War sucks...

[DAA1]

Guys I am tired of this war.... today makes the third time since this war started that I had to go tell some parents their son is not coming home.

Same damn thing IED... and HMMWV, which means their son died pretty violently.

Why???? This sucks. This sucks because the soldiers who are dying mean that their parents and families have to go on with their lives short a son.

Enough is a damn enough. Their comes a time when you just have to say this sucks. War is hell on everyone involved. I think maybe it is time for some new thinking on this. Not saying we need to pull out, but we need to think SMART about how we fight this war. I can't help but think that if we as a nation thought and fought smarter we could conclude this chapter in history without a major loss of life. Namely our young soldiers. If I could be commander in chief for one day I would add just one thing.. be SMART. Think, act, and do things the smart way.

Woe is me to tell the brass how to fight this war, but I think we need to have some new thinking and MUCH LESS dying. The loss of one soldier is too much.

I feel for this family, their son was not even 22.

For every insurgent who makes, plants, and detonates an IED I hope they all rot in pig fat. I also hope that when they meet their maker they see him on their way to hell. I cannot believe any god would allow such cowards a place in any version of heaven.

Enough is enough, Please no more visits to good and decent families. But should it be my mission again I will always fall back to what Patton said. I will not falter, I will not fail.

Hope your weekend was a good one.

[Teyvareb]

I don't even know why we're still there. It seems like the reports keep coming in of our people getting taken, their people getting taken, but nothing is really coming out of it. I know people don't want us to leave because we need to uphold our image as a world super power or whatever, but seriously, you wouldn't pay to have a house built and sit by and wait for years without the project ever being finished right? It seems like at this point, the costs are far too high for what we're getting from it.

Is the juice worth the squeeze?

I've three friends who went in, I couldn't due to medical exclusion, of them two were fortunate enough to pick careers in less than immediately needed fields. The remaining had his leave cancelled for a third tour. And for what? At this point it's a "They attacked us, so we're going to attack them back" situation. If Britain decided they wanted to bring a parliamentary government to us and came over to oust our president and set up shop, we'd probably fight back too. There's historical precedent to that one. Do we not have enough challenges to overcome within our own country that we need to seek other problems to fix?

I really don't know. I wasn't planning a rant on this, but I wholeheartedly agree that we need to step back and look at the situation from a new perspective, and plan smarter.

[WildBillCody]

Guys I am tired of this war.... today makes the third time since this war started that I had to go tell some parents their son is not coming home.

Same damn thing IED... and HMMWV, which means their son died pretty violently.

Why???? This sucks. This sucks because the soldiers who are dying mean that their parents and families have to go on with their lives short a son.

Enough is a damn enough. Their comes a time when you just have to say this sucks. War is hell on everyone involved. I think maybe it is time for some new thinking on this. Not saying we need to pull out, but we need to think SMART about how we fight this war. I can't help but think that if we as a nation thought and fought smarter we could conclude this chapter in history without a major loss of life. Namely our young soldiers. If I could be commander in chief for one day I would add just one thing.. be SMART. Think, act, and do things the smart way.

Woe is me to tell the brass how to fight this war, but I think we need to have some new thinking and MUCH LESS dying. The loss of one soldier is too much.

I feel for this family, their son was not even 22.

For every insurgent who makes, plants, and detonates an IED I hope they all rot in pig fat. I also hope that when they meet their maker they see him on their way to hell. I cannot believe any god would allow such cowards a place in any version of heaven.

Enough is enough, Please no more visits to good and decent families. But should it be my mission again I will always fall back to what Patton said. I will not falter, I will not fail.

Hope your weekend was a good one.

I hear ya man, I don't envey your job. I hate to see us pack up and leave, that would just encourage those peices of crap to start attacking us more here at home. But man, they need some fresh insight I think, I won't start to try and tell those that are over there how to do thier jobs, but it doesn't seem to be working, or if it is the F'ing media over here doesn't show us that it is. I blame the Iraqis, they need to want their country to be safe, to many different groups playing around.

I think we have stirred up a hornets nest, I'm not sure we can fix it, I hope and pray we can and that everyone stays safe.

