Help with Primers

[JayGeeWentWorth]

The price of loaded ammo is getting way to expensive for me so I think I'm going to start reloading. I've pretty much located everything that I need and want to get. However, I saw a post on here regarding Berdan primers. Initially, I plan to reload South African and Pakistani milsurp brass. Do either of these cases use Berdan primers. Also, any suggestions on the type of primers to get?

[Geilt]

The price of loaded ammo is getting way to expensive for me so I think I'm going to start reloading. I've pretty much located everything that I need and want to get. However, I saw a post on here regarding Berdan primers. Initially, I plan to reload South African and Pakistani milsurp brass. Do either of these cases use Berdan primers. Also, any suggestions on the type of primers to get?


A couple of things to know about reloading berdan type primers first.

They are often crimped or otherwise held in with some sort of bonding agent (primer sealer most likely). Getting the primers out requires a special tool from RCBS. I think it runs around $75 retail, check EvilBay. Be prepared to butcher a dozen or so primers trying to get them out. It takes practice.

If you resize the brass, make sure to remove your die's decapping pin. The dies are intended to pop the primer on boxer brass and the pin will bend or break if you're try it on a berdan case.

Once the primer is out you'll need to remove the crimp (if it was there) before trying to seat a another primer. There are small tools to help with this. Not too expensive if I recall.

If you primer was sealed I also recommend cleaning the primer pocket in an attempt to get all that old crud out. Use a primer pocket brush to avoid ruining the anvil (the small cone shaped piece in the center of the pocket needed to ignite the primer).

Finally... priming... there is a guy in Gun Broker that shows up from time time with two lots of primers. I think there was a link to one of his auctions in my thread asking about berdan primers.

I've used a handheld RCBS priming tool with the large pin to get the primers seated. I rotate the case a 1/4 turn, twice, and apply more pressure. I want to get a solid seat there so the primer makes even, consistent, contact with the anvil.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

Thank you Geilt. I appreciate the info. I am hoping the cases I have aren't berdan primed, but just in case I want to be ready. :thumbup:

[tomoshenko]

Thank you Geilt. I appreciate the info. I am hoping the cases I have aren't berdan primed, but just in case I want to be ready. :thumbup:
Easy to tell. Look inside the case. If it has 2 holes to the sides of the center
of the primer pocket it's Berdan. 1 hole in the center of the pocket it's Boxer.
SA is Berdan. Don't know about Pakistani.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

I did a little research and found out that the Pakistani is also berdan primed. Crap. Not what I was hoping for. Maybe I'll try the RCBS tool out. I found it at midwayusa for about $50.

On another note, does anyone know of any milsurp brass that is boxer primed?

[okie shooter]

Jaygeewentworth, the us military brass is boxer primed, as I believe indian is too. I also think some of the europian stuff is, ingman, Prvi Partizan and sellers&bellot(wolf gold, is made by one of these). Not sure if the europian stuff is going to be .308 win or 7.62x51 nato for thickness of cases though.

[bullseye]

Seeing as how I have been depriming 308 brass lately, I'll chime in on this because i just went through it myself. I just deprimed 4k and got them tumbled. Here is what I have found to be berdan. AFF(australia), MF(australia), 11(chinese norinco), POF L2A2(pakistan), KF(india), O(s&b), FNM(mexico or portugal), R1M1(south african). There are others, but that is what I have found so far. Any one feel free to add to this.
For good boxer brass, anything US made: Rem, FC, LC, Black Hills, Frontier, WRA(nato cross), WCC(nato cross), PMC, TW(twin cities nato cross), Hornady, Winchester, Estate, CBC(brazil), Norma, OFV(indian), CAVIM(Venezuela), IK(Yugoslavia), KF(india)(both), HP(austria), IMI(israeli nato cross).
Reference http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm

What I do is stand a bunch up then shine a light down and look at the flash holes. If one, it goes into one box, if 2,it goes into another. As far as what type of primers to get, I would suggest CCI no.34 for the 308 in a military firearm, or Rem 9 1/2, Fed 210, or CCI 200 in a hunting/target rifle. If all the brass you have is boxer primed you might wanna look at evilbay for some brass to get started. Be dilligent and you can find a(soso)deal. You might try any ranges nearby and see what is left on the ground. you could also check out the trader boards and trade something for brass. Ill add some more links to get brass here, so check this out if you need to buy brass. http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=884

[JayGeeWentWorth]

Ok, I just ordered the equipment I need to get reloading minus the gun powder. Any recommendations on powder for the 7.62 nato round? I was able to find some Berdan primers on GB as suggested and since all of the brass I currently have access to is SA or Pakistani I went ahead and purchased the RCBS Berdan depriming tool as well. Is it possible to seat Berdan primers using standard dies or will I have to do it with the RCBS tool?

