activities.

I imagine whats left of the mobs in mexico will eventualy mature and quit killing each other and the leo, and spread the money around. But alas that didnt do the big comumbian any good when he offered to pay off the entire nation.

A high cube 53ft trailer holds at least 800 cases of cigs.
10 packs = 1 ctn
20 ctns to a case x 800 plus = 600,000 to 850,000 bucks depending on brand and how full the trailer is loaded.Most trucking companys have quit hauling solid loads of cigs because of theft and now haul only partial loads with FAK,freight of all kinds,loaded between the cigs and the back door.Can you tell I was in trucking ?

[Sampson1986]

"Declaring war" on drug smuggling is not a practical step in my view, just another way to spend tons of money to no useful end.

We already have an ongoing "War on Drugs" - and it's been an epic failure.

It's like my mom always said: "We don't have a gun problem. We don't have a drug problem. We have a people problem." We live in an imperfect world. No law is going to stop anybody from being a creep.

[RandyCOG3]

We already have an ongoing "War on Drugs" - and it's been an epic failure.

It's like my mom always said: "We don't have a gun problem. We don't have a drug problem. We have a people problem." We live in an imperfect world. No law is going to stop anybody from being a creep.

That's the irony. I like women, and, very attractive women, and yet I feel compelled to obey the law. Attractive women tend to attract men with megabucks related to certain opiates and other vegetative substances, and, the Florida Suncoast's geography doesn't exactly discourage such activity.

I don't have any megabucks....go figure.

RandyCOG3

[cfish]

Man, your rite on this, but you forgot to tell us that the antis are the drug users in this country!:icon_biggrin:
I have never herd of an NRA Dad snorting coke at a Gratefull Dead concert or huffing a joint at a Jimmy Buffet concert, frikken parrott heads....:wink:


Hey not all us parrot heads are dopers:wink:

[cfish]

Having grown up in miami in the 60's and 70's I saw first hand the devistation that drugs bring to the streets. Lost friends to overdose, lost friends thru being involved in the drug trade. Hell I have a copy of a video the coast guard took of my cousin, a FL marine patrol running down drug smugglers off of Mami and they were tossing cocaine into the water and shooting at him with uzis at the same time. The coast guard was caught it all on tape. HE had a 357 mag and an 870. It wasn't till the CG layed down a few bursts fro the M60 they had on board.
All I'm saying is this war has been going on for so long. I wonder how many billions and billions of money has been spent to curtail the drug trade. I think a lot of the mystique of drugs would lose a lot of focus from younger kids if it was legalized on a limited basis. Lets face it with all the money spent to fight this war, we catch what, 10-20% of what makes its way here. Drugs are a vile and disgusting fact of life. If we bury our heads any longer we may just get shot in the ass.

[slim]

Given that pot tends to make people stupid and dulls their emotions, I would love to get the gun grabbers all the legal pot they want. People tend not to pay much attention to statements that begin with "Uh.... like, dude.... see, guns are sooooo bogus...." :D:D

:jumping:

OMG that was funny

I felt like an idiot for years thinking the WOD was bull and causing more mayhem than it prevented and it wasn`t because I was a fan of drugs either....lost too many freinds to jail and the grave for me to want to be a part of THAT.

it`s nice to finally see so many other intelligent thinkers (wether real or just on the internet...lol) here who feel the same way...don`t feel like such an idiot now.

Like I`ve stated before, I would absolutely die if drugs took my kids but lord knows that drugs can kill them or ruin their lives if they are legal or not...ask any addict or parent of an OD`ed child.

Why waste the money and resources?

BTW.....those straw buyers need prosecuted for jeopardizing everyone`s rights...what little are left

[okie shooter]

ON the thought of pot, remember what happened in california, they voted on it and it lost, I guess all of the users just forgot to vote and got high celebrateing the fact that they could vote for legal pot.

To paraphrase Afroman, " I was gonna vote, but I got high"

[jdowney]

ON the thought of pot, remember what happened in california, they voted on it and it lost, I guess all of the users just forgot to vote and got high.

Entirely possible :D

There are 15 states with medical marijuana laws, but the one outright legalization push so far failed. One thing that tells me is that regardless of what individuals (including non-users) may think, society as a whole is not ready to let the genie out yet. :D

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I would support across the board legalization either, the short term effect could very well be a big spike in hard drug use, we just don't know. As I said, I don't have the answer to that one :D

[Bad Monkey]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I would support across the board legalization either, the short term effect could very well be a big spike in hard drug use, we just don't know. As I said, I don't have the answer to that one :D

You kinda sit were I do on this issue. I don't think the war on drugs in Constitutional, after all it did take the 18th amendment for prohibition. And the Constitution wasn't amended for prohibition of drugs.