[Norton]

DAA
I am sorry you had to deliver those messages. I want to get our troops out of Iraq as soon as we can as well. But not turn Iraq over to these animals. The only thing that will work in the long run is for the Iraq Army to pick up their end. I don't think we can ever stop these time bombs, IED or suicide attacks. So this is going to keep up as long as we have our people on the ground. My 21 and 28 year old nehpews have both took a turn over there. One is with the 3rd ACR the other with a Air Evec helo unit. They both are due to return in the fall. My family is worried sick about their pending 2nd trip. (I know other guys have went over there up to 4 times by now). But to us it is still a big deal.

[turbothis]

is there really an Iraq Army ???????????????? reallyyy......? what do they look like and where are they all day? :2pistol:

[Smokehouse69]

Only that's gonna stop all the crap over there is to divide the damned place into 3 separate countries. Shiites in the south Sunnis in the center and Kurds in the north.
Only that will never happen, because the Turks don't want a Kurdish nation on their border, because all the Kurds in Turkey would want to break away from Turkey.

[iocane]

Usually talk of strategy concerning the war ends up repeating the endless nonsense we hear in the media. Most people in the media only know how to look good on telivision. They know nothing about any important matters. As for Generals, if they get creative they risk ticking off a politician and then its good bye career.
Okay heres some ideas: Right now theres all these teams trying to design for the military a robotic truck to deliver supplies. Why wait, just put a remote control on the things. Heck, just have the remote control trucks drive all over the place setting off the IED's. Better then finding them with someone in the truck.
Currently the enemy knows all they have to do is continual send a expendeable portion of their force out to fight and eventual we give up, they win. Lets take their hopes of victory off the table. How about some big American military bases in Iraq. I mean huge enough that morter attacks simply don't have the range. Have 99 year leases on the land.
Put vast field of land mines on all sides. Have very deep hardened bunkers. Basically make it so that we have a place where are troops can't be killed ever. So theres no "we have to leave eventually". The best they could ever hope for is a stand off that leaves them in a position where we have everything we need in Iraq to flatten them.

Shoot Alsadr, of course the war isn't going to end if are enemies have immunity.

Make the military a true super power military ready for anything. Are troops shouldn't be getting killed because they were equiped for different type of battle then they faced.
Even this old technology from a second rate power would have been handy in Iraq.
samil.armour.co.za/images/truck3.jpg

Make a list of which college professors actually teach classes helpful to the ROTC. Just because the class has the right title doesn't mean the student will learn anything useful.
China does a lot of business in Iran. Tell them if Iran gets nukes or ever conquers Iraq, we will sell nukes cheap to Taiwan.
Heres a quick way to end the war. Either the terrorist back off or oil prices go down. End all bans on oil drilling anywhere. Spend a few hundred billion building coal to gasoline plants, plus the hydrogen car infrastructure. Once America has enough oil, subsidize export oil. Make oil virtually worthless. Then suddenly the middle east has no money to afford all the continual warfare.
America made worthless crude oil into something valuable, if we really wanted to we could do the opposite. Sure that would be expensive, the current situation is very expensive to.

[MicroPilot]

....Spend a few hundred billion building coal to gasoline plants, plus the hydrogen car infrastructure. Once America has enough oil, subsidize export oil. Make oil virtually worthless. Then suddenly the middle east has no money to afford all the continual warfare.
America made worthless crude oil into something valuable, if we really wanted to we could do the opposite. Sure that would be expensive, the current situation is very expensive to.

That is a GREAT idea. Now the trick is to convince the multi-billion dollar oil companies of it.

[XO3319]

It does suck but running away from Iraq means you will be facing the problem here sooner rather than later

Guerrilla wars take a lot of time to win-- 10-12 years on average for a successful counter-insurgency-- even when the media is on your side

It sucks but you will notice the enemy does not usually engage and win in a rifle fight. Most of your casualties are in Baghdad, Al Anbar has dropped off to almost nothing

If you let Iraq devolve in mutually supported madness you just gave the enemy another sanctuary to train and plan to kill you and yours later. Compared to any real war the United States has fought the casualty rate is the lowest and it is hard to see or sense success in a counter-insurgency unless you are there, and even then it is very hard to set measures of success.

