Is my Lee Enfield a fake?

[spacemonkey333]

I just traded some guns with a guy earlier this week. One of the guns that I got is a Lee Enfield No.4 MK 1, allegedly... I have been searching the internet and I can not tell:
1) Is this gun legit
2)I can't seem to properly identify these markings
3)Some of the markings look like they were crudely etched in by someone trying to falsely represent the gun. In the picture of the wrist, the serial number matches the bolt, but it is so faint that you can hardly read it. It also looks like someone took a dremel or something and just crudely copied it to make it look like a match. It doesn't look stamped.

Any help that I could get on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you and sorry for the bad pics. I only have a cell phone as my camera.

[brewskzilla]

I'd say it looks like someone may have tried to make the markings more visible. Really, though, I can't tell for sure. Hey... Looks real to me. If it shoots well, then I'd say you got yourself a nice rifle.

[Planning]

enfields have lots of stamps and eltro etching on them. they were built, rebuilt, refurbished, rebuilt again.
what you have is what i have seen on many of them. enjoy it.

oh! i almost missed it. welcome to the site.
ron

[Norton]

It looks real to me from your pictures. Those marks are stamped like many Enfields. The stock looks war time, the Broad arrow is English
My SMLE has that crown BMP mark and those arrows. My No 4 is a made in USA Savage so it has cleaner stamps. But even the made in USA rifle looks very much the same. Electric pencil marks are normal post war marking from other nation's arms rooms. India, Pakistans, Iraq, Iran, Kenya all had people putting their own numbers for their own sign out books.

[Player]

is that a '43 rifle? Lots of wartime rifles had time/fund-saving variations. My '43 hardly has any markings on it and doesn't have the finger grooves for the striker leaf.... but still shoots sub MOA! (that is 5 shots at 100m up there)

[spacemonkey333]

is that a '43 rifle? Lots of wartime rifles had time/fund-saving variations. My '43 hardly has any markings on it and doesn't have the finger grooves for the striker leaf.... but still shoots sub MOA!
Not sure. I am brand new to these guns. The serial starts with APxxxx on both the bolt and the wrist collar...Nice grouping BTW...that thing is a tack driver. Can't wait to field test mine.

[Player]

yeah on your left side of the rear tang where it is stamped 1943, that is the year, seems like your "3" was double stamped. BNP= British nitro proof.. you can shoot smokless powder...

[spacemonkey333]

yeah on your left side of the rear tang where it is stamped 1943, that is the year, seems like your "3" was double stamped. BNP= British nitro proof.. you can shoot smokless powder...
Ha! Sweet. So that DOES add up because I just found a site that had Maltby serial numbers and APxxxx is a 1943 Maltby. I thought that "9" was a "B". What you said makes sense. It must have been double stamped. That BNP with the crown is also stamped on the ball of my bolt.

Does anyone know any good sites that describe what all of these proof marks mean? I have been to two or three and I can't find most of my markings on any of the sites.

[Planning]

Ha! Sweet. So that DOES add up because I just found a site that had Maltby serial numbers and APxxxx is a 1943 Maltby. I thought that "9" was a "B". What you said makes sense. It must have been double stamped. That BNP with the crown is also stamped on the ball of my bolt.

Does anyone know any good sites that describe what all of these proof marks mean? I have been to two or three and I can't find most of my markings on any of the sites.

the hunt is part of owning these unique rifles or any of the old military rifle. to me that is one of the best parts. sometime you find you have something rare. that is a big grin moment. so just keep hunting.
i have a few i am still looking for information on for lots of years.
ron

[spacemonkey333]

the hunt is part of owning these unique rifles or any of the old military rifle. to me that is one of the best parts. sometime you find you have something rare. that is a big grin moment. so just keep hunting.
i have a few i am still looking for information on for lots of years.
ron

You know what, you are completely right. I have been thoroughly enjoying the "hunt". What is funny about it all is that I just thought this was a cheap ol' stick gun and I was going to dump it to a pawn shop for a few bucks. Truth is, these are very intriguing pieces of history. I am learning something new about this gun every day. It might be slowly becoming one of my favorites and I haven't even shot it yet!

[brewskzilla]

:056:WHAT? You haven't shot it yet? Man, those are some of the smoothest shooting rifles out there! The recoil feels like getting kissed by a pretty girl! Let us know when you do. You'll be calling your SMLE a SMILEY..

