Dumb NFA Question - Lower Receiver Pin

[I_Am_Oz]

I tried to warn y'all. I'm a noob and will be asking noob questions that I can't answer with some searches.

Here goes:

I 'get it' that many of the NFA rules don't make much sense. But they usually have roots in some kind of logic, be it far-fetched in some cases.

As I look into 'clipping and pinning' my lower receiver/trigger groups I'm struck by one thing that doesn't seem to make any sense.

Is it really illegal to have the front of a lower receiver pinned through that front pin hole? Fine, I'll weld the semi-shelf on there... I 'get' that. But why on EARTH can't you drill a hole through the shelf and put a pin through it? I'm mean, EPOXY AND SILVER SOLDER the pin ends to make it LOOK like there's a pin? REALLY?

Pulling that take-down pin and letting it swing would be SO much nicer than dropping it. If someone can help explain what some ATF/NFA employee was thinking, that would be cool.

Thanks,
Oz

[Perro Del Diablo]

this came along because they used to import HK41s with swing down lowers that had a semi auto fire control group in them, and the only thing somebody had to do was install a full auto pack into it and it was a machine gun. Back in the day full auto trigger packs were not easy to find so they were approved for import, but then once people started to realize just how easy it was to convert them they stopped importation of the guns until they changed it to the current configuration.

there is a large detailed write up about how it all went down on the hkpro info pages - grab a drink, its long

it wont take long imho for them to ban the MKE guns either because of the way that pin is

[19Charlie_84]

Not to thread hijack, but along the same lines of ATF logic: Constructive intent.

I know it as having a complete rifle or even a stripped AR lower AND a complete upper or just a barrel being less than 16" long. The idea is that you could put the shorter barrel on a non registered lower and have an illegal SBR.

My question is, how is it not "constructive intent" to own a >16" rifle or shotgun AND a hacksaw? That is the only tool you need to make an illegal SBR or SBS, albeit crappy, but it fits the deffinition.

[The Great 308]

Not to thread hijack, but along the same lines of ATF logic: Constructive intent.

I know it as having a complete rifle or even a stripped AR lower AND a complete upper or just a barrel being less than 16" long. The idea is that you could put the shorter barrel on a non registered lower and have an illegal SBR.

My question is, how is it not "constructive intent" to own a >16" rifle or shotgun AND a hacksaw? That is the only tool you need to make an illegal SBR or SBS, albeit crappy, but it fits the deffinition.

I understand what you are saying, but lets not give them any ideas. But seriously I think it comes down to the definitions of easily convertable and constructive intent.

An AR is like a lego set you would not need to permanently alter anything to convert the rifle to an SBR if you had a barrel that was shorter than 16". Then you could switch it back to the 16" version to store it. It is an attempt to make sure that people actually register their SBR and pay the tax stamp.

It is also constructive intent to have an HK butstock and a pistol such as an MP5 clone or HK91K clone before your SBR paper work is approved. The view is that you could easily put the stock in place by simply removing and reinstalling the push pins. They basicly don't want you to have parts lying around that would enable you to easily switch a weapon from a legal to an illeagal (or registered) configuration and back again until the registration is approved and in hand.

[jdowney]

On any other subject, "constructive intent" would simply be circumstantial evidence and one could never get convicted on it alone. Guns and drugs though.... the courts seem to default with the prosecution rather than the defendant. God help you if you have a postage scale and plastic baggies and the fixins for an MG.

[Lalvis]

Or just a reloader with a powder scale and something to put your components in!:nonono:

[I_Am_Oz]

I think this discussion is right along the lines of what I was asking. The history was helpful.

So... now that I understand the intent, is it possible to machine a custom shelf with a space/area for the paddle release that also has room for a c-clip that could hold a 1/3-length pin? The other side would still need to have a sliver soldered or epoxy'd pin, but at least the lower would swing.

I figure that this would not create a hole all the way through and it would actually make the lower unique to that receivers semi-shelf. In other words, that lower wouldn't fit _any_ other standard HK upper receiver. But any other 'regular' clipped/pinned lower should fit the upper.

[19Charlie_84]

The faux pin on each side is absolutely cosmetic. If you want a paddle mag release you do not have to have the soldered pin parts all over the place. You do need to have the shelf in place, drill through the left side (cocking handle side) and only a third the way through the right side (ejection port side). DO NOT drill all the way thru, even a pin hole, the right side. That constitutes a machine gun and once an MG, always an MG. Illegal MG at that. I have a tutorial with pics and measure ments in a word .doc if you want. PM me your email. I think it talks about putting the cut off pin and spring on the right side, but agian you dont have to do it. When I get back from Iraq I have a PTR91 and a C93 that are getting paddle mag releases without the pin nonsense.