The best thing you can do when fighting the insurgent is not to quit.

Answer this question. What is the suggestion for dealing with the terrorists after you have shown then the US is not willing to see a mission to completion? Where do you draw the line then?

Of course war is hard. If it was easy democrats would do it. I don't want to make light of casualties and IEDs are a horrible way to go but now that we are there we must win. There is no other choice.

That what 20 years as a soldier has taught me. That's why I'm volunteering for a MITT team when my time in the puzzle palace is done.

[IMBLITZVT]

Man, I have to ask myself the same questions.

To me every Iraqi in the whole world is not worth one US Soldier's life.

It seems like we loose if we stay and we loose if we go...

I hate to see another Vietnam... but I hate our Soldiers getting killed even more.

It seems we have little to win but much to loose. I am sorry I voted for Bush. Not that I would have voted for The Tennessee two-by-four, or Commie Kerry... I think a "no" vote would have been better.

[drine]

He was flying KC135s. Now married and moving closer to home he is flying C-130s for the 82nd. USAFA graduate. I was grooming my oldest for a slot in one of the service academies but no more. I do want and expect him to do his part as a citizen but at the same time I also expect the govt to do their part. It seems it's the same thing over and over, IED. Have the leaders on the ground and eleswhere not got a clue. A know some of our members have been there and are still there, in one location or another. I'm sure there are some ideas among the troops. As for me, it's no holes barred. It is a fight to the death so toss the rules. BlackJack Pershing did a few little tricks when he was fighting them nearly 100 years ago. When we get the politics out and look at it from common sense points, we will succeed. I don't want to leave unfinished so I'd like to see us unleash all our dogs of war!

[subknave]

I can't think of any "counterinsurgency" war the US has ever won.

The only way for us to end this is for the Iraqi government to establish itself and figure out why the insurgents are fighting and how to end it. I think a US pull out might help but might also plunge them into civil war. We had a discussion at work and some likened it to the problem the Germans had with the french underground. There really is no way to stop it. They are getting support from outside governments and have no real goal except to get us out.
At least we haven't tried the reprisal approach.

[Grasshopper]

I can't think of any "counterinsurgency" war the US has ever won.

The only way for us to end this is for the Iraqi government to establish itself and figure out why the insurgents are fighting and how to end it. I think a US pull out might help but might also plunge them into civil war. We had a discussion at work and some likened it to the problem the Germans had with the french underground. There really is no way to stop it. They are getting support from outside governments and have no real goal except to get us out.
At least we haven't tried the reprisal approach.

German "Warewolves post ww2. We found them and executed them after telling them their crime of being sabotours and spies.
It went like this:
1. Lt Robbins; Rothguard Schroder, you are guilty of being a saboture, you sentence is death. Do you have any last words?
2. Rothguard Schroder; Heil Hitler!!!!
1. Lt Robbins; (his pistol) boom!
2. Rothguard Schroder; (thud) as he hits the ground.
In this war you can change the name of the sabotour to Achmad Ha'bebebooboo or whatever.
Our leaders are slow bleading us on purpouse I feel. Why then if you know where the bad guys are and when they are digging or placing IEDs or you chase them around corners and they take the head shit off and act like nothing happened you can't put a bullet in their brains or shoot them while ying IEDs? This bullshit has to stop, if you find em in the act of trying to kill you, kill em. (.)
In the bible it talks of the "abomination of desolation", if that is what Iran and Syria want to be, killing everybody that does not see Alla like they do then we should find their leaders reguardless of what boad of directors they sit on and arrest them and tri them. If found that they are supporting terrorism then we should ask the familys of the dead what we should do to them.