[spacemonkey333]

:056:WHAT? You haven't shot it yet? Man, those are some of the smoothest shooting rifles out there! The recoil feels like getting kissed by a pretty girl! Let us know when you do. You'll be calling your SMLE a SMILEY..
Haha! I am hoping I get the chance soon. Don't have any ammo yet. Now that I know more about it, I am definitely going to hang on to it and it WILL get shot often.

[drine]

My favorite milsurp bolt gun of all time: No4 Mk1. I had a goodun, traded it for oldest sons first rifle YEARS ago. I was a penniless vet just getting started.

[Player]

If you can reload, get a neck sizer die and you'll be set on ammo. You're not suppposed to mag dump anyways, and you'll get better accuracy. I load mine with 174gr SMK BTHP, R-P brass, Fed GM large rifle primers and 41.0gr Varget.

When I hunt with it I use 174gr RN. It's a great rifle to hunt with too. 174gr was the weight that the Brits used, so it matches the bore twist too.

Watch out for Paki ammo, some are fine, some hangfire and are spotted with duds. Greek HXP is Boxer primed, non-corrosive and reloadable if you are looking for ammo. British RG is good ammo, some older stuff from WW2 is loaded with Cordite and will fry your barrel sooner too.

[spacemonkey333]

If you can reload, get a neck sizer die and you'll be set on ammo. You're not suppposed to mag dump anyways, and you'll get better accuracy. I load mine with 174gr SMK BTHP, R-P brass, Fed GM large rifle primers and 41.0gr Varget.

When I hunt with it I use 174gr RN. It's a great rifle to hunt with too. 174gr was the weight that the Brits used, so it matches the bore twist too.

Watch out for Paki ammo, some are fine, some hangfire and are spotted with duds. Greek HXP is Boxer primed, non-corrosive and reloadable if you are looking for ammo. British RG is good ammo, some older stuff from WW2 is loaded with Cordite and will fry your barrel sooner too.
Thanks for the info. I just might try to take a whitetail with it this winter. As far as ammo, I had some surplus Paki ammo for my cetme. You are right about its inconsistency. I did, however, get good groups out of it when it fired. It was also dirty as hell. I have never reloaded, but I think I might give it a try.

I have heard mixed feedback on scopes. Is it just better to go with a milled rear sight, or scope it? Mine has neither right now. Just the paddle sights for 300 and 600 meters.

[lima]

Ha! Sweet. So that DOES add up because I just found a site that had Maltby serial numbers and APxxxx is a 1943 Maltby. I thought that "9" was a "B". What you said makes sense. It must have been double stamped. That BNP with the crown is also stamped on the ball of my bolt.

Does anyone know any good sites that describe what all of these proof marks mean? I have been to two or three and I can't find most of my markings on any of the sites.

A LOT of very extensive knowlege on the history of these rifles lives here... http://w_w_w.milsurps.com/index.php

[drine]

Don't know if they still make the mount I put on mine. You removed the rear sight, the mount used that hole as a hinge point with an included screw. The front had a wedge that clamped near the front. It was very strong and stable. Don't recall the name.

[spacemonkey333]

Don't know if they still make the mount I put on mine. You removed the rear sight, the mount used that hole as a hinge point with an included screw. The front had a wedge that clamped near the front. It was very strong and stable. Don't recall the name.
Do you remember where you purchased it?

[spacemonkey333]

A LOT of very extensive knowlege on the history of these rifles lives here... http://w_w_w.milsurps.com/index.php
Thank You. I have identified nearly every mark on my gun through a link at milsurps. Still don't know fully what they mean, but it is a good start.

[mitchstoner]

My very first milsurp, that I actually bought because it was a genuine old warhorse, is a No. 4, Mk 1*, Long Branch. It appears to have spent time in Greece before it arrived in Century's warehouse. Has the remains of a paper label on the side of the buttstock with some Greek letters.

Still one of my favorites. Nearly ruined the bore before I really knew what corrosive ammo is. Have deer hunted with it, but have never had a shot at a deer when the Enfield was in the woods with me. It has led to a lot of expense and late nights studying different firearms. My "gateway drug" to addiction.

ps. Welcome to mfa, spacemonkey!