Please excuse my complete lack of technical knowledge on the subject of reloading. I am just getting started. :confused:

[bullseye]

Please excuse my complete lack of technical knowledge on the subject of reloading. I am just getting started. :confused:

We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. Have no worries and ask away, there are lots of foks reading this that may have the same questions and just haven't asked yet.

Is it possible to seat Berdan primers using standard dies or will I have to do it with the RCBS tool?
I have no clue myself and would also like to know as I have found several hundred berdan primers locally.

[Geilt]

Please excuse my complete lack of technical knowledge on the subject of reloading. I am just getting started. :confused:

We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. Have no worries and ask away, there are lots of foks reading this that may have the same questions and just haven't asked yet.

Is it possible to seat Berdan primers using standard dies or will I have to do it with the RCBS tool?
I have no clue myself and would also like to know as I have found several hundred berdan primers locally.

There's no such thing as a stupid question. Okay there is but this isn't one of them and its always better to ask than not ask and get injured.

Are you asking if you can use standard sizing dies with a decapping pin to remove the berdan primer? If so, the answer is no. Boxer primed cases use a centered flash hole through which the decapping pin pushes the primer out of the cup. Berdan primed cases have an anvil in the center of the primer cup with two flash holes on either side of the anvil. If you try to use a standard die on a berdan primed case you'll break the decapping pin and, unlikely but possible, damage the die itself.

There are a couple of ways to deprime berdan cases. The RCBS tool is probably the easiest, cheapest and safest. You can also try the "hydraulic press" method by which the primer is forced out using water pressure. For an idea of what this is like try the following link:

http://website.lineone.net/~da.cushman/hydraulic.html

I use the RCBS depriming tool to remove berdan primers. I then use the RCBS hand priming tool to seat both boxer and berdan primers. The biggest thing to make sure of is that the new berdan primers properly fit in the tool you're using. What I wouldn't recommend is trying to fit berdan primers in to APS strips. Berdan and boxer style primers aren't the same size and the berdan type would be either too tight or too loose in the strips. This could lead to uneven seating or just more frustration than its worth.

[Geilt]

Ok, I just ordered the equipment I need to get reloading minus the gun powder. Any recommendations on powder for the 7.62 nato round? I was able to find some Berdan primers on GB as suggested and since all of the brass I currently have access to is SA or Pakistani I went ahead and purchased the RCBS Berdan depriming tool as well. Is it possible to seat Berdan primers using standard dies or will I have to do it with the RCBS tool?

Please excuse my complete lack of technical knowledge on the subject of reloading. I am just getting started. :confused:

I like, actually to be more accurate my two Cetmes like, BLC-2 powder for reloading NATO 7.62. You can find it in 1lb bottles up to 5 or 8 pound kegs. Start with the one pounder which should give you enough powder for between 150 and 175 rounds with a bit left over.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

Are you asking if you can use standard sizing dies with a decapping pin to remove the berdan primer? If so, the answer is no. Boxer primed cases use a centered flash hole through which the decapping pin pushes the primer out of the cup. Berdan primed cases have an anvil in the center of the primer cup with two flash holes on either side of the anvil. If you try to use a standard die on a berdan primed case you'll break the decapping pin and, unlikely but possible, damage the die itself.

Ok, I have ordered the RCBS tool for removing Berdan primers. From what I have gathered, it works quite well, but there is a learning curve, which is fine. I enjoy a challenge :icon_biggrin:



I use the RCBS depriming tool to remove berdan primers. I then use the RCBS hand priming tool to seat both boxer and berdan primers. The biggest thing to make sure of is that the new berdan primers properly fit in the tool you're using. What I wouldn't recommend is trying to fit berdan primers in to APS strips. Berdan and boxer style primers aren't the same size and the berdan type would be either too tight or too loose in the strips. This could lead to uneven seating or just more frustration than its worth.

I guess my original question was more based on seating new primers. Since this is my first venture in reloading I just ordered a Lee aniversary kit. They are pretty cheap, but I have heard pretty decent things about them for a beginner. Initially I didn't realize that the kit came with the Lee Auto prime, which should hopefully be able to seat the new Berdan primers. When I asked about seating the primers, I thought I would only have the .308 dies and a press. Guess I should pay a little more attention :sleepy:. Thank you for the help.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

I like, actually to be more accurate my two Cetmes like, BLC-2 powder for reloading NATO 7.62. You can find it in 1lb bottles up to 5 or 8 pound kegs. Start with the one pounder which should give you enough powder for between 150 and 175 rounds with a bit left over.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will see if I can find some locally. I was going to order some online with my reloading equipment, but with hazmat fees and other "special" handling charges, the shipping was going to cost more than the powder.:eek:

I went to the Hodgdon reloading data website and the BLC2 powder recommendation for a 150 gr bullet was 45 gr starting and 48 gr max. I'm not sure if this data is for commercial brass though. I will be using mil-spec brass. Should I start out lighter or possible with more powder?

