View Full Version : Tomorrow: my first Cetme
Tomorrow I take delivery of my first Cetme. I went out today and bought a good gap gauge. I had thought I would take the gun to a smith to have it looked over, but I can check the gap myself. I've decided that this is a gun where I will do things myself as much as possible, especially with all of the resources and parts available.
I have a three day non-firing inspection period. Beyond the bolt gap, bore conditon and the obvious, what should I be looking for, especially things that could effect safety? Should a smith look the gun over?
Also, how often do you check the bolt gap?
The night's sleep before I pick up a new gun is always a lot of tossing and turning. I can't help it, but I'll be measuring that bolt gap over and over again in my sleep for hours! I'm especially excited about this Cetme.
hunter_la5
06-13-2007, 10:39 PM
I wouldnt worry about a gunsmith; the CETME uses a fairly unique system of operation that is alien to most gunsmiths. your guess is as good as theirs in many cases, so you'd be better off asking questions here and doing your own research
be sure to check bolt gap, cocking handle/bolt carrier tube clearance, check for canted sites, make sure that the bolt head is unground,
I check my bolt gap once every few range sessions, which is probably more often than necessary. I would check it every range session at first, just to make sure that the bolt gap has settled (if the gun hasnt been fire much since being built there is a break in period as the parts mate to eachother and gap may change drastically at first). but after you are sure that the gap has settled to a consistant measurment (after several cleanings/lots of hand-cycling), then you really dont need to check it that often until it gets low
once you get your rifle, CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. clean some more. after that, sit in front of the TV and hand cycle it all afternoon. this will help the parts "mate" to eachother and help break in the rifle
hope you got a good one. Once a CETME is fine tuned and running like it should, it is AWESOME. you'll see what I mean
If the gun is otherwise okay and the bolt head is ground is that a deal breaker, or can the bolt head be easily (and relatively inexpensively) replaced along with any rollers to bring the gap back ito spec? I would assume that there was a gap problem that would cause them to grind the bolt in the first place.
drine
06-13-2007, 11:07 PM
I'll bring all my spare parts to the range so you can see the more common areas that might need attention. Hunter has all the bases covered. Clean, clean, clean. The bolt gap may change if it's overly dirty. The cocking handle/carrier clearance is as about as important as anything. It can give false bolt gaps or crack your tube. Mine did! That clearance should be close to your boltgap. Without raising the handle up see if it presses back and forth some. You can eyeball it to see that you have some clearance at least.
Give a shout when you get the items Hunter noted done and the boltgap measurement. Expect it to be very dirty unless you bought it from an individual. drine
drine
06-13-2007, 11:13 PM
Rollers maybe 8-10 pair. That's not that bad. If you have a camera get some pictures of it. It is very easy to swap any of it out and I'll have my new bolt head to show you how it goes together.
I put a barrel on recently and had bought a new bolt head, locking piece and +4 rollers trying to get the old one to work. No luck. I built it back with the new parts on the high side..022 and use the old stuff to run @.011 now that all is settled. As it wears in I can swap again. That would assume I shot thousands of rounds through it which is unlikely!
FYI the accuracy was the issue with the barrel. I had .004 gap which was false because the cocking tube was too short. Probably 0 at best judging by the before and after looks of the barrel/trunnion space. Didn't realize it until it was too late.
Sounds good. Lots to look for. Thanks Hunter and Drine. I'm willing and expecting to have to work with this gun. That's sort of what the whole thing is about for me. I guess I;m looking for something really major that would disqualify the gun right off the bat where I just ship it back. A new $45 head bolt doesn't bother me if it ends up being ground. I'm just looking for something that would be so bad that the gun goes back right away without question.
drine
06-13-2007, 11:25 PM
If it did have a flash hider/mb and the pin was protruding in the barrel. This has been reported.
Any cracks?
Trunnion not square, although this might be hard to tell.
Rifling gone or overly smooth?
Is it coming from a dealer or individual?
hunter_la5
06-14-2007, 07:59 AM
on the ground bolt head, as drine said, is certainly a setback but not a deal breaker. my bolt head was ground, and after replacing it and the rollers my rifle is back into spec and running smoothly (finally).
Century CETME's are rather hit or miss in the quality departement, sometimes they run perfect out of the box, sometimes they are POS, and everything in between
if yours does turn out to be a lemon, the best philosophy to have with this gun is that it's a "project" rifle that you get to tinker and play with, and once you get it fixed up, you will enjoy it that much more after putting your own sweat and tears into it.
good luck
The gun was bought from a dealer on Gunbroker. I've been able to ascertain that it is a Third Generation gun due to the lack of a muzzle break and thick trigger. The chances that a Third Gen gun will be better is higher, or so this account says: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=491
But, as I've said, I'm willing to do what necessary to get it right. If i can start out with a good bore, a decent gap, and an unground bolt I'll be one happy camper.
