I have found Bubba's Holy Bible [Archive]

Buddymack

04-15-2011, 04:57 PM

It is very interesting how we value things throughout the years, I can remember the "bubba" of cars back in the day, they thought that Nova was worthless unless it had a set of Craigars or Keystones and had the back end so raked it looked like it was going to do a cartwheel.
Now we can buy a Savage with accutrigger and already has the floated barrel and such, now we realize we may never see this piece of history again unless we start to en-value them, to keep them as the hands that fought with them and gave their life's blood with them, I believe as an ex military person it is also something else, once we had a contract with the Government it was a blank check that we initialed away that could have cost us our lives, it was a sacrifice of our young manhood, a sacrifice of self...
Now we own a part of what used to own us.:icon_biggrin:

weasel_master

04-15-2011, 05:07 PM

I'll never forget that washer leg. I seriously thought the guy was joking.

bladeworks123

04-15-2011, 09:46 PM

Don't laugh, but somewhere in all my stuff of my Dad's, I have, I think three or four of those, from back in the 50's. I think they are like first second and third edition. Looks like that one was the 5th edition. The Williams Gunsight Company was big on all the parts you needed to do that. Very popular back in the 50's and 60's when mil-surp rifles were floating around like stray cats, to have a "sporterized" military rifle for hunting. I traded for an 03-A3 once, that had been converted to .256 Roberts. It shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, had a beautiful black walnut hand checkered stock on it, adjustable trigger, and was a flat shooting deer killing machine. I also have a book that explains in great detail how to make the cuts on a 03 pistol grip stock to put a cheek piece on it, a grip cap and a forend tip. They may have been bubba'd but some of them were pretty nice rifles. Shame to think about it now, but back then they thought no more of it than we do today of screwing a varmint barrel on an AR. Williams was also big on converting .300 savage rifles to the new .308 win cartridge.

Noskov

04-16-2011, 12:29 AM

Some bubbas are done well, some aren't. I don't cringe when I see a sportrized Mauser turned into a capable hunting rifle...I will cringe and fall over if I see a sporterized Mauser with an AR stock and picatinny rails with a foregrip. :eek:

Perro Del Diablo

04-16-2011, 09:40 AM

I completely understand that this was an accepted practice back in the 50s, and 60s, and i understand that there are alot of skilled people who did the conversions back in the day. To alot of people military firearms are junk, and second quality to commercially produced firearms, and it's ok to them to slip there firearm in a new fancy figured stock, and solder on some target sights, and cut down the barrel and install a commercial ramp sight on the barrel.
but what about the people who care about the firearms military history? What about those of us who like to pick up a firearm and see something our grandfathers or great grandfathers carried during the war, or like to wonder if that dirt under the Garand handguard might belong to France

wait till you get a chance to finally purchase a 1941 Johnson rifle and it has been sporterized - under 20,000 of them ever made
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=225385777

or, a 1905 Ross rifle - only 20,000 of them issued to the U.S.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=224703070

last time i checked they weren't making any more 1898 Krags at the REAL Springfield Armory
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=224543620

I see tons of people sporterizing the firearms that are readily available today, and i always hear the same story "but there were a million mosins made, and they are only $69.00 so who cares"
Seen any M44 Mosins lately?? used to be able to buy them by the truck loads still in mummy wrap for $69.00 from big 5 on sale - i cannot tell you how many times ive heard a donk say something like "Yeah, these rifles are great, my uncle has one. and the ammunition is cheap too - i'm going to drill and tap the receiver for a hunting scope and use this as a truck gun, and hunt with it"

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=224651025

91/30s starting to dry up?? lets get the ATI synthetic stock for it, the scope mount, and then hack the bolt handle off with a hacksaw and demil tool and drill and tap the bolt handle
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=225260323

<---------- purist at heart

and to each his own, but in my opinion BUBBA SUCKS!!

And Buddymack, i learned how to drive a stickshift in my buddies nova 2 with a three on the tree - i have always loved the Nova 2 because that is basically how i learned to drive.

Norton

04-16-2011, 10:46 AM

Santa Claus: ''How about a nice football''?
Ralphie ''No No I want an Official 1905 Ross rifle - only 20,000 of them issued to the U.S''
Santa Claus: ''You'll shoot your eye out, kid''.

drine

04-16-2011, 10:52 AM

This reminds me of the Remington 1917 Mosin at the local shop. All chopped up and nowhere to go. I would rescue it but they want $225 as it sits.
Bubba's Bible is a good choice of words because that pamphlet goes way beyond a hacksaw and drill and type. Looks like it's more for the true believer!
I think the bubba era is over(for the most part) for all but the Mosins. Surely to God no one is going to buy a nice Enfield for the price they command today then whack the stock off and toss the sights. You can buy new production rifles that are better in a sense. You never know though, a true Bubba has no sense style and class. As much as we might not like him or his work, he's made our untouched samples more valuable.
I would like to know how many Enfields or Mausers, etc. of any type we imported versus the Mosins we are getting now. I've also heard there are plenty more waiting for that boat ride here. Whether or not import restrictions stop that or the cost is getting too high to import and sale is causing the "shortage" remains to be seen.
I myself still plan to visit the local shop to get few more or the more "collectable" ones. I can't buy it with my C&R cheaper than they want plus I get to hand pick from 4 cases they bought.
I suppose collectible cars have the same guys as fans. You used to could get a nice 60-70 camaro around here but they got hot rodded and wrecked over the years. Hmmm, same principle?

drine

04-16-2011, 11:10 AM

I need to look close at my Prinz Model 1000. I know it has a Santa Barbara barrel and Mauser action, I bought in Germany in 1985. The English gun shop owner said they were "kit" guns that were sold and built in garages. He bought a batch and built them. It appears very similar to one of those shown.