That said, the first funeral I ever went to was when I was 12. A friend of mine since the 1st grade died from an overdose. Scared me enough to never try an drugs. My youngest sister has been fighting addiction for about ten years now also. She just got her 4th DUI. No law will stop anyone from doing drugs or anything else. This war on drugs hasn't made drugs hard to get. Just means you do time when you get caught.

Now I do support state laws banning drugs, just like dry counties in the south. States rights. But this whole war on drugs seems like big waste on taxpayer money.

On a side note, if drugs are legalized. Would the DEA become more like the ATF and try to make or create and new reason to keep funding and their jobs?

[Planning]

Hey not all us parrot heads are dopers:wink:

HEY! i didn't know there was another parrot head among us here.:icon_biggrin:

ron

[cfish]

Oh ya. Grew up in the Keys in the 60's and 70's hard not to be.

[Lalvis]

I was listening to Gun Talk yesterday and the A T F got caught with a big BOOBOO! They bought AKs ARs up here and took them into Mexico without them knowing or approving, then one of the weapons was used to kill one of our Boarder Patrol officers! These people are completely out of control! They will do anything to forward there agenda! INCLUDING getting us killed!!!!!
:salute: Very sad day for America!!!

[okie shooter]

Do you have a hard link on this subject.

[okie shooter]

Is this the story, sounds like it might be but, with your comments and the story are not quite identical.

Part of the gun runner sting if the story I have linked is true, thus the guns were actually bought legally by folks,(or procured as straw sale) but not transfered or sold by the actual ATF as your comments claim.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/02/01/20110201phoenix-gun-store-atf-sting-border-shootout.html

Ironcally the people buying the guns were able to legally buy guns, but straw sales are illegal.

[jdowney]

Ironcally the people buying the guns were able to legally buy guns, but straw sales are illegal.

That's why I think the ATF's strategy is all wrong. Straw purchases are illegal, but apparently are not seen as a big deal either to the buyer or the ATF. Crack down on the straw purchases with prison time and loss of civil rights, and you might see an increased reluctance to do it.

But ATF probably prefers a big, high profile bust of a gun running ring - better press, more budget $$$, etc, etc. Its not about solving the problem, its about looking good, having an expanding department, and keeping or increasing your budget allotment from one year to the next.

[19Charlie_84]

Its not about solving the problem, its about looking good, having an expanding department, and keeping or increasing your budget allotment from one year to the next.

That is the mission statement of EVERY government branch and organization.

[QuickDrawMcGraw]

Thats about as bright as there decision to place Border Patrol Troops on the southern Texas / Mexican line and arm them with top of the Line rifles and NO AMMO !!! Who made that Bright decision ?:nonono:

[Lalvis]

That looks like it might be the story. Even so for the A T F to have a operation get this far out of hand is disgraceful. Even Buba for In the heat of the night TV show could have run a better op!

[okie shooter]

Thread merged with Gunrunner thread, as they are both talking about the same story.

[okie shooter]

That's why I think the ATF's strategy is all wrong. Straw purchases are illegal, but apparently are not seen as a big deal either to the buyer or the ATF. Crack down on the straw purchases with prison time and loss of civil rights, and you might see an increased reluctance to do it.

But ATF probably prefers a big, high profile bust of a gun running ring - better press, more budget $$$, etc, etc. Its not about solving the problem, its about looking good, having an expanding department, and keeping or increasing your budget allotment from one year to the next.

Well who gets to make the call if average joe goes to the gun shop and trys to buy a rifle, wether its a straw purchase or not. Remember if there are lots of small time dealers who buy and sell firearms, thus how long do you have to own a firearm to sell it, is it hours, days, weeks or what?

I think buying for others is wrong, yet I am sure I see it all the time at shows, where the guy of a couple will talk about the firearm, make the deal, but when it comes time for the paperwork, the lady in the pair gets to actually become the owner. Hmmm wonder how many of those are because the guy has some sort of legal problem which he was removed from the law abideing list?

I imagine almost every firearm used in a crime was purchaced legally at some point, just thru other methods to include straw buys, they end up in places they shouldnt be.

[Sampson1986]

I think buying for others is wrong, yet I am sure I see it all the time at shows, where the guy of a couple will talk about the firearm, make the deal, but when it comes time for the paperwork, the lady in the pair gets to actually become the owner. Hmmm wonder how many of those are because the guy has some sort of legal problem which he was removed from the law abideing list?

