Reloading 7.62x54R Questions

[flyguy8555]

Okay, here's what I'm thinking about. I have a boatload of Russian 7.62x54R ammo. I'm thinking about taking some of that ammo and pulling the bullets, dumping the powder, and reloading them with a consistant amount of quality powder, then reinserting the bullet. I'm going to be using the Lee Classic loader. Does anyone have any experience with this and have some good load data (type and amount of powder)?
I'll be firing this ammo out of a Mosin Nagant 91/30 that has been made into a scout rifle - barrel is 20 1/2".
Thanks.

[cz759]

Here is what I have found. The powder is pretty good stuff, but not consistant in weights loaded. I have weighed differences of as much as 4 gr. I then pulled 20 bullets, weighed the total weigh of the powder then divided by 20, took the average. Pulled 100 more dumped the powder in the RCBS powder measure and set it for the average amount. Tosed the bullets and replaced then with Honady 174 gr fmjbt SKU #3131 for .303 cal. Results were great. .85 groups @100 yds with a 91/30 and a cheapo scout scope. Your results may very. I should mention this rifle also has modified trigger and slightly inletted stock.

[concretus]

That's very interesting! Did the surplus ammo have the heavier bullet? Which surplus ammo did you use? I want to reload for my M38 but it's a PITA with the surplus corrosive ammo. I've been using the Russian LB that's out there with decent results. This particular rifle seems to dial itself in after 15 or 20 fouling shots. but then after a session, the rifle has to be cleaned due to the corrosive primers bringing you back to zero.
I've been reloading for quite a few years now and yes it's been very rewarding working up custom loads for my rifles and handguns. I don't expect moa accuracy with the M38 but I'm sure there will be an overall improvement. I should slug the barrel though to determine which dia bullet would work best. I had (3) powders in mind to try; IMR 4064, IMR 4350 and Varget. I got 100pcs of Privi brass and Win LR primers. Have any of you had better success with full length or neck sizing the brass? Any recipes that have been successful? Thanks again....

[flyguy8555]

Here is what I have found. The powder is pretty good stuff, but not consistant in weights loaded. I have weighed differences of as much as 4 gr. I then pulled 20 bullets, weighed the total weigh of the powder then divided by 20, took the average. Pulled 100 more dumped the powder in the RCBS powder measure and set it for the average amount. Tosed the bullets and replaced then with Honady 174 gr fmjbt SKU #3131 for .303 cal. Results were great. .85 groups @100 yds with a 91/30 and a cheapo scout scope. Your results may very. I should mention this rifle also has modified trigger and slightly inletted stock.

Thanks - this is what I was looking for!

[brewskzilla]

Interesting idea... Question: 7.62x54... What is the bullet diameter? Is it the same as a .308? If it is, I'm thinking of some BADA$$ ideas for long range shooting...

[7.62guy]

the bores on those things can run anywhere from .309 to .314. best thing to do is slug the bores. but the 303 round is .311 and seems to work well in most.

[cz759]

Depends on the barrel. You need to slug yours to get the correct size. Mine sluged to .311, that is why I chose the .3105 for the .303. The bullet is only slightly lighter than the origional Russina Heavy but much more suited to accuracy, especially with the properly regulated powder loadings. by the way if you are looking for sub sonic 7.62x39 loads you can use 200-220gr bullets. I am still working on powder requirements, but am getting close. You can use .308 bullets, but I have not had real good luck with accuracy or getting a real tight crimp on the steel cases

[flyguy8555]

Okay, time to wave my Ignorant flag. How does one go about "slugging" one's barrel? I understand the concept - to accurately ascertain the diameter of the bore. It's the "how" part that baffles me.