Perro Del Diablo

04-16-2011, 12:55 PM

Santa Claus: ''How about a nice football''?
Ralphie ''No No I want an Official 1905 Ross rifle - only 20,000 of them issued to the U.S''
Santa Claus: ''You'll shoot your eye out, kid''.

LITERALLY!! :icon_biggrin:

I suppose collectible cars have the same guys as fans. You used to could get a nice 60-70 camaro around here but they got hot rodded and wrecked over the years. Hmmm, same principle?
absolutely
i have a 68 Olds 442 convertible and it doesnt have 1 piece of aftermarket chrome on it either ;)

Surely to God no one is going to buy a nice Enfield for the price they command today then whack the stock off and toss the sights.
does putting a blackhawk quick adjustable tactical sling with quick release mounts on an Enfield count?? If so i know of a guy who recently did just that with a SMLE No.1 :walkdoor:

bladeworks123

04-16-2011, 03:19 PM

Now a days, we live in a society where there are so many choices. We now live in a world where new technology is sought after. People want to move on to the next version, the latest upgrades and the improvements that makes their "stuff" the most recent, and best. We have always had, and always will have the people who want to convert washing machine legs into something they shouldn't be. Those are the true Bubba's out there. The thin line between Bubba and customization and improvement is fairly well defined.

Back in the hey day of military rifle conversions, and custom hot rods, there was a totally different way of thinking. Especially with firearms and cars, it was more about taking a part of history and transforming it into something that was "customized". I think it was more about the ability to personalize a piece of the past and enhance it's capabilities than it was about preserving history.

Those three or four generations had had enough in their involvement with history and wanted to move on to better and improved. My Dad used to look at a military rifle and instead of saying "now that is a thing of beauty" or "what a fantastic piece of history" he would, I think, see a part of his history that he didn't quite see with the same romantic historical eye that I did. As a kid I can recall many guys who got looked down on or felt sorry for if they were seen elk hunting with a plain old .30-40 Krag or any military rifle in it's purest form.

Just like none of us today cringe too much at the thought of modifications done to AR's to make them better suited for "hunting rifles".

What is it that allows us to take license with what we do now... I contend that it is still that desire to improve and modify one thing into something that we can use for our individual needs and desires. There have always been, and will always be those who cringe at the thought of erasing the "original" and changing it into something that it shouldn't be. But we also have to realize that whatever you want to call it, "sporterized" "customized" or "bubba'd", it also has played an important part in where we are today.

Where would we be today without the US Marine armorers who decided they wanted to cut the rear sight off of a 03-A3 Springfield, drill two or three holes in the receiver and mount a scope to the top of it to make it a sniper rifle. They ruined a perfectly good 1903 Springfield. Not to mention guys like Carlos Hathcock who decided to rig a Unertl scope on the top of an .50 cal M2. He got laughed at by many at the time, but the concept sparked realization that maybe the combination of quality optics and a workhorse cartridge might be useful. Or how about the guys who pulled a perfectly good 1962 Chevrolet Impala into a garage and chopped the hell out of it so they could take it to the drag strip or stock car track, where would performance vehicles today be without some of that.

I think maybe that a lot of that great American bubbaness was, in a way, the spark that leads us to the technology and greatness that we are as a country.

Turning washing machine legs into rear sights, cutting the trunk out of a 62 Impala to use it to feed cattle out of, using freight wagon wheels to build porch swings and mounting flashlights to AR forearms with hose clamps,,,, that's Bubba. I don't think the sporterized military rifle craze period of firearms history falls all the way to that level. Even though many of us, including me, feel a shiver go up our spine when we hear of someone wanting to chop up a Mauser today, back during that era it was really not a whole lot different than what we do today. Someday, someone may call me a Bubba for welding one of Turbos rails on top of my Hk clone re-builds.

Hang on to that book Perro, it someday will be an important piece of history documenting the influence that military rifles had and the important part they played in the development of modern sporting rifles, and how the whole metamorphisis came about.

Girth

04-16-2011, 03:40 PM

I've got an old edition of that Williams catalog around here somewhere too. They also put out an updated version a few years back.

Im new here so maybe I don't get this "bubba" thing, but from what I'm reading the sporterized 1917 Enfield my Mom has is a "bubba" rifle??? I figured it was a lighter, more accurate, better functioning (cock on opening now rather than closing) rifle that actually get USED rather than being the gun equivalent of a "trailer queen" that just sits in a safe. Its a damn fine rifle now, with a lot of its parts from the Williams catalog, to include sights that are far superior to the originals.

Norton

04-16-2011, 04:59 PM

Back in the hey day of military rifle conversions, and custom hot rods, there was a totally different way of thinking. Especially with firearms and cars, it was more about taking a part of history and transforming it into something that was "customized".