I say we, but it is you guys not "Me" that is doing the patroling and dieing. It bothers me to see our leaders letting you guys walk into killing zones, KNOWING they are fkn hot and not softening it up a bit.:2pistol:
I pray for all of you fighters in this country. I look up to you guys. If I had a kid I'd want them to be like you Army, Marines and Sailers as well as our Airforce. You are good, and good people, when they have had enough will get it done themselves as needed.
In vietnam the b52 pilots told their commanders that they'd not fly unless the missles were taken out to a reasonable level. Am I suggesting that your Generals should take their heads out of their asses and tell the SOD to walk the walk himself? Maybe. I don't know what the answer is and I don't know what I would say to a Mother whos son was just killed in a horrible way.
God bless

[XO3319]

French and Indian War

Barbary Pirates

The Indian Campaigns

The Phillipines (1899-1902) "Civilize them with Krag...."

The Banana Wars-- Haiti, Nicaragua, etc...

we actually have a long history of winning at insurgencies, but we seem to have lost the will to do so. The worst thing you can do is to quit.

If you want to quit, fine. Just don't be surprised when said enemy shows up on your door step.

[mrbgt]

Its too damn bad our soldiers can't fight like they did in WW2 ,this shit would have been over 2 years ago. POLITICS ,LAWYERS, AND THE MEDIA ,don't belong in war .We used to use flame throwers and burn the bastards out of there rat holes , now we have to draw fire from them first.I dream of a day when a person leads this country the way it should be lead , today we vote for the lesser evil. The first time the enemy violates the geneva convention (beheading prisoners) all gloves come off. :rockon:

[DAA1]

we are governed by the law of war, at times I wish we were not, but Iraq has to want to change, that is the hard part. We can't just carpet bomb the whole country, at times I wish we could, but that is just me being mad at things over there.

We have a professional army, but I once read somewhere that the only way to fight an insurgency and win is to fight them the same way they fight us.

I have the easy job.. the hard job is for those soldiers who loose their buddies, and they have to go on. The families who loose their sons and daughters have to go on.

Better to fight them there than here, and yes they will come here in time. I hope we are ready for that.

If we win the people of Iraq, we can win this war. But we have to find a way to win accross centuries of hatred and religious factions. These folks seem to have forgot that they all worship the same damn god. Who gives a crap about the prophet, if god is that important then worship god. I don't care who the prophet delivering the message is. I got a lot of questions for god, I hope in time I get a chance to ask him and remember all my questions and not get stage fright. LOL What a day.

[Planning]

there are those of us on this site that have been in harms way. it is never an easy task to spend your day as if it's the last, but after a few days you don't even think of it that way. you just go about your business and do what you have been trained to do and do it the best you can. there is no easy answer to why someone is killed or wounded and not you, like there are no easy answers to war. some of the questions and answered here have been the same questions and answers given in past wars and conflicts ( just change the dates and countries). what we do as warriers is fight wars. we have been trained to do it the best we can and to survive. the problem is our enemies have been trained to do the same. nobody wins and everybody loses.

DAA1 has a job that nobody wants, but must be done. i don't envy what he must do do and do it well for the families and the person that was killed in action. i have been on the front end of picking up pieces to send home to love ones and that was not an easy chore, but also must be done.
"thank you DAA1 for what you must do.............."

please seperate the politics of war from the warrier, they are not the same.
remember we are a nation of warriers ( like it or not) and that is what we do best. this is what has made our country strong in the world of nations...........
seldom in world history has conflicts been resolved by politicians. the warrier has been the resolution to most conflicts and will be in the future....

right or wrong, who knows.............

an old warrier has spoken.............SGT RON

[SteelCore]

Right on, man.

As one who has never served, I have not yet been the picke or maker of pieces or the deliverer of bad news. I think Ron sums it up.

"we need to think SMART about how we fight this war. I can't help but think that if we as a nation thought and fought smarter we could conclude this chapter in history without a major loss of life. "
-->+1 DAA. The commitment the US had to WW1 and WWII meant a war economy for the US folks at home, and they dinn't bitch about food or fuel rationing...they sucked it up, bought war bonds, worked the jobs that once were worked by the warfighters, and the WHOLE DAMN COUNTRY WENT TO WAR! Today, we have the luxury of debating, only bitch abt gas prices, or which dem will be in power...we have it easy.