Robert at RTG (a forum member) has all the parts you need on his web store (when in stock of course).

[I_Am_Oz]

19Charlie_84, you ROCK! That's _exactly_ what I was talking about. I'll PM you my email address and would very much appreciate the word doc you have.

I have a CETME and a G3 which will both receive this treatment. The RobertRTG website is already bookmarked as a necessity.

Thanks again for offering up your documentation. As my builds go, I'll make sure to credit you with the info on how to do this.

Take care and be safe over there.

Oz

[The Great 308]

I think this discussion is right along the lines of what I was asking. The history was helpful.

So... now that I understand the intent, is it possible to machine a custom shelf with a space/area for the paddle release that also has room for a c-clip that could hold a 1/3-length pin? The other side would still need to have a sliver soldered or epoxy'd pin, but at least the lower would swing.

I figure that this would not create a hole all the way through and it would actually make the lower unique to that receivers semi-shelf. In other words, that lower wouldn't fit _any_ other standard HK upper receiver. But any other 'regular' clipped/pinned lower should fit the upper.

No. If I understand what you are asking correctly. To my knowledge there is no way to leagally install any type of swing down lower on a 9x series HK. It would be considered an illegal machine gun even if it is semi only. The only exception is a fully transferable machine gun with the proper paper work and tax stamps.

The only other exceptions would be one of the early imported Santa fe HK 91s or Mars Cetmes.

Otherwise you would need to come up with a design and send it off to the ATF for approval. I really think if it could be done some HK smith would have figured it out by now.

[I_Am_Oz]

[/COLOR]

No. If I understand what you are asking correctly. To my knowledge there is no way to leagally install any type of swing down lower on a 9x series HK. It would be considered an illegal machine gun even if it is semi only. The only exception is a fully transferable machine gun with the proper paper work and tax stamps.

The only other exceptions would be one of the early imported Santa fe HK 91s or Mars Cetmes.

Otherwise you would need to come up with a design and send it off to the ATF for approval. I really think if it could be done some HK smith would have figured it out by now.

If the lower assembly/grip drops on the ground it's fine, but if it pivots/swings down it's a "machine gun" -according to the ATF. Wow.

[RandyCOG3]

If the lower assembly/grip drops on the ground it's fine, but if it pivots/swings down it's a "machine gun" -according to the ATF. Wow.

This is a much more liberal viewpoint than their former stance that shoestrings are machineguns. They ultimately rescinded that opinion.
But they were serious when they made that determination. Somebody discovered a way to wrap a shoestring around a particular firearm in such a way that, if you pulled on the free end of the shoestring, it would result in full-auto fire. And, since BATFE says that anything that can make a weapon FA is, in fact, a FA weapon itself, possession of a shoestring could, in theory, get you 5 years in Club Fed, and, whereas shoes often come in pairs, one might have been looking at 10. God forbid they got a warrant and searched your closet.

RandyCOG3

[I_Am_Oz]

This is a much more liberal viewpoint than their former stance that shoestrings are machineguns. They ultimately rescinded that opinion.
But they were serious when they made that determination. Somebody discovered a way to wrap a shoestring around a particular firearm in such a way that, if you pulled on the free end of the shoestring, it would result in full-auto fire. And, since BATFE says that anything that can make a weapon FA is, in fact, a FA weapon itself, possession of a shoestring could, in theory, get you 5 years in Club Fed, and, whereas shoes often come in pairs, one might have been looking at 10. God forbid they got a warrant and searched your closet.

That is so unbelievable that it's believable. If you own that particular firearm, you're only allowed to own shoes that fasten with Velcro :icon_confused: Can you imagine the horror if you accidentally wore your favorite hoodie with a string through it when you go shoot? :nonono:

But even THAT is more understandable that this. The act of attaching your lower via a pin doesn't in-itself make it a machine gun.

[RandyCOG3]

That is so unbelievable that it's believable. If you own that particular firearm, you're only allowed to own shoes that fasten with Velcro :icon_confused: Can you imagine the horror if you accidentally wore your favorite hoodie with a string through it when you go shoot? :nonono:

But even THAT is more understandable that this. The act of attaching your lower via a pin doesn't in-itself make it a machine gun.

I am not-at-all certain the the folks that determined that shoestrings are FA weapons actually distinguished between people that owned that firearm, and people that just owned shoes, or owned other firearms. If you've got an M2 receiver, you've got a machinegun, whether or not you own anything else made of metal, let alone an M1 Carbine, or M1 parts.