BTW, I didn't dream about the Cetme last night. I drempt that I was chased by a giant accordian and that I took shots at it with my FAL. Go figure what that means!
I picked up the gun a couple of hours ago. She's as dirty as a pig but in very nice shape. It reminds me a lot of an eqaully dirty HK93 I picked up back in the late 80's for $475 which turned out to be a gem. There's still some cosmoline so whoever had this gun never shot her really clean. The black crappy buttstock is cracked, probably in shipping. I've seen better packing jobs. No matter, that was going to be replaced anyway. I'm just glad to have the hardware.
I cleaned out the inside at least as to the carrier and bolthead assembly. I'm assuming that I should aslo have the chamber area clean for an accurate bolt gap measure?
The bolt head is not ground. There is a nice healthy bevel and the front is clean with some original finish and no tool marks. That's a nice thing. Right now the gap is between .006 on one side and and .007 on the other. This is above the .004 factory spec minimum, but I'm tempted to drop in some new rollers now if that measure holds out after a complete cleaning and initial shooting. The barrel is dirty but the bore looks good from what I can see with nice rifling. I'm going to get on that pronto in case there was any corrosive ammo used.
The finish is fine and dandy but the butt stock is crap and the forearm and grip isn't much better. I'll have my green or wood furniture on it in a heartbeat once it's cleaned up.
I'm thinking I might be okay on this one. I'll see how it shoots assuming the gap stays within spec once its completely cleaned up.
Woodman in MO
06-14-2007, 01:40 PM
Welcome to the dark side...
http://thola.de/lego_star_wars/diorama_Eingang_DarthVader_small.jpg
Sounds like a good rifle you got there...
hunter_la5
06-14-2007, 01:44 PM
I'd go ahead and add +4 rollers, assuming that the rifle isnt already using them. CAI built many of the CETME's using +4's.
as for the buttstock, the black plastic stocks were used as compliance parts when the rifle was built. If you replace your stock set with foreign made wood or plastic, you will have to replace 2 other foriegn parts on your rifle with US made ones
I'd go ahead and add +4 rollers, assuming that the rifle isnt already using them. CAI built many of the CETME's using +4's.
as for the buttstock, the black plastic stocks were used as compliance parts when the rifle was built. If you replace your stock set with foreign made wood or plastic, you will have to replace 2 other foriegn parts on your rifle with US made ones
Too bad the US parts are pure crap. My old cap gun had better stocks than that!
I'll tell you, as an attorney who has litigated firearms cases I have a very strong opinion of 922r and the reality of it, but.....it is the law of the land, and for the record, I will say that I will dutifully swap parts. Right after that I'll go sew the federal labels back onto all of my matresses :America:
BTW, is there any way to tell whether they are already +4 rollers?
Woodman in MO
06-14-2007, 03:44 PM
Really just to mic them out if they aren't marked. I had what I thought were +0 rollers cause they weren't marked. So when I bought some +4's they mic'ed the same. Somewhere around here you can find the measurements for rollers
drine
06-14-2007, 05:20 PM
Some marking may help but you won't know until you mic them. Standard rollers are 8mm. +4 would be 8.04.
I'll break out my calipers. Hopefully the rollers are +0.
BTW, Hunter, thanks for the reminder on the parts count. While the law is absurd it's still the law, and it's very easy to forget when you start swapping parts.
Lon Moer
06-14-2007, 10:24 PM
You're within the basic recommended spec's, I would just clean it real good and go shoot it. See how it runs and how it POA's, then recheck the spec's and decide what changes might be needed.
You're within the basic recommended spec's, I would just clean it real good and go shoot it. See how it runs and how it POA's, then recheck the spec's and decide what changes might be needed.
That is exactly the plan. Last night I cleaned the gun from top to bottom. I went through 3/4 of a can of Gun Scrubber. Other than a lot of powder residue gone all that changed is that I lost my .007 gap on one side to an even .006 consistently across the gap. I measured my rollers and the diameters came in with diameter of .79 mm, and for a while I was measuring .77 mm. As the rollers weren't removed from the bolt it made measuring difficult, but the widest part did drop below the wall of the bolt, but getting a firm reading was tricky as it tended to push the roller back into the bolt. They might be -4 or -2 rollers, standard at the largest. I'm going to measure them again while keeping them pushed out with pressure from the inside of the bolt. I'd need to remove them to get a really certain measure, but at least I've got some room to play with rollers.
Saturday I'll spin some lead.
SteelCore
06-15-2007, 10:26 AM
.79mm? Dimeter on a roller should be 8mm...you're not measuring the roll pin are you?