[cz759]

I use a dead soft fishing weight, egg shaped, and brass rods of sufficient bore size. Lube the lead sinker up well, push it into the chamber about three inches, then support the bottom of the brass rod against the floor. From the muzzle side I run another brass rod down to meet the sinker, then give it a few taps to flaten it out against the bore. Then remove the rod from the muzzle then drive the sinker out from the chamber end (carefully) the end result is an exact measurement of the bore lands and groves. I have also used hardwood dowels in place of the brass rod, but prefer brass rods

[7.62guy]

be sure to use a good lube and plenty of it. bearing grease or something of that nature will work. clean throughly afterwards. the above technique will give you the bore, lands diameter at that piont. by the way i must have been thinking of something else when i said to swag the bore. i meant slug the bore. now if the barrel has been shot a lot your lands could be a little less as you travel up the barrel to a point at the muzzel where some rifles have been counter bored to save them and not replace the barrel. cz759 knows what he is talking about and has given good advice. old guys like myself that have been reloading for years have been doing this to get the most life out of barrels that we just didn't want to replace or didn't have the money to do so.

[concretus]

It just so happens that I slugged the bore in my M38 this evening and it measures between .311 and .312. So does that mean that I nee to use .310 bullets, .311 or .312? ? I know you have to be careful because of unsafe pressures.

[concretus]

I decided to start with Hornady .312 15gr Spire Point. Will that be okay with that slugged bore?

[cz759]

Concretus, you should have no trouible at all with that bullet, I would load 10 then look for overpressure signs as in flat or pierced primers. I figure that you will start low on powder and work up to what works best. Load 2ea rounds and mark them, each set of 2, I increase the powder up to just below maximum then chrono the rounds. I would give you what I have in data. Unfortuntly all my data is packed away in moving boxes at this time.

[concretus]

Concretus, you should have no trouible at all with that bullet, I would load 10 then look for overpressure signs as in flat or pierced primers. I figure that you will start low on powder and work up to what works best. Load 2ea rounds and mark them, each set of 2, I increase the powder up to just below maximum then chrono the rounds. I would give you what I have in data. Unfortuntly all my data is packed away in moving boxes at this time.

Great thanks!!

[concretus]

Would it be beneficial to run the bullet out closer to the lands? Is the magazine big enough to allow that?

[7.62guy]

Would it be beneficial to run the bullet out closer to the lands? Is the magazine big enough to allow that? where you set the ogive to the lands depends on the rifle and the type of bullet being loaded. also the chamber length comes into play. i have not yet played with seating bullets and distance from the lands on my mosins. too many rifles that i load for long range. i can tell you from what i have loaded and worked with that it seams that sierra bthp work well for me at .018 to .020 off the lands in most of my rifles. now that does leave the col to long to load in the floor plate magizine in my remmy. so i bench shoot those one at a time. remmington has a very forgiving chamber or better said just to d--n long.you can measure your chamber to the lands and try a round at .020 off the lands and see what your col is going to be and then adjust to get your best groups. hope this helps. ps. you will most likely exceed the col in all your books when doing this unless the chambers are very close to sammi spects.

[concretus]

Thanks 7.62 guy!

[res45]

Back before brass case reloadable 54r ammo was available locally or good boxer primed commercial brass I Mexican Matches Brass case Bulgarian surplus ammo. I used both the LB and HB ammo it's still corrosive but $30 for 100 rds. of good shooting accurate hunting ammo isn't bad for a little bench time.
L to R Surplus HB,Hornady 174 gr. RN,Surplus LB,150 gr. tracer & 150 gr. Speer HotCor.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/res45/33001.jpg

A couple other bullets that have worked well also,Sierra 150 gr. ProHunter and Prvi Partizan 150 gr. BTSP.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/res45/test013.jpg

[landtoy80]

Does the bore diameter change due to the bore wearing out or are the bores manufactured inconsistently over the years?

Would this work on a worn AK barrel? Can you use a larger diameter bullet in a 7.62x39 if the slugging show larger diameter?

[res45]

For the sake of discussion bores on most firearms never actually wear out,the throat or the part of the bore just ahead of the chamber where the bullets is funneled into the lands and grooves is the part that erodes over time and causes loss of accuracy. Mainly due to heat and being blasted by the powder particles.

Any firearm is only going to last having so many pounds of powder shot down the bore,you can send that powder down the bore in large quantities and high velocity in rapid succession over a short period of time or you can send that same number of lbs. of powder down the bore in milder loads and slower velocity over a longer period of time.

