less leathal 12ga.

[Player]

my buddy and i were talking about how messed up it is that sometimes people get shot for intruding and they actually sue your butt for excessive force and actually win

so he came up with wanting to load his 12ga. with less leathal 12 ga. shots...
now this comes up, how practical is this? what do you guys think a 12 ga. rubber ball shot would do to an intruder? i'd imagine even a rubber ball, if it's flying at you at 900fps, it'd do something bad to you.

wouldn't that be better if they ever try to sue you, that you did everything you could to shoot less leathal rounds instead of buckshot?


it'd kinda be sickly funny seeing some dude who tried to break in, getting popped and laying on the ground moaning and squirming when the cops come... just to learn that we used less leathal shots...



so what do you guys think??

[okie shooter]

Henry, the South Africians and the Isralies actually have used much "non lethal" ammo, but rubber still still kill, even the sand bag launchers can kill the right person. Watch the beginning of the movie "The Hunter" with Steve McQueen, he used a 40mm bean bag to deck a guy in the opening.

[Milsurp]

Henry try this site. They carry this ammo. Make sure you check your local laws on this stuff as rules are different in reguards to this and regular ammo. http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html

[nalioth]

To be brutally honest, in our society of today, you are gonna be sued for defending yourself.

Whether you use rubber bullet or lead ones.

[k98k792]

Across a room almost anything is deadly from a shotgun.

[tump]

kill them! then they can't sue. (their family can but they can't):icon_biggrin:

[hunter_la5]

you shouldnt have to endanger yourself by using less effective means of self-defense just to avoid lawsuits. pump 'em full of lead and worry about it later.

a lawsuit is a very nice alternative to being dead. and as tump said, dead men can't file lawsuits...

[GearShanty]

Watch the beginning of the movie "The Hunter" with Steve McQueen, he used a 40mm bean bag to deck a guy in the opening.

Thanks Okie! I wa talking about that movie over the weekend, but couldn't remember the name.

[CETME .308]

a lawsuit is a very nice alternative to being dead. and as tump said, dead men can't file lawsuits...

But their family can--that is the sad part.

[jlpskydive]

But their family can--that is the sad part.

Great go ahead 50% of nothing is well...... nothing they can have 50% of my debt...... Dam I need an intruder to break in so I can get sued. :America:

[AK AJ]

I always thoght using #6 bird shot on an intruder was a "less than lethal round"? :icon_biggrin:

AJ

[rpmfly2]

I always thoght using #6 bird shot on an intruder was a "less than lethal round"? :icon_biggrin:

AJ

Hell, my all time favorite has always been #9! The Doc's love diggin that powder out of theives and intruders:2pistol:!

[iocane]

How about the old fashioned rock salt? There was a local gun store owner who said it worked good for chasing off someone who broke into his property. He also happenned to be stuck in a wheel chair and said he could fire away knowing a jury would see him as being justified.
How deadly would rock salt be? It really must sting really bad. If someone is close enough to get killed by a less then lethal round, maybe they are a lethal enough threat to warrant it. Of course on the other hand is caught with a gun with non-lethal rounds and the opponent has real bullets and is just out of the limited range, tad of a problem there. Maybe have the third bullet be a real one. Or have something else as backup. Its hard to have just the right tool for the job on short notice.

There also happens to be mace shot gun shells. That must be a lot less likely to actually kill anyone. Wouldn't want to use one indoors though.

[bullseye]

Personally, if someone enters my home unanounced, they will get some 000 buck. We just had a baby and have 2 other boys plus the wife. I absolutely will not have that crap! If they make you pull a gun, use it and worry about it later. If you aren't going to use it, help them load your stuff then join HCI and hope they don't shoot you on their way out. I can replace everything but the family, and have done so after a house fire. It sucks, but the family comes first. It should not be hard to get a better lawyer that a criminal's family, they usually don't have much money to afford a good one.
Less than lethal can be used against you just as well, if you maim them. You can get stuck caring for the poor bastard's bills for ever then what if he comes back later? Or maybe you just wanted to hurt them real bad to teach them a lesson? You car get screwed real bad in court in my opinion using less than lethal in the house, it is deadly at that range.

[Seattlefungus]

My State, Washington, does have it's share of screwy laws. One, tho I think is by far the greatest I've seen around. "A resident may infer that an intruder unlawfully entering a residence is there to do them harm" Translated: Deadly force is justified... There has never been a resident shooting a burglar prosecuted in our State... (At least in the archives I checked for the last 50 years I have access too) I was bored and curious and worked in a research and policy section...

[bullseye]

There has never been a resident shooting a burglar prosecuted in our State...


And that's the way it should be. :)

[jfowl31]

They dont even have to enter your residence in Texas... I could shoot a guy for busting the window on my truck or taking my air compressor outta the bed.