Also, measure the bolt head too. it should be .835 inches long...the bevel is still on some BHs that have been lightly ground, so best to check.
BTW, welcome to the CETME fold. If you can get that thing safe, clean and ready to shoot in a month or two with minor work, and it is fairly accurate, you got one of the few good ones.
Woodman in MO
06-15-2007, 10:46 AM
I'd pop them out, it isn't too hard if you got a punch.
SteelCore
06-15-2007, 11:00 AM
Don't be in a hurry to fire it...take it slow and get it rite, man. Invest in a set of +4 rollers.
You can use the gas port cleaning tool form an AK as the roll pin punch. comes out easily, easy to put back.
okie shooter
06-15-2007, 11:00 AM
To measure something like rollers, removal would be key to getting a good reading, on them with a mic or a dial caliper, but more than one pass and at different points on the rollers would be desired.
By pushing on the roller from the inside I was able to get the maximum diameter out to be measured and keep it there during measuring. It was 8mm on the nose everywhere I measured on both rollers. The head bolt is 1.835 inches long on the nose with a healthy bevel. My bolt gap is .006 and the gun is as clean as a whistle.
I'm all for getting it right, but I think that I need to shoot it to be sure where I'm at and where I need to go.
It's time to light the candle.
okie shooter
06-16-2007, 09:37 AM
You have a standard set of rollers, thus you can use plus two and plus four rollers to increase bolt gap. They to interchange from HK rollers. If you were going to order one size I would order both, saves on shipping.
drine
06-16-2007, 02:20 PM
Met BUZZ FTF. I won't brag about his CETME too much, so he can do it later. Needless to say, he's got a real winner! THE BEST I"VE SEEN IN PERSON which I've seen a dozen or so. I suggested +4 rollers to him since his gap is .007. +2 rollers would help but why not just go to +4 and be in the mid-range.
We didn't get to measure the roller recesses to see if a new bolt head would make the gap better and stay with "0" rollers.
Nice guy and pleasure to meet someone FTF.
This morning I got to the DNR Woilsopn Shoals range right after opening. I set dow and had some fun with my DPMS AR15 Tuber and then shot it with a Bushmaster AK Shorty upper(vice versa, actually.) Hoping to save shooting the Cetme the first time for Drine's arrival I shot some handguns, a Glock 33, a Steyr M9A1, Walther P1, Walther P99 Compact and a HK USP Full .40&W. As I had passed a couple hundred rounds of .223 and an assortment of handgun rounds down range I looked to my Cetme sitting in its digital camo case and decided that the time was right then I had checked the gap again twice and it was still at .006.
The range had cleared out a bit as most of the guys were at their cars taking a break, so I grabbed a Cetme mag with two rounds of Barnaul 7.62x51 . I've got to admit that I was more than a bit tense, but really excited. As I wasn't sure what was going to happen I figured the time was right with the range momentarily empty but with guys nearby just in case. The first two round fired and cycled perfectly. I had never shot 7.62x51 before. I found the recoil to be considerable but not at all unpleasant. Same with the report. Muzzle jump wasn't all that bad. This gun is not threaded for a break. I'll probably leave it that way. I had gone with the 2 rounds in case there was a slamfire. I checked the gap and it was .006.
Next I went with a Cetme mag with five rounds. Again flawless operation. I checked the gap again with the same result. I then went with twenty round HK mags shooting strings of five and sometimes longer stopping to check the impact with my 10x50 Nikons. I was consistently shooting high/right at 25 yards. Honestly I wasn't all that interested in sighting and was mainly looking at cycling. I moved up to the 100 yard backdrop (or is it 75 yards) and did some rockwork at fixed points again shooting high to the right despite flipping sights. I had no way to adjust the fromt sight, but the gun was grouping. The sight post is straight with no cant.
Overall I shot a little over 100 rounds before I had to leave. Drine got there with a wonderful Cetme with some really spectacular wood furniture. He saw much of my Cetme shooting and was able to show me some parts and impart some very useful information. As Steelcore had recommended he agreed that the only thing needed to do was install some +4 rollers and running with it. That is exactly what I will do. Drine was doing a little rockwork of his own while he waited for a break to get his target set up. It was a pleasure meeting him, a really good guy.
In over 100 rounds shot I had one FTF. The primer was only lightly dimpled. The round fired when it was run in the next mag. Over 100 rounds, and with that one exception, the gun performed flawlessly, shooting reliably with Barnauls and a variety of HK mags and one Cetme mag. I will measure the gap again tomorow after a good cleaning but suspect that it will be at .006. I think that I checked a last time at around 15 or 20 rounds (but I can't say for sure).
