Rule out Bill Springfield for trigger work

[chill1955]

Hi Guys:
I am really P O'd right now. I just figured out why I was doubling, tripling and quadrupling with a trigger that had been to Bill TWICE and the first time I had emailed him macro photos of obvious file marks on the back of the sear disconnector piece. Well under the file marks there is a notch so the trigger doesn't hold it forward enough to restrain the hammer except randomly. Oddly enough the steel case brown bear would do it the least. One of my good friends does 10-22 triggers and he just finished my mini 14 and it is absolutely fantastic. So he is going to add mini's to his auction site. I ordered a new trigger group today from APEX and I'll go look for hammers and a new sear-disconnector arm, then I'll have David do the CETME trigger. Then I'm sure he'll add CETMEs to his site, so stay tuned. I'll post his auction site here in a couple of weeks after he does mine.
Good work is hard to find.
CHill

[bladeworks123]

:popcorn:

[holescreek]

I'd like to see the photos if you get an opportunity to post them. I've been doing my own triggers and researching some alternatives. It's always good to see what's out there.

[rep30cal]

WOW, I wonder what's up with that? I don't think I have ever read that someone was unhappy with Bill Springfield's work.

[ptrthgr8]

He's done the work on my CETME, two FALs, and one Garand and I've been nothing but absolutely pleased with the work.

It would seem to me that A) Bill's only human like the rest of us or, B) we're not reading the whole story. Nobody's perfect, but it also seems strange that this trigger is still not proper after having been to Bill twice now.

Whatever the issue, I hope that trigger work gets squared away for you.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[97th Signalman]

Bill did a job for me that doubled but he fixed it right away and it's been fine ever since.

[k98k792]

Anybody got Bill's Email address?

[Jagman]

Bill's work is still great as far as I am concerned, no problems at all with the stuff has done for me and the turn around time could not be beat, as far as your problem goes, lightening a trigger alway's runs the risk of repeating, that is why military triggers are heavy !!
Hopefully you give Bill a fair chance to check it out/remedy it if it is his work that caused the problem.
How light did you want the trigger?

[holescreek]

Anybody got Bill's Email address?

wspringfield@comcast.net

[k98k792]

Thanks Holescreek! Sent Bill an email about this,thought he should know.

[RandyCOG3]

He's done the work on my CETME, two FALs, and one Garand and I've been nothing but absolutely pleased with the work.

It would seem to me that A) Bill's only human like the rest of us or, B) we're not reading the whole story. Nobody's perfect, but it also seems strange that this trigger is still not proper after having been to Bill twice now.

Whatever the issue, I hope that trigger work gets squared away for you.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

I agree with all of the above, most particularly the part about getting the thing to run right for you.
I've never had any trigger work done by anybody...but I've pondered having him work on my CETME when the time is right,
because, up 'til now, I've never seen one bad word about his work, ever.
The "bottom line" is that, if you're not satisfied...and/or it doesn't work right... that's that.

My "best guess", though, is that we're talking about rifles that weren't exactly renowned for their tight-precision, close-tolerance
manufacturing, or the skills of the primates that assembled them. If somebody is going to grind a bolt to show false gap, you have
to wonder about the rest of the work. I'm only suggesting that, without the "whole rifle" in front of him...maybe things aren't as
apparent to the 'smith as they otherwise would be. Maybe like trying to fit a shoe to a foot, when you only know the rough idea o
f length and width, and not so much about the arch.

I'm not questioning anything here, just tossing out some questions and thoughts and suggestions. How sure are you that the file
marks were put there by him, and not by somebody at the factory, trying to make it run?

Again, I've got "no dog in this fight"...not pointing any fingers, or trying to let anybody "off the hook" for anything, either.

Hope it all works out, soon, for all parties involved.

RandyCOG3

[Perro Del Diablo]

Ive been in the CETME game for a very long time now - i bought my first one on Gunbroker just before the terrorists slammed 2 airplanes in the world trade center back in 2001 so almost 10 years now, and i remember several people having problems with there guns doubling or tripling after Bills trigger work. at least half a dozen - maybe closer to a dozen.