[spacemonkey333]

I know that this is off subject, but I was curious if anyone else has experienced this. I was looking for more markings on my rifle when I noticed some paper or something with writing on it under my stock. I removed the top of the stock to find pieces of vintage cereal boxes. I think that they were used as shims to make the stock fit snugly? Kind of cool. Post Toasties, Raisin Bran and an old ad for diamond matchbooks. They are easily 1940s or 50s. There are more underneath the barrel that I haven't seen yet. This gun just keeps getting cooler and cooler...

[MJ11]

40g of IMR4064 174g SMK's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/2102848b.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/baad3795.jpg

...................:wink:................

[mitchstoner]

Depending on the location of the cardboard shims, that sounds like something done to remove stock/handguard pressure against the barrel. Even seasoned wood will warp to various degrees depending on changes in humidity, etc. and can apply constantly changing pressure against the barrel, which can move your point of impact. Trying to shim the stock farther back towards the receiver may be an attempt to remove stock to barrel contact closer to the muzzle. Sort of like free-floating a barrel.

The cardboard might also have been inserted to quiet a rattle.

On the other hand, look closely at the cardboard scraps under magnification and different lighting to see if there is writing on them.

[spacemonkey333]

Depending on the location of the cardboard shims, that sounds like something done to remove stock/handguard pressure against the barrel. Even seasoned wood will warp to various degrees depending on changes in humidity, etc. and can apply constantly changing pressure against the barrel, which can move your point of impact. Trying to shim the stock farther back towards the receiver may be an attempt to remove stock to barrel contact closer to the muzzle. Sort of like free-floating a barrel.

The cardboard might also have been inserted to quiet a rattle.

On the other hand, look closely at the cardboard scraps under magnification and different lighting to see if there is writing on them.

I will do that. I have already done some digging and found that the Post Toasties is from 1958, so unfortunately, it wasn't placed there during WWII. I am assuming that everything else is that period also. I will take it apart and check the scraps closely under magnification tonight or tomorrow.

[Norton]

I know that this is off subject, but I was curious if anyone else has experienced this. I was looking for more markings on my rifle when I noticed some paper or something with writing on it under my stock. I removed the top of the stock to find pieces of vintage cereal boxes. I think that they were used as shims to make the stock fit snugly? Kind of cool. Post Toasties, Raisin Bran and an old ad for diamond matchbooks. They are easily 1940s or 50s. There are more underneath the barrel that I haven't seen yet. This gun just keeps getting cooler and cooler...

Can you post pictures of the box tops? I am interested in things like this when they are found inside a vintage rifle. You wonder who, when where and why.

[spacemonkey333]

Ok. Here are the shims that I found and the markings that were revealed after taking the gun apart. Sorry for the gigantic post...

[Simon]

Ok. Here are the shims that I found and the markings that were revealed after taking the gun apart. Sorry for the gigantic post...
I hope you save those shims, they look neat. I'm admittedly a little nutty about these sort of things. I have a dead ladybug that crawled into a Yugo Mauser and died in the cosmoline. Found it while cleaning my then new toy.

B-Square makes a scope mount for Enfields by the way, I don't know the quality but a bit of searching on the bigger gun boards or google should get you plenty of reviews quick. I vaguely remember some people liked a K31 mount they made.

[mitchstoner]

Sorry for the gigantic post... Don't apologize. I like long posts, and probably others do too. Lot more interesting that, "Neat gun" or "Cool pics" which is the total content of quite a few.

[spacemonkey333]

I hope you save those shims, they look neat. I'm admittedly a little nutty about these sort of things. I have a dead ladybug that crawled into a Yugo Mauser and died in the cosmoline. Found it while cleaning my then new toy.

B-Square makes a scope mount for Enfields by the way, I don't know the quality but a bit of searching on the bigger gun boards or google should get you plenty of reviews quick. I vaguely remember some people liked a K31 mount they made.Oh I am definitely saving the shims. In fact, I put them right back in the stock where I found them. I go crazy for that type of thing as well.

Thanks for the tip on the scope mount BTW.

[Com-Bloc]

M47 is BSA Shirley (Birmingham Small Arms) good gettin you got LOL. I had two BSA' and they had the tightest bores of all of mine .310 was perfect. Man I miss them!

BNP (British Nitro Proof) means at one point it was tested and released for the civillian market.

[Com-Bloc]

40g of IMR4064 174g SMK's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/2102848b.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/baad3795.jpg

...................:wink:................ which finnish is that on the steel? is that original park?