If you've got an AR lower that was made in such a way that a Drop In Auto Sear can "drop in", hooray for you. But, if you take your Dremel and make it so a DIAS can drop in, you've got an illegal FA weapon, unless you have a transferable DIAS, which is OK. But, if you remove the DIAS, then you've got TWO illegal FA weapons, to my understanding of the whole mess. But it's perfectly legal to have a lower that was "made to" accept a DIAS. I'm certainly no expert on anything, let alone the law or EBR's. YMMV.

RandyCOG3

[jdowney]

But even THAT is more understandable that this. The act of attaching your lower via a pin doesn't in-itself make it a machine gun.

I believe its only this family of designs where that rule applies. Don't FAL lowers pivot? And M-16/AR-15 lowers? Of course I don't own any of those, so I'm not as familiar with them.

I think the logic behind the rule is that there is one acceptable way to convert an FA lower from a cetme or G3 to a semi only lower. Part of that conversion involves modifying the trigger group to accommodate the shelf parts - so you can't then swap in an FA trigger group. That is part of what the goofy shelf is doing - taking up space.

From this point of view, that there is one and only one acceptable method for semi-conversion, the ATF doesn't see any need for another rule that allows a pinned lower, and therefore guns that accommodate pinned lowers are in the other category - machine guns.

[BattleBornArms]

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141%3Athe-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms&catid=4%3Aspecial-topics&Itemid=5


page 4 is particularly important to your question

[I_Am_Oz]

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141%3Athe-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms&catid=4%3Aspecial-topics&Itemid=5


page 4 is particularly important to your question

A great read, thanks for the link. I wrapped my head around 55% of that --first time through. When it's not so late, I'll need to read it all again.

At 55% comprehension, I'm still not sure if the element that the ATF uses to define a machine gun is:

A) A hole all the way through shelf (seems to be the most referred to element)
B) The fact that the trigger group is connected and pivots

It's it's purely item A) I might would pose a question to them.

Instead of a hole drilled through the shelf, could some shallow divots be placed on the left and right sides of the shelf and then snub/set screws go through the outside trigger group, providing a pivot?

Can you tell I asked a lot of questions and really annoyed my parents when I was a kid?

[I_Am_Oz]

I believe its only this family of designs where that rule applies. Don't FAL lowers pivot? And M-16/AR-15 lowers? Of course I don't own any of those, so I'm not as familiar with them.

I think the logic behind the rule is that there is one acceptable way to convert an FA lower from a cetme or G3 to a semi only lower. Part of that conversion involves modifying the trigger group to accommodate the shelf parts - so you can't then swap in an FA trigger group. That is part of what the goofy shelf is doing - taking up space.

From this point of view, that there is one and only one acceptable method for semi-conversion, the ATF doesn't see any need for another rule that allows a pinned lower, and therefore guns that accommodate pinned lowers are in the other category - machine guns.

I think you're probably right on. That makes the most "sense" of the situation. The AR's and FAL's DO pivot. Which is why this is annoying. When Gunny was shooting the FAL on Top Shot, he accidentally hit the takedown button and the whole thing pivoted open in his hands. He snapped it shut and continued (well, he actually did it a couple times). Had Top Shot chosen a semi-auto HK91 instead of the FAL, he would have been picking up parts off the ground. Well, okay. Not really, since the HK doesn't have a takedown button. That could very well be another reason they don't see a need for the HK to pivot.

[19Charlie_84]

It seems as though you want the lower to pivot so when you are disassembling the lower doesnt fall away on the floor as you stated. The ATF doesnt care if your stuff gets dinged up. ARs and FALs pivot, but that is thier design, you cant have an HK9x pivot because a feature of that area is where the FA pack fits. Nature of the beast and it sucks.

Whenever I take my HK style rifles apart, I always conciously do it close to a table surface or floor so nothing falls too far. Or hold the lower as you pull off the buttstock.

I seem to remember you cannot have an AR lower with a hole for the auto sear drilled, even if you do not have an auto sear, someone with more knowledge needs to confirm.

[mitchstoner]

When trying to "interpret" the meaning of various BATFE/congressional/etc. rules and regs pertaining to what consititures an illegal firearm, it's helpful to remember a couple of things:

A) The people writing the rules are frequently fanatics about gun bans, and they do not necessarily care if their rules make sense.

B) These same people are generally white collar types with NO knowledge of manufacturing, whether in a huge industrial facility or in a garage workshop.

Added together, these 2 characteristics will result in some pretty silly situations. Remember the assault weapon ban focused more on cosmetics than anything--Changing a separate pistol grip/buttstock to a thumbhole stock converted an Evil Assault Weapon to a Sporting Rifle. Etc... The people promoting these type of laws do not understand that the function of a mechanical device is not limited solely by cosmetic features, nor do they understand that simply changing the type of stock was a stupidly easy thing for the manufacturers to accomplish.

The 922(r) imported components rules are also the product of a simple lack of understanding of how easy it is to manufacture a piece of equipment or machinery. I suspect that the Libs' thinking ran along the lines of "well, there simply are no U.S. manufactured components for AK type rifles, so there NEVER WILL BE." They failed to understand how quick and easy U.S. firearms enthusiasts would come up with the fcg's, stock parts, flash suppressors, etc. to beat the rules.

But decisions/rules from the idiot libs who do not understand manufacturing can also run the other way: I once saw a quote from a search warrant, that specified "files and drill bits" as possible evidence that could indicate the possessor was intending, or capable of, manufacture of an illegal machine gun. Doesn't practically every one of us own files and drill bits?

The stuff we routinely do with tools is like alchemy to many white collar types. Remember, these are the kind of people who call an HVAC company to relight a pilot light, or take a push lawn mower to a shop to have the oil changed.

[The Great 308]

The stuff we routinely do with tools is like alchemy to many white collar types. Remember, these are the kind of people who call an HVAC company to relight a pilot light, or take a push lawn mower to a shop to have the oil changed.

LOL.... good points mitchstoner but I will have to disagree with the highlighted part of your statement since I am pretty sure these are the type of people that would simply pay someone else to cut the grass. :wink: :icon_biggrin:

[I_Am_Oz]

I'm pretty much "over this" by now. No biggie. I also found that the semi-shelf keeps the lower from swinging on a pivot anyway.

What's more interesting is what I found quoted in the build thread over on CalGuns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=274354)

"This takes away the ability of a semi-auto housing (with the ears cut off) to be able to mount on a full-auto receiver due to the lack of holes for the pivoting pin."

It appears that the BATFE doesn't want a semi-auto housing to be able to be used on a full-auto receiver. While it sill doesn't make a ton of sense, it makes slightly more sense. Keeping semi-auto and full-auto stuff completely non-interchangeable in any fashion or manner.

[lakeracer69]

It's kind of funny, but it takes more time and skill to make these things semi-auto than F/A. If you do the legal paddle mod you'll be happy. I need it just because I'm a lefty.

[I_Am_Oz]

I thought the same thing! Much more challenging to make 'em semi-auto. I'm not going to try to 2nd guess what they're thinking. That could drive you crazy.

I will be doing the paddle mod. I have the whole paddle assemblies fresh off the band saws ready to take apart and add to the project. I never considered that for lefty's, the paddle mod is pretty much a necessity for functional convenience!

[deth502]

ok, ill admit that i only read about half of the replies and got bored, lol

but ill throw in my .02

now, im not a lawyer, and this advice, if followed, could very well land you in prison, so dont go by my post, im just opining on the laws.

first, as was mentioned, there are legal ways to get your paddle mag release in there, so i think that kinda makes your original intent moot.

now... imo, YES, you can legally do that. well, kinda.....

imo, if you made a shelf that would not allow a f/a fcg to be installed, but yet still allowed the pin, it follows the intent of their laws. no "approval" would be needed, as was mentioned, if you are making the build for yourself. that is for manufacturers that plan on producing firearms, there is no law that necessitates a private builder sending any samples to the atf for "approval".

now, to the "kinda" part. even if you did fabricate this, by the design itself, even if the pin is in there, the protrusion that would still need to be in there to exclude the instillation of the f/a fcg would effectively stop the lower from "swinging free". the fcg would likey have to be pulled off straight back to release it. i dont see this making anything easier. at best, it would be mostly the same, at worst, you would run into clearance issues with the hammer and ejector sticking up when trying to slide it back to release it.

[dragon5126]

Having dealt with the boys of BATFE on a professional basis, let me add some insight.
First the background:
There are two types of full auto weapons, First is the sear.
Second is the receiver that is capable of safely firing in full auto.
With the family of firearms that is being discussed, the receiver CAN fall into the second group if capable of being able to take a full or burst able FCG.
To that ends the BATFE logic says put a block infront of the FCG and if that block is altered it is then no longer a semi auto. End of discussion.
They want it that plain and in black and white. You will even find some agents that will tell you that the simple paddle mag release mod is enough to remove it from the semi auto list and put it in the full auto catagory, they ARE that arbitrary. The question at hand is this, Is it really worth the headache at this point in time?