I love my state! My 12-gauge stays loaded with 00 Buck, the Cetme with 110 gr v-max, the 22 with Stingers, the Glock with SXT HP's... if they come with more than that, I'll help them load my stuff.

Better to be judged by 12 than be carried by 6........

[Player]

wellllllllllllllllllllll
i went out to the range to test out the rubber ball shots.. ugh.. why the hell do they call it less leathal? busted just as much stuff as my pistols did

[jfowl31]

BTW, dont shoot steel with rubber balls....... bad things can happen. We had a couple zingers back at us one time.

I forgot to mention earlier. A hunting buddy of mine owns a Remington 10 gauge SA that he had some rounds made for that were 3 steel balls with holes drilled in them and they were connected with piano wire. I wouldnt call them less-lethal, but it sounded like a damn cool idea for slicing watermelons... or arms/legs/necks.... you get the idea.

[robocop10mm]

Remember they are called "Less Lethal". They can and often times are lethal. Since they are still potentially lethal you still can incur the same legal problems. In Texas you should be in fear of imminemt serious bodily injury or death before you engage with deadly force (Yes Jfowl, you can use deadly force to prevent the consequences of theft at night, just not the best idea).

If you are in fear for your life (or the life of a loved one) and you respond with less than lethal force, how great was that fear? Personal injury attorneys love to twist things like this and get sympathy for the a$$hole criminal.

My advise is respond in a manner equal to your percieved threat. If you are in fear for your life, respond appropriately. When yours is the only story to be told, you will prevail.

Getting less lethal munitions that are made in an appropriate manner with the proper safe guards is not easy. There are some fly by might products that have no R&D, no liability insurance and no one to cover your donkey when they do not perform as advertised. The stuff LE uses is heavily researched, calibrated as well as can be expected and inisured for millions of $'s. This stuff is hard for a civilian to get.

[cetme]

Don't do it. The problem you run into is that you could end up with a manslaughter charge. At close range plastic or rubber projectiles will still kill someone and then since your using "less lethal" ammo there is a strong argument that the death/great bodily harm would be unintentional leaving you with manslaughter and no legal defence.

Second point a firearm is not a tool of modulating force, there is no "less lethal" or "only wing him" options It is a tool of deadly force no matter what you do with it.

[MID]

I poured out the #7shot, and then poured in some citronella wax. The wax slug at 10ft still went through a galvanised bucket form the citronella candle.

Why because i wanted too.

[kevin]

kinda off the subject but in a movie a guy used a shotgun loaded with dimes, cant remember which one but since your testing ammo out, that would be interesting to see

ive also heard of people using popcorn in shotguns for less than lethal, i have no idea what happens when it fires or how bad it is, that popcorn may act as regular pellets would though

[okie shooter]

kinda off the subject but in a movie a guy used a shotgun loaded with dimes, cant remember which one but since your testing ammo out, that would be interesting to see

ive also heard of people using popcorn in shotguns for less than lethal, i have no idea what happens when it fires or how bad it is, that popcorn may act as regular pellets would though

On the dimes, I imagine that pattern would open up quickly, due to the flat shape being unstable out of the barrel, The same with corn, uneven shape would create some flyers for sure. As for penetration, not sure what it takes to penetrate skin, but bb's will from slow air guns to show what little it takes.

[MID]

kinda off the subject but in a movie a guy used a shotgun loaded with dimes, cant remember which one but since your testing ammo out, that would be interesting to see

ive also heard of people using popcorn in shotguns for less than lethal, i have no idea what happens when it fires or how bad it is, that popcorn may act as regular pellets would though

young guns II

Movie about billy the kid, and the regulators.

[7.62-chunker]

I just had to post this one:
" A dead Man Tells No Tales" that was quoted to me long ago by a LEO.
If it ever comes down to some unwanted intruder in my Dig, oobuck, or the 1911 will be the deciding factor. I'll face the trial by 12 before I worry if I have to face the tressspaser trying to harm my family or me, or taking to take my stuff.
just my .02

[Damien]

When I was transporting for a recovery agency I got hit with a load of rock salt boy did it sting.Hurt like hell.

[jfowl31]

but did it stop you in your tracks?

also, would t have stopped you in your tracks if you were hopped up on some sort of drug?

afte rbeing shot with it, and seeing its effects on you, would you use it on someone else if your life was in danger or would you use just regular buck shot?

[hunter_la5]

I wonder if this would work as a less lethal round :lol2: how about a big piece of hard rubber to the chest at a few hundred feet per second? :eek: couldnt be too different from a rubber baton from a shotgun...


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/hunter_la5/P1010016.jpg

[Player]

don't know buddy, might be kinda hard explaining why you shot someone with a rifle grenade

[kevin]

i can see it now, the media would have a headline saying:

Man shot with rifle grenade launched from an ak47 machine gun assualt rifle

[robocop10mm]

I saw a video, thinik it was on you tube, where they tested the dimes thing. 30-40 cents worth of fliers.