[Geilt]

Thanks for the suggestion. I will see if I can find some locally. I was going to order some online with my reloading equipment, but with hazmat fees and other "special" handling charges, the shipping was going to cost more than the powder.:eek:

I went to the Hodgdon reloading data website and the BLC2 powder recommendation for a 150 gr bullet was 45 gr starting and 48 gr max. I'm not sure if this data is for commercial brass though. I will be using mil-spec brass. Should I start out lighter or possible with more powder?

If you have a local gun shop or a 'big box' store like Cabellas or Bass Pro you may be able to special order it and totally avoid any hazmat charges.

You probably don't want to use more powder as the capacity of milspec brass is lower. If you were to use more powder you'd increase pressure which could lead to all sorts of bad things.

I do recall a post on another forum and the general consensus was to start with the lowest weight charge and reduce it by 1 grain. You can the start to slowly build up form there. NEVER EVER EVER try to reach the recommended maxium charge on a semi-auto. Another little rule is to NEVER EVER EVER compress a double-base powder and I believe BLC-2 is such a powder. I say this because with the milspec brass having a lower capacity than commercial 308, you'll reach the compressed load before you would on commercial.

The Hornday manual has a small section on reloading for Military Service Rifles chambered in "308". I'll check it when I get home and post what they recommend for BLC-2 and what kind of case they were using when building up the tables.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

There is a Cabellas fairly close to where I live. I checked on their website and they seem to carry the BLC2 powder. I guess I'll head down there with my fingers crossed.

[Geilt]

I need to correct something I said earlier.

Previously I said BLC-2 is available in 1 pound bottles and 5 or 8 pound kegs. While looking through the Hodgson material last night I saw it is only available in 1 and 8 pound quantities.

[Seattlefungus]

One thing to watch for on Boxer primed Mil Spec brass is a primer pocket crimp. Some of it will have a crimp on the casing base. Putting a dimple on the primer pocket for retention. You can bust a lot of decapping pins on a press. The only product I know that deals with it is Dillon. They make a swag press that pops them. You only have to do it once for each, by hand. Kinda like using the RCBS Berdan decapping tool. (You use that like an old fashion bottle-opener, on each primer. The primer pocket is a different depth and the primer anvil is designed differently than the boxer. I do know some folks have had some success in using boxer primers in berdan casings... As to the questions regarding using the primer tool on the press for seating berdan primers, I've been told it does work. Tho I can not say from personal experience. A lot of competition shooters like to use a hand primer press as a separate process as they like the primers to be seated in a consistent manner. So they get something like the RCBS or Lee hand primer press, as it allows them to "feel" the seating... Reloading is like cooking... A million possibilities with the different components available. Getting different results with different primers, powder, casing, and of course bullets...

[Geilt]

There are a couple of main choices with some "homegrown" ideas.

RBCS:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=447022

Dillion: (towards the bottom of the page)
http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=15&min=0&dyn=1&cookieClean=1

I've heard of people using a small diameter steel punch to do it but I think there would be too much of a chance to either bend the punch or screw up the brass.

[rep30cal]

Just to add my two cents on the primer issue, Boxer and Berdan primers
can not be interchanged as they are different sizes in diameter.
Boxer primers are .210 of an inch in diameter for large rifle calibers such
as 7.62 NATO, .303, 7.62x54R, 8mm and ect.
Berdan primers are .217 of an inch in diameter for large rifle calibers as
listed above. That .017 of an inch difference will allow you to put a Boxer
primer in a Berdan brass, turn it over and the primer will fall out. Also the
anvil in the Berdan brass would keep the Boxer primer from seating all the
way into the primer pocket, it will stick out about 1/16 inch, you wouldn't
want a bolt closing on that. Boxer primers are also taller or deeper than
Berdan so they have different seating depths, thus the 1/16 inch above.
There are some oddball sized Berdan brass you will run into once in a
while, I had some "PINDAD 85" stamped that was .212 diameter and there
are no Berdan primers listed in that size and it was way too tight to try
and set a large rifle Berdan primer into. I am not an expert but I will try to
help out with what I know first hand.

[robocop10mm]

Hey JayGee, you must be in south Austin. If you get up north, the Sportsmans warehouse in RR has BLC-2 in 1 and 8 pounders. Priced reasonably. I use 47.5 gr of BLC-2 behind a 147 fmj or 150 SP in military brass. Even with the various brass I still get MOA (minute of a$$hole) accuracy out of my HK or CETME.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

There are a couple of main choices with some "homegrown" ideas.

RBCS:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=447022

Dillion: (towards the bottom of the page)
http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=15&min=0&dyn=1&cookieClean=1

I've heard of people using a small diameter steel punch to do it but I think there would be too much of a chance to either bend the punch or screw up the brass.