Hang on to that book Perro, it someday will be an important piece of history documenting the influence that military rifles had and the important part they played in the development of modern sporting rifles, .

Well said Chief

Buddymack

04-16-2011, 05:50 PM

It is funny that you don't really have a historical protection to at least some of these rifles when a house of ill-repute may have one... but I guess that is where the collector comes in, but I would love to have had an act to "act on" to stop Obama from banning Garands "our rifles" from being re imported onto our shores..
But all that being said....man what I wouldn't give for one of those "1960 Camaros" :icon_biggrin:...you know the one with wings and cat's eyes tail lights:bash:

cfish

04-16-2011, 06:08 PM

This thread reminds me of the plight of the WWII fighter planes. In the 1960s as air races (Reno) became very popular the men that owned these birds and bought up many of the surplus birds, started chopping them up and modifying them to fly faster and faster. In the process of trying to make them faster and better greatly diminished the supply of these now extremely rare birds. At one point after the Korean war a P51 Mustang sold for 5000.00 dollars. Thats right 5000.00 dollars. They now command 1.5 to 2 million depending on their condition. Only thing is there are only a handful left in the world. I guess there isn't much difference between the guns and these war birds!

kagans

04-17-2011, 08:46 AM

the fifth edition.... nice!

Perro Del Diablo

04-17-2011, 10:08 AM

Im new here so maybe I don't get this "bubba" thing, but from what I'm reading the sporterized 1917 Enfield my Mom has is a "bubba" rifle??? I figured it was a lighter, more accurate, better functioning (cock on opening now rather than closing) rifle that actually get USED rather than being the gun equivalent of a "trailer queen" that just sits in a safe. Its a damn fine rifle now, with a lot of its parts from the Williams catalog, to include sights that are far superior to the originals.

I have a 1918 Colt U.S. Vickers aircraft machine gun which was mounted to a biplane in ww1 and was used to bust German Zeppelin balloons out of the sky. Could have possibly even been used by the great WW1 American Ace Eddie Rickenbacker or by one of the members of his famous Flying Circus. You can see two of them mounted to Mr. Rickenbackers plane in this photo
http://browningmgs.com/Maxim/Photos_Vickers/EddieRickenbacker.jpg

surely it would have been much easier to shoot at the red baron if they were able to drill and tap the receiver to mount a rail to the top of it, and then attach a modern day Eotech to it. Heck, i got a 4 D cell maglite i could attach to the waterjacket, and a green laser with a pressure switch that i could attach to it and route the pressure pad to the spade grips.

When does it cross the line where somebody should stand up and smack me upside the head for damaging a piece of American history that can never be replaced?? I promise if i did do something silly like that, i would be labeled a "Bubba"

Would someone stand up and say "Hey Perro, you really shouldnt do that to such an expensive gun"?
Is it the cost of the firearm that makes people give pause to this kinda thing?? Is it OK to destroy history because the gun only cost you $69.00 from Big 5??
If it is money, then at what dollar figure is the line in the sand drawn when people stand up and say "You really shouldnt do that to that gun"

Or is it the amount of firearms on the marketplace that dictates when someone stands up and says "WHOA BUDDY - you REALLY shouldnt weld that turbothis rail to the top of that Mars CETME - there were less than 2000 of them ever brought into this country"?

The AR15 examples (varmint barrel on an AR), and the HK Clone rebuilds with turbothis rail welded on do not count in this thread, that is an entirely different topic all together (modifying CLONE firearms). Would you be willing to take a Transferable M16 with paperwork documenting that it was used in the TET Offensive and take the delta ring off of it, screw on a yankee hill free float tube in spectre length with a 10.5 inch barrel, and then kit it out with your grip pod, your rail covers, green laser, flashlight, can opener etc?? Or would you pause for a minute and think "MAN, this is a REAL piece of history - MAYBE i should leave the customizing to a clone"?

This book gives instruction on how to permanently modify firearms that were actually issued to troops, and actually used in war. M1 Garands that were drug through Guadalcanal. M1 Carbines that were frozen solid in Korea, Etc. Etc.

Where does it end?? Where does the line in the sand get drawn??

Obviously the Russian Mosin Nagants don't qualify because even though they may have been used at the siege of Stalingrad, i see tons of people making short barrel rifles with them for fun, making custom stocks for them, adding on the ATI kits, attaching rails by drilling and tapping crap, sanding the wood down to make them "purdy"

Where does the destruction of history come into play here??

the Airplanes are a fantastic example
When i first bought my Vickers i had entertained buying the aircraft to mount it to. I was working alot of overtime, and well i cant lie i entertained buying a kit. I don't think a single person on earth would object to modifying a replica like this
http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/nieuport28%7Bfullscale%7D.html
but who here would take a real Neuport 28 and change out the avionics package to something more modern so it's no longer a hanger queen that doesnt get flown much, and modify the flight controls so it handles better??

Think of me what you like, i know im strongly opinionated, and generally just a big Ahole, but my opinion stands!! BUBBA SUCKS!!

(http://browningmgs.com/Maxim/Photos_Vickers/EddieRickenbacker.jpg)

Girth

04-17-2011, 04:23 PM

Sorry I guess I just don't get it. My way of thinking is if it doesnt get USED (fired/driven/flown whatever) then it isnt truly being appreciated. Sometimes things need to be updated a bit to make them useful. I would guess most guys use modern lubricants on their guns....no matter how old they are.