So far I'm really pleased.
drine
06-16-2007, 11:26 PM
A good post from Buzz. What he fails to mention is that he has managed to get one fine CETME. Honestly guys, the fit and finish of this one is nothing like I've seen. Crisp, clean, even welds. No globs. Brass flying out over my head at the next table. No issues at all save the one soft strike. He got one from an expert monkey or possibly a higher form of primate! It is one lucky find for him! Nice day at the range. :2pistol:
My CETME bucked on the NO LUBE trial. I lubed it up and let fly 30 rds of Port. Loose when I got it and somewhat old and rough looking. No issues except the CETME mag didn't want to cycle the last two rounds. It needs a cleaning though, I never took it apart and it was NOS. I put in 5 precious Radway's and what a difference newer cleaner ammo makes. I couldn't find the cases. End table so they flew up and off range! And NO tar looking substances this time!!:rockon:
Woops, forgot to mention, I knew BUZZ was at the range when I pulled up and heard the boom!
And another wooops, Before one of you guys say it...I forgot the camera!!! Useless without pics but I'll quote Buzz: "The pictures are in my head!"
I checked the bolt gap on the Cetme last night with the gun dirty (ran out of gunscrubber cleaning pistols) and it measured closer to .007 (tight) rather than the original .006.
I'll tell you, when you start shooting the Cetme heads turn down the length of the range to see what it is. Shooting full auto must be quite an experience.
And of course, the required photo! The next time that you see a photo it will be sporting wood.
okie shooter
06-18-2007, 01:54 PM
Remember Buzz, if you swap out for wood, you need to check for compliance parts, to keep the rifle legal. Many of the plastic stocked rifles use the butt stock and forestock as part of the 922r compliance. There are threads here to guide you as what to look for in the parts in your rifle, and which ones are likely compliance parts.
Thanks Okie, a good reminder. Unfortunately I'm all too familiar with 922r and parts swapping from other rifles that I own. Those threads here will be very useful for this particular rifle.
BTW, the ATF definition (definitive of nothing) of what constitutes a part is incredibly silly, something you will have definitely have seen if you've spent any time around the SKS or the AK. It's probably the same silliness for the Cetme, I'd imagine.
Silly, silly law, one that will only come into play if it's bootstrapped onto a far far more serious base Federal violation. Keep your nose clean and you can count parts until the cows come home and it won't mean a thing. Rob a bank and you can bet they will start counting parts. But, that is now and who knows what might come down the road, so count we must.
Anyone know how many 922r prosecutions there have been, I mean those that are for a violation of 922r alone without another crime charged, a prosecution of just a regular Joe who hasn't had run-ins with the Feds over something else? Wanna bet that the BATFE would much rather all of the gun enthusiasts stop writing in for opinions on 922r issues? Wanna bet the BATFE has no intention of enforcing 922r alone? That's just the point: who wants to bet? Over the years I've dealt with ATF agents, and believe me, they have bigger fish to fry. But, who knows? And that's all that I'll say about that. :icon_biggrin:
922r reminds me of a Monty Python sketch.
okie shooter
06-18-2007, 04:44 PM
Well, not sure how many there have been, but do you or any of us want to become the first 922r compliance prosecution, as they say in "Office Space" quote, "We get caught laundering money, we're not going to white-collar resort prison. No, no, no. We're going to federal POUND ME IN THE A$$ prison."
Rampager
06-18-2007, 04:52 PM
Yep and remember as stupid and silly as 922r is, it is our loophole for owning many guns that otherwise would be illegal without this loophole in the law.
Yep and remember as stupid and silly as 922r is, it is our loophole for owning many guns that otherwise would be illegal without this loophole in the law.
That's one way to look at it, I guess. A nice loophole through which we can enjoy our Second Amendment rights.
Well, not sure how many there have been, but do you or any of us want to become the first 922r compliance prosecution, as they say in "Office Space" quote, "We get caught laundering money, we're not going to white-collar resort prison. No, no, no. We're going to federal POUND ME IN THE A$$ prison."
I would seriously doubt there has been any. But that is my point, who is going to take the chance?
BTW, I should apologize for my repeated gripes about 922r. As someone who has sworn to protect and uphold the Constitution the whole notion of being given permission to enjoy my rights is abhorrent. I will note a standing objection to 922r, and now move on :icon_neutral:
Following the good advice offered here and by Drine at the range, today I ordered plus 4 rollers and extra roller plates and roll pins from RTG. With the excellent videos that we have for reference I should have the rollers changed easily, knock on wood. I also picked up a spare firing pin assembly and another ten surplus HK/G3 mags. While the fit is tight these mags work reliably, at least the five or six that I have tried out of the 60 or so that I have stored away. Now I just need a sight tool and a sling and I'm set.
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