I don't think it's fair to say that all such purchases are straw purchases. Many (if not most) are probably bona-fide gifts.

When I graduated from high school, my dad asked me what I wanted as a graduation present. At the time, I had a thing for .357 magnum revolvers. Right before graduation, my dad presented me with a Ruger GP-100. It was a great graduation gift. :icon_biggrin: :rockon:

[SteelCore]

What mexican criminal org is so lame they're buying SA AKs with straw sales? Weird.

[Sampson1986]

What mexican criminal org is so lame they're buying SA AKs with straw sales? Weird.

They're buying Century AKs on top of it.

I enjoy my WASR-10, but if I were a gang banger, I'd want something better than a Century. :icon_biggrin:

[okie shooter]

I don't think it's fair to say that all such purchases are straw purchases. Many (if not most) are probably bona-fide gifts.

When I graduated from high school, my dad asked me what I wanted as a graduation present. At the time, I had a thing for .357 magnum revolvers. Right before graduation, my dad presented me with a Ruger GP-100. It was a great graduation gift. :icon_biggrin: :rockon:

Did you go to the dealer or show, and do all of the dickering on the weapon, and everything but filling out the form? That's where the buyer is the person doing everything but signing the form, is what I am saying.(and legally that would be a straw buy I imagine)

Point of legality even today a gift needs the receiver to be legal to be the form filler, not the buyer. Thus if you give a gun to some one, with that specific purpose, its still a straw buy if their name not on the forms. That has been argued before, and I cannot remember what high profile case it was. When I see a guy make the deal but have his wife sign for it, it would raise my hackles if it was gonna be a straw purchace.

Just as these purchaces at the time were deemed legal, and allowed, but then the sale or transfer occoured quickly, when does a sale become a straw buy? Guess the only way to prove a straw buy is to take it to court.

[jdub3]

I don't think it's fair to say that all such purchases are straw purchases. Many (if not most) are probably bona-fide gifts.

When I graduated from high school, my dad asked me what I wanted as a graduation present. At the time, I had a thing for .357 magnum revolvers. Right before graduation, my dad presented me with a Ruger GP-100. It was a great graduation gift. :icon_biggrin: :rockon:

Most gun crime is done with stolen firearms. And, the criminals usually already have a felony.

[Sampson1986]

Point of legality even today a gift needs the receiver to be legal to be the form filler, not the buyer. Thus if you give a gun to some one, with that specific purpose, its still a straw buy if their name not on the forms.

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the end user (in this case the "giftee" (is there such a word?)) needs to fill out form 4473? I may be completely wrong, but I don't think this is the case.

Form 4473 states: Question 11.a Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 11.a.

I conclude from the above statement that it is perfectly okay to buy a firearm as a gift, fill out the 4473, take possession of the firearm, and later transfer the firearm privately as long as the end user is eligible to own/possess a firearm (eg the end user is not a felon, etc).

Again, I may be dead wrong. But if I am, then ATF needs to clarify their wording on Form 4473.

[okie shooter]

On gifting, there was a huge arguement a while back if gifts were straw purchaces, thus Maybe there is more guideance than there was a while back. If I could only get my better half to give me firearms as gifts then we would be cooking with gas though.

[jdowney]

Well who gets to make the call if average joe goes to the gun shop and trys to buy a rifle, wether its a straw purchase or not.

At the present time it is the ffl of course. The sale proceeds at their discretion.


Remember if there are lots of small time dealers who buy and sell firearms, thus how long do you have to own a firearm to sell it, is it hours, days, weeks or what?

How is that relevant? Presumably as soon as a gun is on an ffl's books he can transfer it off his books. Nothing to do with a straw sale. Come to think of it, you must mean a non-licensed dealer. Well, that's a sticky point, where does a dealer become a dealer?


I think buying for others is wrong, yet I am sure I see it all the time at shows, where the guy of a couple will talk about the firearm, make the deal, but when it comes time for the paperwork, the lady in the pair gets to actually become the owner. Hmmm wonder how many of those are because the guy has some sort of legal problem which he was removed from the law abideing list?