[I've got some war gods, if any want to borrow them. They may be a bit old and crusty, but they do their part...they've seen a few buddies thru the sandbox already...]

[Seattlefungus]

You'd think there would come a time in a dysfunctional government run by inept and corrupt politicians, which our government has a long and nefarious history of, that a reasonably informed person asks themselves when are people going to realize that no war has every been won in Washington DC. Not One! WWI, Pres Wilson agreed and supported the Armistice. That, allowing French and England to be punitive and destroy the economy of Germany allowed the conditions which allowed Hitler to come to power.
WWII. FDR, and then Truman, Gave all of Eastern Europe to Stalin, Agreed to a division of North and South Korea as an appeasement to Stalin which took us to another war in Korea. That war became "unpopular on the home front and Truman ordered no further advances, just hold and negotiate.. Surprise, another Armistice...
I won't even talk about Vietnam.. Except to say that members of the Vietnam provisional government approached the US at the end of the war (in which they tied up three Japanese Divisions while the French did nothing) and asked for recognition as a sovereign government, not a French colony. Truman said no...
So, our history if filled with battlefield distinction and brilliance in tactics, innovation, motivation and heroism. Only to be lost at the seat of government. Our military wins the battles only to loose the war in Washington DC.
The Best thing that could happen in Iraq is give the area military commanders the support they need and let them do it... They said from the beginning that did not have the personnel or equipment. I have to say to date, they have done a damn fine job in the face of every adversity unmanageable.
The one common thing all those battles listed by XO0319 is missing is a liberal agenda "Free Press".... Which feeds Washington and allows Photo ops and face time on TV and ect....

[drine]

and also point out the age they were done. We are so politically correct now that it hampers us. I read that Pershing wrote a letter telling the insurgents that the bullets his men carried were being dipped in pig blood and that all bodies recovered would be buried in a pig's body. Say that today and you'd find yourself going home! "F" the rules, you can't be Ms. Goody Two-shoes and fight these folks. I want us to win with little cost to our guys and gals.
I'm not there and won't insult the guys on this board or elsewhere by trying to figure it out for them. So I say this as humbly as I can and not denegrate these fine soldiers,marines, airman, and sailors. I've got too many questions. IED? Armor everything we can but for the love of God don't let them line the roads with them at night. Curfew?
AND, the next time let's try to help people who want helping.......these folks know little about our systems and care even less. You can't want more for people than they want. Africa? they got no oil so we ain't there. We could do a lot with a few divisions in that locale.
Again, I point out my four NUKES approach! You want balls, say it and mean it with selected targets.

[mrbgt]

i feel for ya DAA1, i couldn't think of anything harder than delivering that kind of news. sorry about the war rant ,i think we are all getting sick of it .Thanks to all that serve :America:

[iocane]

That is a GREAT idea. Now the trick is to convince the multi-billion dollar oil companies of it.

Why give them a choice? In my state Oregon, the state goverment once required a additive to gasoline that caused microscopic holes in the tanks of gas stations. Then they required the tanks be removed by special companies costing about a $100,000 each. Wiped out most independant gas stations.
With so much competetion gone, the big companies thrived.
How about some goverment interference that is actually constructive. Require all companies with more then ten gas stations to be able to refuled hydrogen powered cars. There making big profits, they can afford it. Better then costly laws that kill competetion.
. Alternative fuels have trouble being profitable till the scale is raised way up. Companies don´t want to invest the big bucks when gas might become cheap again someday. Take half the gas tax and put it to subsidizing alternative fuels. Since small alternative fuel production, that adds up to a lot per gallon of alternative fuels. So that adds up to companies building a lot of huge alternative fuel plants.

[turbothis]

i remember all the tanks being dug up. looked like a bomb went off during construction.

[XO3319]

Well

speaking from a guy who has fought this war with professionals. There is a distinct difference from how you see it over there and how it is seen at home.

It seems like my Army and I are at war, but America is at the mall.

We are winning this war, but it will not be won overnight. If time is not allotted, we will lose this war and the losses will not be insignificant. We lost 300 soldiers a week in World War II. We are losing 2 soldiers a day in Iraq. I know I do the casualty reports.

If we quit, we won't have the ability or the will to intervene again when we need to. If we withdraw from Iraq before the job is done, The United States will no longer be a super power, not because we don't have the assets and power projection, but because we don't want to be. And that damage will not be forgotten. Who do you want guiding the world in 2010? I sure as hell don't want it to be China, or worse yet nobody. The terrorists now have another safe haven and ALL of the coalition deaths are then in vain. I don't want that.

Sacrifice is necessary to win this. We are in Iraq now, the only way out is to win. You don't win by quitting. When we gave up on Vietnam, 3 million Vietnamese, Yards and Cambodians died in reeducation camps and by the hands of the Peace loving people of North Vietnam. What do you think the peace loving muslim islamofascists are going to do with the Iraqis who helped us?

These are my thoughts. I'm going back to fight in 2008. I don't really care if my country is behind me because it's the right thing to do.

'nuff said

[DAA1]

The news media is not helping us win this war, and I agree it does look very different when you are over there, even where I was. Which was so far deep in CFLCC that even I did not know where I was. I was just one very small piece of the puzzle, it did not dawn on me where I was at until I left. I met and worked with soldiers and leaders of whom I would have no problem working with again, they are some of the best. War sometimes brings out the very best in people, it showed me that there are some really great folks in all the branches.

Remember, what you see in the media is what they want you to see. What we see over there is what really happens. This war is fought in "real-time" where you can see events unfold right on the big screen. I never saw the bodies, I saw the remains of vehicles as they sat in the yard waiting to be sent back, I read the reports of IED's, and I was sad. I don't know how the personel folks can handles all those casualty reports.

We have really good system in place, families are notified in person within 24 hours sooner if possible, later if there is no way to find the family. We not only bring them the worst news of their day, but we bring them a soldier to assist them every step of the way. We do more than any news report says, and we do it with care and compassion. There is no nice way to tell a family that their son is dead, much less that he was killed by a coward. How do you tell a family their son is hero and because he died there we can keep the war there and not let it come here?

I stated once before on the old boards some time ago. I wish I could share what it feels like to tell a family their son is dead. I would share that raw emotion with those in the media who only care about the story, let them "feel" this, but I digress, if they can't the story right, what makes any of us think they can "feel" anything?

There is no greater sacrifice than to serve ones country, there is no greater honor then to support those who serve, this great nation was built on the blood of patriots, and forever shall soldiers make the sacrifices to keep her free.
(not my words, bits and pieces I gathered)

[WildBillCody]

"It seems like my Army and I are at war, but America is at the mall."

Most Shepeople want to forget, and they have allready forgotten 911.

Look at this JFK thing, we have to fight over there to protect us here.
We need to stop using oil, that is what is funding thier efforts, really by now, we should have something better.

[okie shooter]

War sucks, no matter how glorious history makes it seem, we send men and women off to war, if killed it takes all they have ever been and all they will ever be. Its a waste, if it could be prevented we would be far better off, but history shows, we cannot get along well enough, for that to happen.

No matter what, it all boils down to guys like DAA1 has to go out and tell loved ones that their son or daughter is dead. That job sucks, I don't care about oil, or anything else. No matter what any one says war is not glorious on that level, folks do rise above and commit acts to save the lives of others. Many guys that receive CMH's say they did what they needed to do to save lives of their brothers in arms.

We fliped alot of crap at Cindy Sheehan, she maybe has some unusal ideas about other things. But she lost a son in this war, and has been willing to be the lighting rod against it. So no matter if you agree or disagree with her, remember she lost a close loved one, and thats what drives her. Notice when she started critizeing the democrats on not living up to the ideas that made her the poster spokesperson for, they droped their support for her too. Thus she was true to her ideas, against the war.

[Seattlefungus]

Just a couple of thoughts,
I was a Jarhead grunt in the early 70's... Then got out and for some insane reason I joined the Seattle Police. Now, almost 30 years later, I look back and a lot of the complaints being voiced here were the same when I was in the Corps over 30 years ago and in cop locker rooms and roll-call rooms around the county, from the liberal press complaints, to the public don't care, and having to go knock on some citizen's door at two AM to them them that their son was killed in some mishap or accident to going to a fellow officers home with the Department Chaplain to tell the wife of your squadmate or worse, partner was in the hospital in critical, or dead, and like the military family's, the police family's know what it means when the uniforms arrive and they see the partnet, but not their spouse.. Hard thing... Never ever get used to it. Hope I never do...
There are always Rules of Engagement. Were in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and any place our "Government" has decided to flex military muscle. And I totally agree with XO. We are in... If we bail. We fail... We cannot be taken serious in todays world by anybody if we can'nt finsh what we start. As we can't evan keep our boarders under control... How the hell can we stop truck loads of dirty bombs driving in the US from the southern boarder when ever they wish... If we can'nt protect ourselfs and our world interests then who will. Read up on some of the ruling in trade and manufactuing judements coming out against the U.S. companies. Amercia bashing is a world sport. It sure was'nt with Reagan in the Whitehouse. With a real president in office, most contries were afraid to be bombed back to the stoneage.. Just ask Kadafe. The man was not perfect. But he made the decision and stuck to it. He brought back the Battleships and put them on world port tours.. Most of those contries had never seen something with so many big guns. The implication was there. We have the tools.. Screw with us and we will use them on you, and NO, we will not ask the UN first...

[XO3319]

Victor Davis Hanson

"Our soldiers are fighting brilliantly, and history will record they are defeating the enemy while suffering historically low casualties. But if the sacrifice of American youth is not tied — daily, hourly — to larger strategic and humanitarian goals by eloquent statesmen who believe in the mission, then cynicism follows and, with it, despair."

Read the whole thing


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzExZWE4M2QyZDc4YTQxMmY4OTUwMzBkM2JjNjE0OTE=

[okie shooter]

XO, and any one else thats been there, I have a questions, are the Iraqis(the average Iraqi in the market stall, or on the street, not the leadership) as apethetic and just plain tired of the fighting, as the american public seems to be towards the situation? Or is it simply their hatred of each other is so deep that Iraq standing as a nation may take a heavy hand like Sadam was there, or Tito was in Yugoslavia? Will the fractional problems prevent them from ever building a army that can control the country?(The US Army has had issues with this problem at times, with gangs from cities setting up within the ranks, but the Army is not proud of it)

I am asking this because there are comments for more force in the country, but there is no front line, and unlike even vietnam, the forces live with the population, there is no NVA, and VC, it all more like VC, but even then intergrated in the towns and cities. Heck the population there is armed with automatic weapons, I imagine thus hard to tell friend from foe.

[XO3319]

From my brother in law who returned in 2006 and many others (I am an Afghan vet myself) the feeling is that Iraqis are highly nationalistic with some tribal divides. Sectarian violance is heavily down. If we can bankrupt Syrian and Iranian sanctuary and active support we can see success, and already are. You don't see that in the press

The Army is already stood up (at 350k) and taking over. It is a real force to be reckoned with now. The police on the other hand need much more time-- their training effort was handled badly from the get go. and spreading out into the cities helps us-- then we determine the pace of operations. More force..the right force though-- killers and combat troops-- is what needs to be out there. And thats what we're doing. Only guys like Michael Yon are telling that story. You will miss it in the Media.

[Seattlefungus]

I really have to say, XO nailed the Police training issue... They came to our Derpartment and offered $120K to go and train the Iraq police. Now don't get me wrong. In the US today, we have some outstanding police departments and some of the best training and equipment in the world for civil policing. That being said. We do not have the type of training needed by Iraq police that are dealing in secular violence, tribal ties going back hundreds of years and terrorist cells entering the country to set up insurgency. The people I saw taking the offer were OK cops in the US. None had military background. What the hell were they thinking. I'll teach them how to take a statement?, The Reid Method of interrogation, Parking enforcement? Setting up a report database? What a crock... That operation should of been handled by Military Intel and Army CID types in theater.... Identification of the supply and support of the secular rebels and cutting the lines of support, isolating them from the outside and taking them down cell by cell... Civilian cops are not trained to do that. Nor should we.