I always asked the people if they were accidentally bump firing the thing because the trigger was so light and the recoil of the 308 makes the gun bounce in the shoulder quite a bit, and i always asked them to stop trying to lightly pull the trigger, and to use only the very tip of there fingertip to pull the trigger instead of the joint in there index finger and i do not recall anyone ever saying the problem still existed when they werent trying to baby the trigger which always lead me to believe it was an issue of it being able to be bump fired easier with the lighter trigger.

anyway, i've never known him not to stand behind his work, so even though it may be inconvenient for you, send it to him one more time and let him make it right for you, because im certain that he WANTS to make it right, that is just the kind of guy i've known him to be.


I can also tell you that the CAI trigger parts are garbage, and i have known several people who have had there gun start doubling, and tripling out of nowhere, and it is because the soft cast junk metal trigger parts were just worn slap out to the point where the interruptor no longer held the hammer because the sear had worn down. I have seen this happen with parts that Bill never even touched, so right off the bat you are working with something that may be at issue all by itself before he ever even got ahold of them.


If it were me, i would send it back to Bill one more time, if that doesnt work, CAI sells the trigger parts seperately for a fair price to dealers. I have purchased a few over the years to help people fix there guns.

Good luck, i know it can be nerve wracking when something isnt working right!!

[bladeworks123]

I knew this was going to get interesting....I've never had Bill Springfield do any work for me, I was able to do my own for a long time before I heard of Bill Springfield. Because of that I know that what Perro says is true. There are some firearms/parts that are pretty hard to do anything to. There are some that are just not quality enough steel or poorly manufactured enough that there isn't enough tight tolerance to make a smooth and light trigger combination. There are some that were never intended to be worked over and probably shouldn't be. Although I've never had Mr. Springfield do any work for me, the mans reputation goes down the road in front of him, and I have heard very few people complain about him not doing his best and taking care of people. What I tell people is that I will work on their triggers for them as long as they are not depending on their life for the firearm to function correctly, every time. Trigger jobs are always a chance of loosing absolute function for the luxury of light and smooth trigger pull. I don't usually champion anybody elses cause, but I would tend to believe, based on the sheer numbers of satisfied folks, that Mr Springfield ran up against one of those patients he could just not do CPR on and save. And given the fact that it changes depending on what ammo you are shooting tells me it's not all in the trigger job as much as it is in the trigger design, trying to make it do something it wasn't designed to do. If Springfield worked on it twice, he made one more effort at fixing it than I would have. I have done what I thought was a good action job on several guns and had the trigger work fine on the bench, but it is pretty hard to inject recoil and action interface into one on the bench. I will not do action jobs on law enforcement officers guns for that reason. They are all kept at the factory manufacturer/engineers specs. so it is never going to be my fault that it didn't work right when it needed to. Sporting and target shooting arms are different. I say give Mr. Springfield another shot, I'm sure from what I've heard about him, that he will make it right if it was his fault.

[chill1955]

Thanks Holescreek! Sent Bill an email about this,thought he should know.

So did I trust me, and zero replies thus far and that's why I sent it to him because of his reputation on the web. I'll take pictures tomorrow and post. And for the poster who thinks they're not getting the "whole story", I would not say something that was untrue or partial truth, or anything like that. And I don't appreciate the inference.
CHill

[MTSNIPER]

Bill just squared the muzzle face and recrowned my Remington 700. He did very good work for me and I will use him again. Sorry your experience was bad.

[Perro Del Diablo]

yes, this design is not the greatest for trigger work for sure.
you can get the thing to double sometimes if one leg of the hammer spring isnt resting on the interuptor latch. The trigger pull is MUCH better with only 1 leg on the interuptor latch, but it will double much easier and that is not safe.

i made a set trigger years ago that took some of the pressure of the 2 legs of the spring off of the interruptor latch but i couldnt ever get it to work well enough so i gave up on it. It made the trigger pull WAY better without touching the surfaces, but WHOOEEE its scary when the thing is too light.

[chill1955]

I have the 3 photos I sent Bill in an email and now that I found the problem my photos with arrows pointing to what I thought were suspicious machine marks, I pointed right to the area so it's almost laughable. If some one would please explain how to post darn photos I would post them. Mine aren't located on the web, they're on my hard drive so the path would be like C:\documents\pictures\file name. I tried to cut and paste the path in the image line and it just posted it as text. Argh.
I bought a spare parts kit on an auction so I 'll learn all I ever wanted to know about the trigger assembly, so I guess I can thank him for that.
Chill

[Perro Del Diablo]

Chill,

in the upper right hand corner click on the link "settings"

then on the next screen look to the left under "my settings" and find the link that says "general settings" and click on that

then scroll all the way to the bottom and turn off the advanced attachment uploading feature
and then try to upload your pictures.