I think that makes my point that straw purchases are viewed very casually by buyers, dealers, and the ATF itself. Gifting is supposedly specifically allowed, though I can't cite the law or rule. Maybe it'll be a slow week at work and I'll find it :D At any rate, gifts are a pretty grey area, but one thing is that the giftee cannot be a prohibited person. I've never heard that the recipient of the gift has to be on the 4473, that sounds a lot like internet legend to me. What if my mom buys a .38 for home defense then gives it to me a year later when she decides she doesn't need it? As long as I'm not a prohibited person, the private transfer is legal with no 4473 (not in my reality though, since I live in a different state and transfer would have to go through an ffl).

Enforcement is a sticky issue, I'll grant you that. Basically, they only way they could do it and stay on the right side of FOPA of 1986 is to come down on dealers who make straw sales. Tough thing to prove. I don't think any of us want to see follow up checks on the buyer's side, that is effectively a registry and specifically dis-allowed by FOPA. ATF agents in every gun store? Not very practical.

[Sampson1986]

I don't think any of us want to see follow up checks on the buyer's side, that is effectively a registry and specifically dis-allowed by FOPA.

One of the corporate retail stores in Great Falls, Montana had a zealous employee who was doing just that. He would go back through the log books, take note of the names of transferee's, and call them up to conduct a follow up "interview". He was told to cease and desist. It's a damn good thing for him that he didn't try to conduct a follow up with me, as I'd have seen his sorry backside fired. :icon_biggrin:

[okie shooter]

How is that relevant? Presumably as soon as a gun is on an ffl's books he can transfer it off his books. Nothing to do with a straw sale. Come to think of it, you must mean a non-licensed dealer. Well, that's a sticky point, where does a dealer become a dealer?

Ya I did mean un licensed dealers.

[slim]

Did you go to the dealer or show, and do all of the dickering on the weapon, and everything but filling out the form? That's where the buyer is the person doing everything but signing the form, is what I am saying.(and legally that would be a straw buy I imagine)
.


I disagree with this point Okie.

I have done quite a few deals for female freinds of mine and girfriends alike. I do the price shopping and asking the tough questions. These ladies needed either a home or personal defense weapon for themselves. In some cases, I was doing the paying as well as the haggling especially in the case of one girlfriend who was dumb as a rock and just as broke. I figured I was doing them a favor as a firearm is an expensive purchase for some folks. I have also helped make deals for male friends but didn`t pay for the weapon. I do this to make sure my friends and loved ones are getting a fair deal when buying something they know nothing about. I also try to guide them to purchase the RIGHT weapon for their needs.

Now the reason I would not want a friend or GF to get a weapon in my name (and then "gifted") is because the weapon was for THEM. I was thinking it would be a good idea for THEM to pass the background check to own the weapon or possess it so that I was not caught unaware of any legal issues they may have unbeknownst to me. Not because I may not be able to own a firearm but because THEY might not be able to legally own a firearm. Now to the casual observer, it may have appeared I was "getting my mistress to buy me a pistol because my wife had taken out an EPO on me" to the suspicious eye but the reality was much less insidious.

I might close the deal but if the weapon isn`t for me, then the person who will own the weapon needs to pass the check.

I can see where a cautious dealer could think the worst in those situations and I don`t blame them considering the pressure they are under to conduct legal business but I`m saying it`s not always as it appears.

[okie shooter]

On the subject of gals buying guns, I do know the difference if the gal is actually in on the sale, just at many shows, the gal is passive, not getting a ak for her self(looking at the jewlery tables untill time to transfer), I believe, this is IMHO are examples of straw sales, thus I am telling you what I see at the larger city shows.

If straw buy's didn't occour, why do we have a law against it. Guess too many f olks want a gun that shouldn't have one or don't want any paperwork in their name.

[slim]

and I totally agree that they occur...I don`t disagree on that point but I`m saying it`s not always the case.

It really sucks for the dealer to have to darn near play detective or feel responsible should a straw slip by them. I do see things from the dealer`s perspective.

This all really proves the futility of such laws and restrictions. Folks hell-bent on causing mayhem find ways around the laws while folks like myself feel like they have to prove themselves worthy of a Constitutional Right

[Sampson1986]

This all really proves the futility of such laws and restrictions. Folks hell-bent on causing mayhem find ways around the laws while folks like myself feel like they have to prove themselves worthy of a Constitutional Right

Exactly.

The gun violence in Mexico, the recent tragedy in Arizona, and everyday violent crime are not the fault of gun owners, gun dealers, or gun manufacturers. The fault lies with the respective governments. When you stick your nose into something that isn't any of your damn business in the first place, you damn well better take responsibility when something goes wrong. It's time for the government to step up to the plate - punish the jerks who need to be punished and stop worrying about the everyday joe. :nonono: