Westboro got it in the a$$ :)

[bullseye]

looks like they will have to take out a loan for this one. I hope it stands and doesn't get overturned.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/

[Patria Povo]

Yeh, well, they shoulda locked that dude up in a cell with 'Big Bubba' for a night or two ..... but that's still cool.

[robocop10mm]

Not that I agree with the church on this one but, I guess the 1st Ammendment (especially freedom of speech and assembly) do not apply.
First the erosion of rights for peole like this and then the removal of the entire Bill of Rights. The slippery slope may have gotten slipperier and steeper with this one.

Hate speech is subjective and the reason our Founding Fathers protected it in the very first Ammendment to our Constitution.

Radicals are dangerous no matter if they are on the left or the right but, once we silence one segment it opens the door to silence us all.

[okie shooter]

You all think this will end fred and his family for all of this, I think you are mistaken. The man and his family are all lawyers in addition to being members if this church, thus I imagine it may inconvenience them, but they can always fold the church, reestablish a new one and be back in busness in no time, as I imagine they will. I have lived in the area all of my life, he is not going to let something like a judgement stop him from doing what he feels he needs to do.

[Old Jimmy]

He did a vets funeral in Ky where I am from. A motorcycle gang stopped to help him and the gang ended up beating the crap out of the whole bunch. Then 'Fred" tried to sue the sheriffs office for not protecting him. Thats why some of his signs say 'Kentucky Taliban". The kid being buried was a good friend of everyone in the whole county and did not deserve his funeral being dishonored like that. I think the gang stopped WAY to early because the boy was not gay but they carry signs trying to make people think they were.
Rant over

Old Jimmy

[rustypirate]

Your rights, or anybody else's end when they directly affect the rights or wellbeing of others.

People can waffle on as much as they want about the first amendment, but if your speach invades someone else's privacy or character, then you have exceeded the bounds of your rights. That is why there are laws for things like slander and libel.

[robocop10mm]

I agree that your rights end when they infringe upon another persons rights. I believe the case law will show that a funeral at a cemetary is a public type area and as such protests (however distateful) are still protected. You do not have a right to privacy in a public place. I also agree the protestors are looking for a legal fight. Well, they got one. They will likely pop up again in a different name to the same crap again.

The death of a soldier is God's retribution for America's tolerance of homosexuality? I personally think this is a stupid idea. Yes, America has taken a wrong turn and needs to get back on track but to interfere in a funeral of one of our best and brightest is shameful :nonono:but, (perhaps) protected speech.

[Geilt]

There is a fine balance that must be struck between freedom of speech and protecting the equally important rights of privacy. While I am 100% against Westboro and what they view as the way to get their message out, they do have the constitutional right to free speech in a public place. The family and friends of the fallen also have a right to privacy but it has been well established that privacy doesn't extend to public venues.

Like a lot of things in the media, they aren't expecting to get results from the protests themselves but they are getting their message out but by ruffling feathers. As long as the media covers this type of behavior, people will do whatever they feel is necessary to get in front of the cameras.

The easiest way to stop this behavior is to stop reporting and reacting to it. When they realize that their message is falling on deaf ears and they aren't getting the coverage they used to, they'll find other ways to get their message of hate out.

It would be interesting to see their reaction to a protest during the funeral of one of their members. I can see it now... a sea of transsexuals and leather men holding signs and making out. The Village People singing in the background while the local chapter of Dykes on Bikes do burnouts. Hey... Freedom of Speech applies to everyone Westboro...

[Old Jimmy]

A veterans funeral or any other funeral is NO PLACE for political grandstanding .

Do you see these people[and I use that term only because they are bipeds] at gay peoples funerals, NO, just veterans whos families are greiving over the loss of a person defending our country.The veteran died doing what the protesters were TOO cowardly to do themselves so what gives them the right. They talk about the gays but do do it at their funerals because the ACLU would be on em like a ton of bricks with Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson on top of the heap on their soapbox.

Old Jimmy
P.S. if I would have been at the funeral in Ky where the motorcycle vets beat these pansies up I would have been at the front of the line beating them.

[rustypirate]

I agree that your rights end when they infringe upon another persons rights. I believe the case law will show that a funeral at a cemetary is a public type area and as such protests (however distateful) are still protected. You do not have a right to privacy in a public place.

While you are right in that a Cemetary is a public place, I feel that under certain circumstances privacy can be expected in a public venue. For example Hospitals are public places, but a certain degree of privacy is implied and expected. Likewise a public restroom is a public place with an implied degree of privacy.

A funeral is a private ceremony, not open to just anybody, even if it is held in a publicly accessable venue. The nature of the ceremony implies a degree of privacy that these people violated.

As I stated earlier, I am not a lawyer, but even so, I am sure I could argue this point in court successfully.

