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Patria Povo
04-13-2011, 07:05 PM
While former Italian, Turkish and German enemy soldiers now march alongside Australian veterans on ANZAC Day, the proposal to allow or even invite former Viet Cong insurgents and North Vietnamese Army veterans is meeting serious resistance from many Australians.



No forgiving cruel Viet Cong
Hal G. P. Colebatch From: The Australian April 13, 2011 12:00AM 12 comments

THE proposal that Australian Diggers should march alongside former members of the Viet Cong calls to mind Cassandra's famous request for a handkerchief, an aspidistra, a quiet corner and the old heave-ho. But in fact it is more serious than that.

The Viet Cong were not an honourable enemy worthy of the honours of war. I do not know of a single Australian taken prisoner by them who they allowed to live, though I know of several Australian civilian journalists, at least, who were murdered in cold blood by them.

No one knows if any Australian servicemen tried to surrender to them, but if so they did not live to tell about it. The American fliers captured in North Vietnam after their aircraft were shot down were routinely tortured at the "Hanoi Hilton". Again no one knows how many of these were simply murdered.

Similarly, the Viet Minh's earlier treatment of French prisoners captured after the fall of Dien Bien Phu resulted in death-rates very similar to those in the World War II Japanese slave-camps.

None of these facts are seriously disputed by anyone. Not all enemies are the same, and while it is true that some former enemies may meet again in friendship, it is by no means a universal rule. To have former Australian Diggers march with the former Viet Cong would be taken as an admission that the Viet Cong were morally on the right side.

In fact, the Viet Cong were not fighting for an honourable cause, or for "national liberation". The so-called National Liberation Front was a sham. The North Vietnamese and their catspaws in the south were invading a country that did not want them or their rule, as witnessed by the hundreds of thousands of refugees who escaped or drowned trying to escape by boat after the north's victory in 1975.

Many thousands who escaped from the Viet Cong and succeeding communist slavery live in Australia and such a parade would be a gross insult to them as well as to Australian servicemen.

The Australian and allied servicemen who fought and suffered in Vietnam did so in a noble and by no means wholly unsuccessful cause.

They bought the fragile nations of Southeast Asia time to strengthen their economies and democratic institutions so as to turn the region into one of the modern world's great success stories: nothing to be ashamed of.

The North Vietnamese forces established a brutal police state in the south. Even today, more than a generation after the war ended, there is almost no political or religious freedom or institutional freedom of expression there. It remains one of the least free countries in the world.

To claim the Viet Cong were "tough, determined and disciplined" as though this confers some moral virtue upon them does not in fact make them an honourable or worthy enemy.

Exactly the same claim could be made about the Nazis or the Japanese White Tigers, who they also resembled in such matters as the treatment of prisoners.

To have Australian troops march with them now would not be a gracious gesture of reconciliation but an insult of the most dishonourable kind to the 50,000 Australians who fought in Vietnam and the 500 who died there, telling them and their families that in effect their sacrifice was worthless, or even on the wrong side.

One wonders if those responsible for this proposal are aware of the true implications of what they are suggesting?

Hal G. P. Colebatch is an author, poet, lecturer, journalist, editor and lawyer.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion

RicePaddyDaddy
04-13-2011, 07:50 PM
Good post.

Norton
04-13-2011, 09:10 PM
I had to think about this for a while before a reply. I don't think the Viet Cong or NVA should in march a parade within Australia.. Nor Should Americans or any other Western Allied troops march in a parade inside of North Vietnam. As far as I know former WW 2 Japanese troops have never marched in a military parade in Allied nations, so this Italian, Turkish and German thing is new to me. I guess they do now.

On the other hand I think most of these nations have had veterans from the other side pay their respects to the dead. I saw WW 2 German veterans laying wreaths on battlefield monuments within Russia. The Germans were wearing some sort of Military veterans pins on their jackets. The Russians were treating them with great respect. On the same note, I understand U.S. Vietnam veterans are treated with total respect when visting former South Vietnam as well as the North.

As far as I know the NVA was an all drafted army, You went in and came out after you won the war, got wounded or killed. The NLF or Viet Cong drafted people at the point of a rifle. There was no way out except death or defecting But also had many who came willingly as they hated the Western Allies for killing their family members in millitary actions, bombings. Or they really believed they were liberating Vietnam.

So to be clear on what I mean. If a VC or NVA want to watch Australian or NZ Vets march past out of respect and salute. I am all for it. The reverse is true also.
But they should not be marching in some other nations millitary parade to honor veterans.

By the way, I know we can bring up the SS, Kempi Ti, Nkvd and other blood stained organzations.. There is no perfect one size all fits way to think about this.

Norton out

RandyCOG3
04-13-2011, 09:56 PM
"To me"... if a soldier from Country A is shooting at a soldier from Country B, at some point in time, after hostilities cease, perhaps they might no longer be enemies, or feel the hatred from before; each was just doing his job.

The Viet Cong, however, contain a great number of people who, if it were possible, would be prosecuted and convicted of "war crimes", or "crimes against humanity". No better than the Japanese that participated in the Bataan Death March and other such atrocities. Similarly, there's a big difference between a "German soldier", and a Nazi.

It wasn't clear to me where this idea came from. And, how, exactly, do they expect any Diggers to participate in it?

(Note that, in the above, the word "soldier" applies equally to all branches of service, no offense intended...)

RandyCOG3

Patria Povo
04-13-2011, 10:06 PM
How about a little reciprocity from Hanoi first?

I'd like to see a few battalions of ARVN and allied veterans marching down the main streets of Saigon next year.

And maybe then we can discuss war crimes tribunals and human rights violation trials for VC and NVA. Maybe an official admission of guilt and reparations for the countless attrocities committed against civilians (hue being just the most well known and documented).

yellowhand
04-13-2011, 10:40 PM
It's been nearly forty years for me, and back then I was busy staying alive and keeping others alive, so I just went back and looked at the numbers.
Checked two or three places and these numbers seem to hold up


http://www.ballaratgenealogy.org.au/ex_pow_memorial.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Australia_during_the_Vietnam_W ar

521 KIA 1,358 to 3000 WIA no pow's Australia
About 60k from Australia served during the whole conflict period.


More than 500 civilians were killed by the American military in My Lai Massacre.

The Army of the Republic of Vietnam ARVN suffered 266,000 killed from 1959 through 1975

According to the government in Hanoi, 1,100,000 North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong military personnel died in the Vietnam War[4] Rummel reviewed the many casualty data sets, and this number is in keeping with his mid-level estimate of 1,011,000 North Vietnamese combatant deaths.[1] He further calculated a mid-level estimate of 251,000 Viet Cong military deaths.[5] Thus, Viet Cong forces accounted for about 22% of the total communist military deaths.

Deaths Caused by NVA/VC Forces
NVA/VC forces killed about 86,000 civilian and 33,000 prisoners of war between 1957 and 1975.

Deaths Caused by South Vietnamese Forces
The estimated total number of civilian and suspected communist deaths caused by South Vietnamese forces from 1955 to 1975 was 145,500.

RicePaddyDaddy
04-14-2011, 06:58 PM
Anybody that shoots at me if he lives will never be my friend.I'm sorry,I have many faults and being slow to forgive is one of them.

TXZ1956
04-14-2011, 07:49 PM
Asian cultures always look long term and have patience. They knew that 20 years down the road they could approach us as friends. I thought back when we opened ties with them it was a mistake. We should never forget their Government supported attrocities. It only encourages the next enemy to do the same. We should never have opened ties to the same communist government that abused prisoners and murdered countless others. We should have broken that cycle then and stated we would never have ties with that government because of that reason.

yellowhand
04-14-2011, 10:15 PM
Anybody that shoots at me if he lives will never be my friend.I'm sorry,I have many faults and being slow to forgive is one of them.

Agree with RCP, try and kill me, say you plan to kill me or mine, I WILL never forget or forgive nor turn my back on them, last week, or fifty years from now.
May not be right, but it is the way it is...

Phirebug
04-15-2011, 03:35 PM
Anybody that shoots at me if he lives will never be my friend.I'm sorry,I have many faults and being slow to forgive is one of them.

+1. Me and Haj ain't gonna be sitting down for chai anytime soon.

Airmedic6
04-15-2011, 04:11 PM
This is disgraceful- who wants Australians to march with VC or NVA? I must have missed something

Patria Povo
04-15-2011, 04:16 PM
This is disgraceful- who wants Australians to march with VC or NVA? I must have missed something

The proposal came from one of the state Returned Servicepersons League ... sort of like the American VFW I think.

As I said, former allies regularly march with is (including Americans and South Vietnamese) along with Turks and Germans (both former enemies and allies in various wars of he past 100 years).

As I recall, some Imperial Japanese veterans were invited to witness a march and dawn service one year ... but they were certainly NOT there to march alongside the diggers!

Norton
04-15-2011, 04:55 PM
Patria Povo Question

Did The Germans and Turks march in Australia or watch ANZAC troops march in Australia ?

I understand about former enemy veterans being at memorial events, but marching in a parade sounds odd.

I don't think Redcoat, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish, Mexican, North Korean or NVA 'War vets' have marched in a parade here in the states.

Maybe Conferderates in the WW 1 era.. I was going to say Plains Indians but I don't they marched either.