As far as the Neuport 28, if you wanted to fly over my house, they yes you would HAVE to update your avionics a bit since Im inside the Mode C veil. Nothing drastic though.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate original, unmolested pieces of history, especially old aircraft. To me though, the only thing worse than a heavily modified aircraft is one that never flys. The Boeing Stratoliner for instance. Only one left and its a shame it has be fully restored (again) to be left sitting in the Smithsonian. I want to see it FLY!

And yes, I would make fun of you if you put an Eotech on your Vickers. ;) Theres updating to make useful, then absolutely defacing something. That and Im a fan of iron sights.

Perro Del Diablo

04-17-2011, 07:07 PM

the funny thing about 99% of the firearms that get "modified" is that they all worked just fine before they were modified.

I own a 1941 Johnson SAR, and when i bought it, it had been molested by Bubba.
Seems Bubba wanted a wood pistol grip stock instead of the standard military stock so he cut off the military pistol grip area of the stock, and glued on a chunk of wood, and then form fit it with finger grooves, and other hi speed feel good swells to make it feel nice when you held it. To do this he had to unbolt the metal trigger guard and break out his demil tool / die grinder of some sort and hack off the front of the trigger guard so his pistol grip would fit. Then he put some stain on the entire stock and then polyurethaned the stock.
Luckily for me i was able to find a new stock in its original shape, and LUCKILY gunparts corporation still had a trigger guard for the Johnson so i got EXTREMELY lucky.

wanna know something weird?? That gun works just fine in its original military configuration

I understand wanting to use something - not having a biplane to mount my Vickers on i make do by mounting it to a ground tripod and bolting a set of ground gun parts to it so i can shoot it occasionally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whsU2VjZk5M

luckily this is easily accomplished swith no permanent modifications made to the gun. Most of the crap that they add to these guns are not required, and they make "no gunsmith" solutions for most classic firearms that keep you from harming anything.

I have been sitting on a fluted ground gun parts kit for a few years now. I would love to be able to replace the air cooled jacket with a watercooled jacket that holds water so i can seriously shoot the thing and not worry about harming the barrels from the heat, but the second i do that it is no longer a Colt made U.S. Vickers gun originally mounted to a biplane in ww1, and the part of me who cares about history will not allow me to add the waterjacket to it because it will destroy an original unmolested C&R machine gun made in the U.S. by Colt in Hartford in 1918

And mounting an eotech is no different than mounting a williams peep sight to an Enfield rifle - gun still shoots the same as it did before you mounted the sight to it, you just get a different sight picture once the sight is zeroed. As mentioned in the very first post in this thread, i saw a guy who took a washing machine leg and worm gear clamped it to the receiver ring of a nazi mauser, and he could hit anything he aimed at with repeated accuracy. Guns accuracy didnt change when he added the washing machine rear sight, just the sight picture. What DID change was the fact that the firearm was an unmodified piece of ww2 history.
Gun had the mauser rear sight removed, and then the receiver was drilled and tapped for a scope which broke, so then the owner hose clamped a washing machine leg to the rifle for a rear sight.

don't make me bust out the "Bubba Capture K98" pics again :D

sure - everyone has different ideas about where the line in the sand is drawn - my line is drawn quite a bit closer than most it seems, but then again i care about history, and i have met MANY people involved in my hobby who could not care any less about history, they just want a CHEAP firearm that they can molest to satisfy there primal urge to swing a hammer.

cfish

04-17-2011, 10:37 PM

I have to agree with Perro on this one. As I was at the Seymor Johnson Airforce base airshow today. I was there with a club I belong to. Its called the North Carolina military vehicle preservation association. We had 15 vehilces there today on static display right next to an Apache helo. I sat with my son and watched as Crazy Horse, a restored P51 Mustang took to the skies and made my day.My all time favorite bird and One I will fly before I die. During the show they did the generations fly by where the P51, F4 phantom, A-10 warthog and the F15e strike eagle did their fly by and flight routine. I actually thought about this thread and realised something. Why do we keep building better and better planes and guns. Because we can and we keep pushing the limits of our knowledge. The idea of destroying or defacing history to make the old more like the new made me think, why not just buy the new and preserve the old. Why bubba a rifle to make it like the modern rifles out there? Why butcher an aircraft to make it almost as fast as a modern aircraft? To me it doesn't make sense. Let the new do what it does and keep the old old to remind us of where we were and where we are today. Want to shoot tight groups, then buy a model 700 rem, want to fly fast then build a high tech carbon fiber wonder bird that can smoke an old war horse.
Just my .02 for what its worth!

Perro Del Diablo

04-18-2011, 12:14 AM

break out the eye bleach boys, i will never waste an opportunity to show the "Bubba Capture K98" :D

BAD BUBBA!!!! BAD!!!!

hunter_la5

04-18-2011, 12:22 AM

Gah!!!! Not the hose clamps again!!! :eek:

okie shooter

04-18-2011, 03:47 PM

I guess these things were declared national treasures, this would not be an issue. But alas rifles are considered comodies and not treasures, bought and sold by the ton and pallet, not by their value to collectors.

As for battlefield trophies and such, if it wernt for bubbas doing such things, the remaining rifles would be worth far less than they are.

I dont want to see these rifles converted but in the day when a maker could buy 10 rifles or more per 100 bucks, convert and restock, then sell them for a nice profit, cutting in half the cost of building new, this made plain sense to most folks in the day. I have a 03 converted springfield that in the day with a us made scope sold for less than a hundred bucks. Yes I cry but my father took a great many deer with that rifle in the sixties and seventies.

Now with rifles so inexpensive, to convert military rifles doesnt make much sense to me but folks will still do it. I can get a new scoped rifle for under three, and a used one for fifty to sixty less thus why buy or do a conversion IMHO.

On the other hand, you own it, its yours thus you are free to do with it what you want. Just makes me sad too.

bladeworks123

04-18-2011, 10:08 PM

Dang Perro!!! Please don't post that again....I LMAO every time I see that.
Now that,,,,, is the true definition of Bubba. He couldn't even buy new hose clamps

Perro Del Diablo

04-18-2011, 10:17 PM

he told me he was a sheet metal worker - i had to laugh at that, but it makes since i guess, he is used to banging tin all day hanging hvac duct and none of that requires much precision.

he could nail whatever he was aiming at with it though so who am i to say anything. we were at Boulder City rifle range and he was nailing swinging steel sillouette targets from 100-400 yards all day long without fail. I was amazed at how well he shot it.

Buddymack

04-18-2011, 11:08 PM

Perro Del Diablo

04-19-2011, 12:13 PM

WOW so this was actually for real???

everything i have said in this thread is 200% for real

here are pics of the stock that was on my 1941 Johnson SAR when i bought it, and what it should look like to further backup my claim that BUBBA SUCKS!!

i got REALLY lucky in finding a stock and trigger guard - parts for 1941 Johnsons are not easy to find!!

Girth

04-19-2011, 10:56 PM

Perro Del Diablo

04-20-2011, 02:12 PM

Perro, I apologize. I was being a PITA for no apparent reason it seems. What I SHOULD have said is when I choose to modify something....I buy a replacement part and modify THAT, or a whole new part to replace the original. Those pictures you posted are not what I would call "bubba". Those are CRIMINAL!

No need to appologize Girth, i respect your opinion, and everyone elses too. I may not agree with every single opinion posted, but i understand and respect the fact that other people may not agree with me.
I also completely understand that sporterizing firearms was common in the 50s and 60s, and i understand the reasoning behind why they were sporterized at the time.

I do not have a problem with people modifying clones.
you want to modify a springfield armory M1a, an AR15, an Universal carbine, or a Century CETME then you arent harming history.

also don't have problems with you doing non permanent mods like adding one of the "no gunsmith" mounts

but the second you start changing stuff permanently to fireams that have some history behind them then i have a problem with it.

this drives me NUTS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-9sPbk36O8&feature=relmfu

sorry if this is one of you here, but this guy trys to rationalize destroying
a piece of history simply because it was arsenal refurbished, are dime a dozen, and probably will never dry up.

Well, duh!!!!! the thing has been through a rebuild program which means it most definately saw service during ww2. Ever seen enema at the gates where one guy was handed a rifle, and one guy was handed some ammo. If the Mosin was made in a wartime year, then it was used in World War 2, and if it was rebuilt at one time, what does that tell you??

so since it has been through the rebuild process lets permanently damage the firearm to make something that most likely wont be anywhere near as accurate as an out of the box Savage, or Remington 700

why?? Because we can??

sure they made millions of the Mosin Nagants - sure they are dime a dozen.......... RIGHT NOW
they made millions of M1 Garands too
they made millions of Springield 03s
They made millions of Enfield 1917s

These rifles were READILY available in the 50s, and 60s and Bubba went to work, but how available are 1917 Enfields now?? Seen a huge surplus of them at J&G sales for $89.00 lately??, what about Garands, and Springfields?? Short of the CMP are they readily available??

right now Mosin Nagants are readily available and Bubba is hard at work modifying these at an alarming rate, and for what??
I would bet a dollar that you could go buy a cheap Savage and have a better rifle out of the box and spend less money for what you really want. and in the long run you havent taken one of the rifles out of the good pile and stuck it into the bubbad category

If that doesnt make sense to you, and you want to do it just because you can, your primal urge to swing a hammer is kicking in, so go buy an AR15 and customize to your hearts desire, or go get a Universal M1 Carbine, or a Springfield Armory M1 Garand, or go get a Rock Island Armory 1911 and a camouflage kit from Lauer Custom Weaponry and spray paint it fluorescent green and pink camouflage with hello kitty stickers on it for your old lady

but if you do it to a collectable firearm expect me to ride your ass about it :wink:

M1Marksman

04-22-2011, 05:28 AM

Tell us how you REALLY feel, Perro.

I was especially impressed with the Gorilla Glue buttpad adhesion tactic on the Mauser...BRILLIANT!:eek:

I inherited a Turkish Mauser from my cousin that he took in on a trade. It had been professionally rebarrelled to .30-06, but was fitted with a Monte Carlo stock that Bubba wasn't quite sure how to install. It was also d&t'd for a scope mount & had a Tasco 3-9x40 scope on it. After my cousin glass-bedded the action & straightened/ floated the barrel, it was a tack-driver at 200 yards. Man, was it ugly, though. I traded it for a portable generator. At least now I can keep my beer cold during a power outage...

Agree with modifying newer weapons as opposed to older/historical ones. I have an AR & a Cetme to play with, although the Cetme won't change too much (not that it hasn't already been changed by Bubba Century). The AR is a Plum Crazy polymer lower with a Chiappa .22 flattop upper (for now) with a quick-release scope mount, backup sight in case the scope fails, etc. These things were made to be modified. Not that I'd modify an original SP-1...

My Garand on the other hand, shouldn't have been touched. Yes, Bubba had his way with her. She was an August 1943 Springfield that someone thought a D&T scope mount & bleached-out/varnished/reconfigured stock would work better on. Maybe she worked better for the guy hunting elk in Montana, I don't know. She was the first of many "rescues". A new stock & handguards were fitted by me, along with the missing stacking swivel & front sight. She looks alot better, but the receiver still has 4 tapped holes in the side. Battlescars from a battle lost WAY after the war was over. That's why she was only $200.

My model 1916 Spanish Mauser (still in original 7mm cal.) was also a rescue. Bubba cut down the stock just behind the rear band. In doing this, he cut through the cleaning rod which was still in the stock! There was no handguard or rear hg ring & as a topper, he reconfigured the front band with the bayonet lug to be a rear band by cutting off the bayo lug & hammering the crap out of it until it fit! Springfield Sporters solved the parts problem. She looks alot better now. Another cheap one because of the modifications...$50.

My Pattern 1914 is another example. Cut-down stock, missing parts. All good now.

I'd never hack on a Mosin, even if they were a dime a dozen. I almost rescued a few that were Bubbaed, but realized that some were already too far gone. The ones I do own are either original or refinished, not customized. I don't plan on refinishing my Spanish Civil War Mosin anytime soon, even though she looks like she could use a touch-up.

Cars...

Yes, I've modified a few in my day. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have. That's how hotrods came about. Sure, they were destroying original Model T's, Model A's, etc. But some cool cars emerged from the post-war years. A few years ago, I sold my 1967 Impala convertible which I had semi-restored. I used aftermarket interior parts & quarterpanels, but that was it. Everything else came from junkyards & classified ads around the midwest. The engine was a 1979 350 engine out of a truck, the heads were 1990 marine heads & I added a set of dual exhaust myself. Kept it on the cheap. She looked good, ran good, but was no longer original. I enjoyed her. Now I'm in the process of restoring my 1965 Chevy pickup. Hopefully I can buy a cab this weekend from a recent contact. She was mildly modified a couple times, but I've seen the error of my ways.

This may have been my longest post to date.

BTW, UGH! on that Johnson stock!

mitchstoner

05-02-2011, 12:33 AM

I wouldn't chop up an Arisaka. But I've bought one that was sporterized, probably in the 60's. Haven't seen it yet, just pics, but it looks like a pro job and not a bubba.

It even appears to have scope bases welded on the receiver. Not going to be something I can restore. Why did I buy it?

Cause it was CHEAP. And interesting to hang up beside my pair of original Arisakas. And since it is rebarrelled in .308, I may even hunt with it.

Perro Del Diablo

05-02-2011, 10:40 AM

I could be wrong, but i think my old forum Cetmerifles.com was the first ever internet gun forum with a section dedicated strictly to showing bubbas sins, and making fun of bubba.

When i originally wrote the bubba rules, there was a section in there that stated that if you absolutely had to destroy a piece of history by hacking on it, then you needed to buy one that had already been permanently modified by bubba, and work on that one, for that canvas had already been ruined, and you wouldnt be harming anything that wasn't already tainted.

you also get extra points for taking a bubbad rifle, and restoring it to its correct military configuration.

if i was absolutely intent on hunting deer with a modified Arisaka, instead of something commercially available and far better suited for hunting deer, then i would definately buy something already hacked on by bubba.
I have seen TONS of used hunting firearms for sale CHEAP - the great depression we are in has kicked up tons of good deals all over the place. i recently had a friend tell me he bought a browning a bolt with scope for $150.00 off of backpage, and i would bet anyone here a dollar that the Abolt will be more accurate than a sporterized Arisaka.

I recently bought a Lanchester Mk1 complete parts kit for $400.00 - a couple of years ago when i bought my transferable lanchester they couldnt be found for less than $1200.00 and some went as high as $1800.00

deals are out there for commercial hunting firearms, so there is no need to hack on a historically important firearm to make a "deer rifle", or a "truck gun"
the only reason to do this now is to satisfy your primal urge to swing a hammer or to make something unique "LOOK AT ME!!! LOOK AT ME!!!!!"

but, it has never been against the bubba rules to modify something that has already been destroyed by bubba

i would just like to help prevent Bubba from modifying any more from the good pile
just because you can, does NOT mean that you should!!

Perro Del Diablo

05-05-2011, 10:14 PM

I never said bubba can't modify his own property, just that in my opinion, he shouldnt.
I understand people won't always agree and that is ok also.

But it doesn't change the fact that in my opinion, bubba sucks!!!!!
Most of the time, bubba is a hack. I don't know what it is about the gun community, but I've seen more people buy a gun, and then all of a sudden, they are gunsmiths, and out comes the demil tool for modification. I've seen more destroyed collectable firearms than you could possibly imagine, and I think they should regulate the purchase of jb weld, and demil tools

Remind me to someday show you what not to do to with jbweld!!!

Bubba SUCKS!!!
but that is just my educated opinion

Perro Del Diablo

05-06-2011, 01:52 PM

Taken to an extreme, wouldn't "restoring" a fine collectible custom arm made by a famous maker of the 50's to it's original $200 condition be just as much a crime as what was done to that Johnson?

lets talk about Winfield Arms sporterized 1941 Johnson SARS
Winfield arms took several 41 JSARs and sporterized them with ramped sights, sporter wood, and polished them and blued them to make sporter guns in the 50s, and 60s
http://www.johnsonautomatics.com/winfield.htm

i can tell you without a DOUBT that if i was to buy a Winfield arms sporterized 41 Johnson SAR and it was restorable to original military condition by replacing some parts and reparkerizing it i DEFINATELY would restore it, because ONLY the original military condition Johnsons sell. Nobody wants a sporterized Winfield JSAR if they can find a original military configuration one even though Winfield Arms did great work on them.

another company by the name of Miltech arms bought several Winfield Johnsons, refinishes them and restores them to military configuration and sells them.
http://www.miltecharms.com/rifles.htm
wonder why they just dont sell them as is in sporterized condition?? Winfield Arms did a great quality job on them.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=225385777
hey, HE TRADES!!! Wonder why it has sat on gunbroker so long?? Its obvious its a FINE example. the bluing looks wonderful, and this is the model with all the good features including the scope. Wonder why its not selling at the same price an unmolested one in similar condition would sell for in a matter of days, if not minutes. Heck, SOME of the unmolested originals ive seen sell in REALLY nice condition have been in the 6k range.

back to cars

lets say you bought a 69 Chevelle SS and you spent a GRIP of cash on it adding aftermarket chrome everywhere, adding a blower to the motor, cutting the hood to install a hood scoop, cutting the floorboard and adding tubs to put a 9 inch rear end under it, and just generally hotrodding it.

think that it will fetch more money hot roded like that or do you think you could get more money for it in its original condition at a Barrett Jackson auction?? There is a reason you will get VERY little money out of all the hot rod modifications done to the car when you try to sell it. MOST people out there are not in the market for a molested example. You are going to have an IMPOSSIBLE time getting the same amount of cash out of your modified example that an original unmolested example will bring.

maybe a Nazi mauser will not currently fetch the same cash that an Ackley modified one will bring because there is a large supply of Nazi Mausers on the market with the importation of the russian captures, but eventually it will become where the unmolested original Nazi Mauser will fetch more than the sporterized one.

If you want a fine rifle with a highly polished blue finish, and mirror depth glossy fancy figured wood, then what you want is a Weatherby, not a Nazi Mauser.

once again, my opinions only

Perro Del Diablo

05-06-2011, 09:03 PM

HUH????

It appears you are getting angry and i dont understand why??
Im trying to debate the merits of sporterizing firearms with you, and i was always told that if you are going to debate people with intelligent conversation to back it up with clear examples supporting your side of the debate, and that is all im trying to do here.

Im NOT arguing with anybody if that is what you think???

It IS pointless to argue this because i doubt anyone is going to change there opinion about this overnight, but im not trying to argue - simply debate.

i was trying to show you how sporterizing a collectable military firearm is not necessarily desireable and i was using the Winfield JSAR as an example - read my above post further, i went on to talk about an Ackley modified mauser

RandyCOG3

05-06-2011, 09:15 PM

There is a LOT of point to this... and everyone's opinion MATTERS, because most of the people that did this work aren't here to argue the point any more. And, eventually, WE won't be here, anymore, either, but we can leave our opinions for the Google spiders to seek out and record the many, many things that there won't be room for on our tombstones (I want to be cremated, BTW).

Let me change Perro's example to a 1964 1/2 Mustang that had been extensively modified. Small block V8, 4 speed, 4bbl. Generally, a hideous crime for which people would go to jail to avenge.
BUT, if it was C. Shelby's personal car, that he personally specified the mods... THAT car would/should bring a premium far over and above what it would bring if restored to "showroom new".
Shelby's still alive, AFAIK, and after he kicks the bucket, everything he touched will go up, up, up.

Old oil paintings have been found to have "better" paintings underneath, that people who NOW are famous thought were crap, and painted over. It would probably take MILLIONS of dollars for
some self-appointed "expert" to restore those world-class paintings to their former, crappy existence.

If somebody believes passionately enough about something, anything... and spends time to try to explain his/her POV to another person...w/o resorting to personal smears, or ridicule, etc...
that's a person that I'd enjoy having a drink with. The other side of the coin is that that person had best be prepared for MY opinion. If somebody demands that I admit that the sky is actually
green, or that Little Green Men have probed him in inappropriate ways, THEN I can walk away. Sometimes, though, even krazy people are right. I know, I've got that krazy gene in my gene-pool

RandyCOG3

RandyCOG3

05-06-2011, 09:53 PM

What can I say, working nights makes me grumpy :D

My point is simply that one cannot toss all guys who modify milsurps into the same bin as Bubba. Some sporterizers gained historical significance by doing such a good job at it.