I cannot stand the new upload feature of the new software and much prefer the more simple old uploader - try it, it makes things easier

[Perro Del Diablo]

send the pics to perro@cetmerifles.com and i will host them for you

[ptrthgr8]

...And for the poster who thinks they're not getting the "whole story", I would not say something that was untrue or partial truth, or anything like that. And I don't appreciate the inference.

Relax, brother Chill. We're all friends here. All I was saying (not implying) was that there's more to the story than what we've read so far. (That's why I said "B) we're not reading the whole story.") For example - the info Perro posted about the trigger parts. I wasn't making an indictment about your character. If I thought you were a lying sack of pooh I would have said as much. :) ;)

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[drine]

Bill's reputation is stellar but that type of work has been known to cause doubling/tripling, etc and it has happened to Bill, too. Since these guns are in such various stages of wear any work to them can cause issues. Although you are not solicting opinions, get yourself one of Turbothis' hammer, trigger, sear sets. The have some adjustment to them and will be way better than original. I found (as others including Turbo) that Turbo's set can be made lighter with dropping one leg down to the pin. It has never fired more than one round this way. I believe with a spring making set one of my machinists friends could make the same hammer spring from scratch a bit lighter and leave that leg alone for insurance that the sear resets. I've not had the pleasure of shooting with Bill's work and for all of our sake I hope this is worked out mutually.

[bladeworks123]

yes, this design is not the greatest for trigger work for sure.
you can get the thing to double sometimes if one leg of the hammer spring isnt resting on the interuptor latch. The trigger pull is MUCH better with only 1 leg on the interuptor latch, but it will double much easier and that is not safe.

i made a set trigger years ago that took some of the pressure of the 2 legs of the spring off of the interruptor latch but i couldnt ever get it to work well enough so i gave up on it. It made the trigger pull WAY better without touching the surfaces, but WHOOEEE its scary when the thing is too light.

That's a good point about the hammer spring, even a weak hammer spring can be the cause and effect of doubling, especially if the trigger and hammer have been worked over to smooth out. Likewise, the advice of some about leaving the sear spring out can cause doubling in a worn hammer/trigger set up or if the trigger pin holes in the cage is a little loose. Another cause I've seen is not having the sear spring aligned correctly, it should be offset in a SA pack, one leg in and one leg out so it is centered against the trigger, without the FA sear in place after the conversion to SA the spring placement is important. unless you have bought one of the wider SA springs like RTG has.

[RandyCOG3]

Slight thread-drift:
I'll go ahead and say what goes w/o saying for many, but maybe not all: If YOUR weapon runs fine, for YOU, YOUR shooting style, and YOUR choice of ammo: Hooray!
But, it's a proven fact that, if somebody else borrows your weapon and something goes amok, YOU CAN go to PRISON, for X years, and the court can/will deny your
ability to bring in expert witnesses to testify that it's a known issue with that weapon and certain brands of ammo.

The same might hold true for the heirs of a deceased shooter that sold weapons from the estate, I'd surmise. So, I'd be careful of "tuning" something for myself, that
"could" go ape with a different shooter/style/ammo, that somebody else might get in trouble with.

RandyCOG3

[chill1955]

I'm gonna say this one more time. I sent d-i-g-t-a-l p-h-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-h-s of what I saw (novice to the trigger but not common sense) of what I saw as suspect hacking on the trigger assembly. AND a note stating price was no object to fix it PROPERLY. Now that I understand the physics of the moving parts, IT WAS A DEAD GIVE AWAY TO ANYBODY WITH ANY KNOWLEDGE of the trigger assembly! So all of the hyperbole of "well my job was awesome", I could care less about. I sent it back a second time and included additional funds not solicited by Bill to cover some of his cost. I believe he didn't do a dam thing to it and sent it back. As of today I have had no response, nor do I expect one, I believe I have found another solution so lets move on guys. My initial statement stands on my experience with this individual and I do NOT recommend his services for anything. If you wish to use him that is your choice. And I believe his silence speaks louder than any of his fans.
CHill

[FiremanFrank]

I had Bill Springfield do my Cetme awhile back and he did get it from 13+ pounds down to about 8 pounds. He did not want to go lower as he said that he has had trouble with some of them doubling at a lighter pull weight. It has now been to WTS and they have had problems with the very same trigger group as well. I think that Century Cetme parts are crap and it is hard for them to modify them reliably. It would be nice if they had an option to have the hammer and sear rehardened after their modifications to make them more reliable.