Has anyone tried using this product to remove the crimps:

http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0002928210623a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=40&Ntt=rcbs&noImage=0&Ntk=Products&QueryText=rcbs&Ntx=matchall&N=4887&Nty=1

[JayGeeWentWorth]

Hey JayGee, you must be in south Austin. If you get up north, the Sportsmans warehouse in RR has BLC-2 in 1 and 8 pounders. Priced reasonably. I use 47.5 gr of BLC-2 behind a 147 fmj or 150 SP in military brass. Even with the various brass I still get MOA (minute of a$$hole) accuracy out of my HK or CETME.


Actually, I'm pretty much in the middle of Austin, basically right in between Cabelas and Sportsman's warehouse. Thanks for the info, I'll definitely head up north to get my powder :icon_biggrin:

[JayGeeWentWorth]

One other thing. These crimps that everyone keeps talking about, what exactly do they look like? Are they visible from the outside of the case or do you have to have empty brass?

[rep30cal]

The crimps are on the very edge of the primer pocket, it just presses
over a little bit of the brass to hold the primer in. Some of the brass,
like US stuff has a crimp all the way around the primer and you will see
a circle marked on the brass around the primer. Some brass just use a
couple of staking marks to hold the primer in and you will see like three
punch marks spaced around the primer. This is what is used on a lot
of the foreign stuff.

[Anthropy]

You don't have to use a special "tool" to remove berdan primers if there is no crimp. I have used the hydraulic method that I tired out on the Swiss GP-11 ammo. I used a shell holder filled the case 3/4 full with water, then used I think a 5/16 in steel dowel inserted in the case mouth. Smack with hammer.

Out poped the primer.

Of course I tried that when there was a hope of getting some berdan primers. Since then I pretty much abandoned the idea and stuck with boxer stuff.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

Well, I went to Sportsman Warehouse today and picked up and RCBS primer pocket swager combo so I think I should be all set up to reload military brass that has berdan crimped primers. I also got some powder. I was hoping to get some Hodgdon BLC2, but they were all out of stock. So, I went ahead and got some Hodgdon Benchmark because it has pressures that are a little lower than the BLC2 and is also recommended for .308. Hopefully, this will work out ok.

[bullseye]

Don't forget to buy a few extra decapping pins while you are at it. You will break some and having a spare handy gets you back to work. :thumbup:

[rep30cal]

JayGee, you do know that the RCBS swager combo will not work on
Berdan brass don't you? It is great to remove the crimp on large and
small Boxer, but you will smash the anvil in the the Berdan stuff.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

JayGee, you do know that the RCBS swager combo will not work on
Berdan brass don't you? It is great to remove the crimp on large and
small Boxer, but you will smash the anvil in the the Berdan stuff.

I'll admit that at first I didn't realize that, but when I inspected the tool I came to the conclusion that it would probably damage the anvil. Oh well, I wanted to be set up to reload boxer primed military brass anyway. I also purchased the RCBS Berdan Decapping tool. Will I need anything else to handle berdan primed brass?

[rep30cal]

The easiest way to remove the crimp on the Bredan brass is the LEE
Chamfer Tool with the modification I told about in the "Using Berdan
Primers" thread. The Lee tool is only like three bucks and to alter it
with a Dremel is easy, BTW the LEE tool is hardened so a drill bit is
not going to work. If I can be any help at all, let me know.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

The easiest way to remove the crimp on the Bredan brass is the LEE
Chamfer Tool with the modification I told about in the "Using Berdan
Primers" thread. The Lee tool is only like three bucks and to alter it
with a Drimmel is easy, BTW the LEE tool is hardened so a drill bit is
not going to work. If I can be any help at all, let me know.

Right on. The kit I ordered comes with a Lee Chamfer tool and I have a dremel with a couple of spare sander drum holders. I just read over your instructions again in the other thread and I will definitely give your method a shot.

[rep30cal]

When you put the hole in the end of the LEE tool, try to stay in the end
and try not to shorten the depth of the tool. Go slow and fit it so it just
clears the anvil, if you try to grind it so the hole appears, it will take
away the point and the pointier it is the better it will fit in the pocket.

[JayGeeWentWorth]

What dremel attachment did you use to modify the Lee tool?

[rep30cal]

I am not sure of the part number, maybe 7144, maybe not. It is a diamond
type pointed tool, since the chamfer tool is hardened, I just went nice and
slow with the bit to make the hole. Remember go a little ways and check
to see if the hole is a little bigger around than the anvil and take away as little of the point of the chamfer tool as possibe, like the one on the left,
I went crazy on the one on the right and it is worthless now.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8828/reloadingpicsir3.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=reloadingpicsir3.jpg)