From this point of view, bringing up companies like Winfield is just clouding the issue with a red herring, their work hasn't historical significance.

NOTE TO TANKER: Clicking on the "Multi Quote this message" button turns on a check mark...and does nothing else.

Agreed: You're 100% correct, you CAN'T paint everybody with a Bubba paintbrush because they modded something...
Agreed: Some things DO have significance that they would otherwise not have gotten, BECAUSE of the fact that that person eventually got recognized.

Nobody will ever argue that Bubba put plenty of meat on the table during lean times. Bubba exists for a reason, it's only when Bubba forgets that, that
things get out of hand.

RandyCOG3

holescreek

05-06-2011, 10:12 PM

I have to admit up front to not reading this thread through word for word, I hopped through the middle. In the end it all comes down to quality. All of the famous names mentioned produced quality work. More than likely they didn't always, especially when they were learning. Everyone who is starting out begins with the cheapest source of parts avaialble regardless of medium, be it art, cars, guns or whatever. Classic cars and classic guns weren't classic when they were young, they got classic because their are so few good examples left. The few masters of their craft left a lot of chaos behind them that doesn't get talked about. The wanabee's gave up too soon or just got bored and moved on to something else.

We all know, and may actually be, Bubba, when we venture outside of our area of expertise and venture into someone else's. Few of us have gone to gunsmithing school, but we all like to work on guns. In 60 more years when the Cetme C's are all gone we will be seen as the bubba's of our time hacking and whacking and welding away.

Perro Del Diablo

05-06-2011, 11:29 PM

My point is simply that one cannot toss all guys who modify milsurps into the same bin as Bubba.
In my understanding of the term Bubba, it means anybody who works on guns no matter the quality.
Bob "Bubba" Naess of Black River Militaria is noted for doing great work on rewatting old historical machine guns. I would not put him in the same pay grade as the bubba who modified my Johnson stock of course, but Bubba he still is and he likes the term so much it is his nickname :)

Some sporterizers gained historical significance by doing such a good job at it.
From this point of view, bringing up companies like Winfield is just clouding the issue with a red herring, their work hasn't historical significance.
This may be where some of our misunderstanding comes from. I consider the term Bubba to mean anyone who wrenches on guns no matter the quality. It appears your idea of the term bubba means only the ones who do poor quality work, and my understanding of it is it means anyone who wrenches on guns.

Let me change Perro's example to a 1964 1/2 Mustang that had been extensively modified. Small block V8, 4 speed, 4bbl. Generally, a hideous crime for which people would go to jail to avenge.
BUT, if it was C. Shelby's personal car, that he personally specified the mods... THAT car would/should bring a premium far over and above what it would bring if restored to "showroom new".
Shelby's still alive, AFAIK, and after he kicks the bucket, everything he touched will go up, up, up.

Factory produced special editions do not count in my opinion
I'm going to go back to my Johnson JSAR as an example because it is one im familiar with.

After the war - after the Garand won the contract for our service rifle, Captain Melvin M Johnson would build you anything you wanted using his JSAR as a canvas. Those items were modified by someone at the actual factory, or closely associated with the company and are special editions. Those JSARs are EXTRA valuable.

I see the Yenko Camaros, Hurst Oldsmobiles, and Shelby type classic cars in that type of light cause they had ties to the company.

they got classic because their are so few good examples left
EXACTLY the point i was trying to make with the Johnson.
this is why a finely sporterized Johnson is NOT desireable because there are so few of the original examples left
Maybe a Nazi Mauser is not as desireable as an Ackley modified one because there are a BUNCH of Nazi Mausers currently, but what if there were only 10,000 TOTAL Nazi Mausers that were EVER imported - would the Ackley Mauser be as desireable or expensive as an unmolested original?

We all know, and may actually be, Bubba, when we venture outside of our area of expertise and venture into someone else's. Few of us have gone to gunsmithing school, but we all like to work on guns. In 60 more years when the Cetme C's are all gone we will be seen as the bubba's of our time hacking and whacking and welding away.
Everyone is free to hack and whack away at there Century CETME rifles, and im not certain it would make a bit of difference because they are clones, but would anyone here in there right mind take a Mars Import CETME Modelo S and start welding rails to it??

clones are exempt - hack away
its the guns that are actual war veterans that i take issue with

M1 carbines should NOT have a 4 rail handguard installed to them, and have a rail welded to the receiver for a red dot sight - you want that, buy a universal or other such clone
M1 Garands should NOT be cut down to tanker size, rechambered to .308 and converted to mag feed - you want that, buy a M14, or the Beretta BM59
1903 Springfields should NOT be drilled and tapped for a leupold and made into a deer rifle - buy a savage, or browning, or remington
1917 dated Colt 1911s should NOT be nickel plated with gold accents, night sights and cheap new orleans whore house pearl grips installed to it - get a Taurus

these firearms were drug through the swamps of Guadalcanal and used to help keep our country free. ALOT of good men died carrying these firearms, and that should be preserved for future generations to appreciate

that is how i see it anyway.

Bubba SUCKS :P

i will post what NOT to do with JB Weld tomorrow, but i have to get permission to show it first