[k98k792]

I have received an email from Bill,he said he will respond to this tomorrow.

[bspring]

Different manufactured AR-15 receivers can vary the hammer/trigger pin holes in relation to each other...up/down and away from each other. Ones receiver's can vary quite a bit from the one I use, its a Tactical Innovations version with the replaceable SS bushings. The individual's trigger set did not "double" leaving the shop testing with with my receiver. His receiver must have variances much out side mine, I'm not saying his is out of spec or mine is. I have around 3500 AR trigger jobs with this receiver and I change out the bushings every 6-800 jobs done. Yes, the internal holes do open up taking pins in and out many, many times.

I offer a die hard guarantee, I can refund his money and send a new stock trigger set...or.. I can send a new complete worked drop in trigger set; or he can send his lower and I'll custom tune a new set to it.

Let me know what works best. Like any business, I can't rectify something if I don't know about it.
k98k792 was kind enough to inform me of this thread...thank you Sir.

Bill

[FiremanFrank]

That seems like a more than fair enough offer. Kudos to Bill.

[deth502]

ill throw in my .02, although im sure its going to piss someone off. ill start by saying that i have never had any work done by bill, i have no connection to him, and dont know him.

now, if it were me in this situation, the trigger group went back again, and it still wasnt right. would i be pissed?, hell yes. but, he is/has been offering a guarantee to make it right at no additional cost. the first thing that id realize is that its not easy making a functional firearm when you are only sending in one piece. seeing that he wouldnt be able to test fire it in my rifle would be one reason to be lenient on the whole thing.

my opinion on this whole thing, i think your being a bit too harsh on him, and frankly, reading the op, there seems to be an ulterior motive. you didnt like bills work, but you refuse him the opportunity to make it right, and then throw in that your "friend" offers the same work for sale, and that once he does your one gun, he will have enough experience on that platform to start offering his services for sale.

and as far as hiving "file marks" on the pieces, how exactly did you expect him to work on your trigger?

[holescreek]

I thought we were talking about a Cetme FCG.

[oldpaint0]

I thought we were talking about a Cetme FCG.

Yeah, me too.

[Milsurp]

Ok. Here's my .02 cents. We have now heard from both sides and and both gentlemen have had their say on the matter. I would suggest that we wait until a resoultion has been met or not by both parties through their emails or pm's and at that time they should update us about the outcome.

[chill1955]

ill throw in my .02, although im sure its going to piss someone off. ill start by saying that i have never had any work done by bill, i have no connection to him, and dont know him.

now, if it were me in this situation, the trigger group went back again, and it still wasnt right. would i be pissed?, hell yes. but, he is/has been offering a guarantee to make it right at no additional cost. the first thing that id realize is that its not easy making a functional firearm when you are only sending in one piece. seeing that he wouldnt be able to test fire it in my rifle would be one reason to be lenient on the whole thing.

my opinion on this whole thing, i think your being a bit too harsh on him, and frankly, reading the op, there seems to be an ulterior motive. you didnt like bills work, but you refuse him the opportunity to make it right, and then throw in that your "friend" offers the same work for sale, and that once he does your one gun, he will have enough experience on that platform to start offering his services for sale.

and as far as hiving "file marks" on the pieces, how exactly did you expect him to work on your trigger?

You obviously don't know what you're talking about Deth, and it's not my problem to "verify function", that's his job ain't it? I sent Bill an email before posting here and with a forum response about AR15 triggers?? I have no motives other than having a semi automatic rifle. The trigger is going to another shop, so spare me the drama please and you are neglecting all of the facts I have presented. My assessment stands. My friend does 10-22's, he did my mini14 and did an excellent job. He has elevated my understanding of trigger assemblies. He hasn't even looked at my Cetme, he wants to, but I'm sending it elsewhere because I want this behind me.
CHill

[k98k792]

Well,Bill has indicated he would stand behind his work, to repair the trigger group,and or, refund Chills money.
Though, he is confused as to the type of trigger group mentioned.

Chill has declined Bills offer,which is certainly his right. As it stands,there can be no resolution of this issue.

I'm going to close this thread,and I will reopen it,if there is any new,pertinent info on this dispute.So Chill and Bill,please PM me if if there is any movement on this issue between you.