As far as bore diameters go quality control and mfg. process of the country that made the barrels at that time probably has more to do with the variations you see not bore wear. The best way to determine the best size bullet for you rifle is to slug the bore and measure the groove to groove dia. that would give you the MAX dia. jacketed bullet you can fire in that bore providing the loaded cartridge will chamber. For safety reasons because of pressure issues it best to shoot groove dia. bullets or ones slightly smaller.

It's been my experience when using jacketed bullet in my Russian M44 and Yugo and Chinese SKS rifle that jacketed bullets slightly smaller than the groove dia. shoot more accurately. For instance my M44 bolt gun and both my SKS rifle have a groove dia. of .312,the Mosin shoot the .311 dia. bullets the most accurately while my SKS rifles prefer a bullet dia. of .310.

[Cody Glass]

Vihnt n 140 and 150 will produce youre best accuracy with 7.62 54R,IMHO, Varget also will produce fine groupe. Have also used the H 4895, 4046. But if you want range and accuracy, 175 gr sierra matchking bt, using the vihnt n 140, and play with it some. I think you will like the results hornady amax is another great bullet in either 168gr. or 175gr. I mostly stick to the .311 diameter, but every rifle is different.

[flyguy8555]

Ok update time. I finally got going and reloaded a bunch of Russian milsurp ammo. My plan was to decrease the powder charge a bit to lessen the foot-long fireball coming out of the barrel, as well as reduce the recoil slightly. Here's the process I used.
I took 20 rounds of milsurp ammo, pulled the bullets, and weighed each powder charge to see how consistant they were. They ranged from 45-49 grains.
I weighed the bullets, and they were 150 grain boattails.
I then measured out 43 grains of the saved milsurp powder and reloaded the rounds, reusing the bullets as well.
At the range I found that the recoil was quite manageable, and I was shooting 1" groups at 50 yards.
Range conditions were:
Temp - 21 degrees
Wind - light breeze at my back.
Sunny skies.
Weapon - 1939 Tula Mosin Nagant 91/30 with the barrel shortened to 21 1/2". Scout scope (4x LER).
31526
Shooting from a bench with a couple of sandbags to rest the weapon on.

I don't yet have access to a chronograph, so I can't speak about muzzle velocity. On my next trip to the range, I'll see how the rounds/weapon perform at 100 and 200 yards (that's as far as I can shoot there).
I decided since the LER scope is basically a small step up from iron sights, I would use the same aiming system as we used in the military (more or less).
The weapon is zeroed at 50 yds. This means that at 100 and 200 I'll be hitting high, and somewhere between 250 and 300 it should drop back to dead on. How high will be determined on the next range day.
The logic is that at close range you're right on, and from there out to 300 yards any shot aimed at center of mass wil impact somewhere in the torso. The Mosin and the Mauser both were originally set up with their iron sights zeroed at 300, if I recall correctly.
I'll post an update after the next range trip.
Finally - thanks to all for the information - that's what I like about this place.

[nevada]

That foot long fireball (in daylight!) is one of the attractive things about MNs.
Blind the animal in low light and take a second shot if needed.

[bigcromag]

If all you guys are tossing your old bullets i'll take them.. I need some cheap slugs to send down the bore of mt enfields..

[flyguy8555]

Okay - just back from the range.
Conditions -
Temp 29 degrees
No wind
Cloudy skies
Shooting from bench with sandbags for support.

Confirmed zero at 50 yds. Still a 1" group. So far so good. I then moved over to the 100 yd range.
The groups widened out to 4-5 inches and was about 6 inches high.

I wasn't really surprised with the group. I expected it to be high. The scope I have on the weapon is more like using an Aimpoint - minimal magnification, and the center dot tends to obscure the target out past 100 yds, so I'd like to get another scope with plain old crosshairs. That being said, I'm ok with a 4-5 inch group at 100 yds out of a 72 year old weapon.

The lessened recoil was nice - made it easier to reaquire the target. All in all I'm pleased with the results. Now to wait for the weather to improve so I can get off the bench and work on real shooting positions (it's a little soggy right now).