[Phirebug]

as much as i would like to see these people lined up and shot like a sick animal, the fact that they CAN show up and do this vile &@$! tells me that those guys didn't die in vain.

it's kind of a morbid way to look at it and i'm sorry if i offended anybody. please don't read this as any kind of support or sympathy for these <i can't even think of a word>

but i think it's a blessing that we live in a country where we are given SO MUCH freedom and asked SO LITTLE in return for it. this is why i'm so proud to be an American.
PLEASE don't get me wrong...these people have pushed that freedom so far beyond the bounds of decency that it makes me ill...they really ought to just be shot (or worse). but i'm glad that we have so much freedom.

i hope you guys know what i mean and don't think that i'm supporting them. i'm just glad for the institution that protects our freedom so ferociously that even this sort of action is protected.

[Norton]

Finally they got something in the way of a payback.. I think they are a bunch of crackpots and kooks who seem to live for attention.
They battled with the gays for a while and I think the gays figured out that kooky church was just baiting them. If you listen to the news, the gays pay them no mind anymore. That is why I think they moved on to Combat Killed in action and War vets in general. They know they will touch a nerve just as if they burnt a flag. They desperately want these bikers and other pro American types to punch one of their own and get attention and maybe even a lawsuit.
Jimmy says a Kentucky Motorcyle gang beat one of them up, nothing could make me happier. But I think they wanted to confront that gang as that seems to be their M.O.
So they got their wish..
Anyway I don't know how anybody could keep their cool under such circumstances:
God Bless that Biker Gang

[Geilt]

While you are right in that a Cemetary is a public place, I feel that under certain circumstances privacy can be expected in a public venue. For example Hospitals are public places, but a certain degree of privacy is implied and expected. Likewise a public restroom is a public place with an implied degree of privacy.

A funeral is a private ceremony, not open to just anybody, even if it is held in a publicly accessable venue. The nature of the ceremony implies a degree of privacy that these people violated.

As I stated earlier, I am not a lawyer, but even so, I am sure I could argue this point in court successfully.

You're talking oranges and tangerines.

Medical records have only recently become private information. It took the establishment of HIPPA to gain those protections. Even with those protections there are exceptions included in any insurance policies you carry, law enforcement can still get an injunction to open your medical records along with other exceptions. Hospitals are not public places. They are privately owned and are considered private property.

There are no legally established rights calling for privacy in public bathrooms. I'll point out the piss trough commonly found in sports stadiums. You're letting it all hangout for anyone who cares to glance down to see your junk. There are also no laws requiring doors on the stalls. It is well within the rights of any business owner to remove the doors. I personally don't know why someone would want to see another person drop a duece...

I agree though. Funerals SHOULD be equally protected but they are held in public spaces and unless the cemetary is posted as private property, no trespassing signs are plainly visible surrounding the entire perimeter and arrangements are required to visit the burial sites, there's not much LEGALLY that can be done.

Folks make a lot of assumptions in how much privacy they are guaranteed. counting the number of cameras you walk past in a day. You'll probably only catch a third of them. Anything you say in a public space can legally be recorded. Seriously, look in to the laws regarding privacy. You'll be sadly shocked.

[Big Steve]

I don't think that it would erode our rights too much to make this kind of sh!t illegal. A family's right to bury their dead in peace should over ride any right to protest something.
Steve

[renegade]

Your rights, or anybody else's end when they directly affect the rights or wellbeing of others.

People can waffle on as much as they want about the first amendment, but if your speach invades someone else's privacy or character, then you have exceeded the bounds of your rights. That is why there are laws for things like slander and libel.

Amen brother!

[renegade]

Not that I agree with the church on this one but, I guess the 1st Ammendment (especially freedom of speech and assembly) do not apply.
First the erosion of rights for peole like this and then the removal of the entire Bill of Rights. The slippery slope may have gotten slipperier and steeper with this one.

Hate speech is subjective and the reason our Founding Fathers protected it in the very first Ammendment to our Constitution.

Radicals are dangerous no matter if they are on the left or the right but, once we silence one segment it opens the door to silence us all.

The 1st Ammendment is a right, but just like any other rights, a right can be abused to the point, it is no longer a right, but a nuisance, and does not serve the greater good. The possession of such rights demand a responsible person possess them.

I work in technology, and over the last few years, as good as technology is, it can be abused. I am beginning to believe we are not responsible enough as a race, to use the gifts we've been given responsibly.

Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, can be carried to such an extreme that it becomes an act of zealotry rather than doing anything for the greater good. I sincerely hope the human race sooner or later, backs up and takes a good hard look at themselves, and quits worrying about what Gods is going to do to us, heck he won't have to do a thing, if we continue down this path, we'll do it ourselves.

I have to sit back an look at everything that has been said about this, and how it has not only sparked controversy, but I will bet it has spurred on some hateful feelings as well.

[renegade]

as much as i would like to see these people lined up and shot like a sick animal, the fact that they CAN show up and do this vile &@$! tells me that those guys didn't die in vain.

it's kind of a morbid way to look at it and i'm sorry if i offended anybody. please don't read this as any kind of support or sympathy for these <i can't even think of a word>

but i think it's a blessing that we live in a country where we are given SO MUCH freedom and asked SO LITTLE in return for it. this is why i'm so proud to be an American.
PLEASE don't get me wrong...these people have pushed that freedom so far beyond the bounds of decency that it makes me ill...they really ought to just be shot (or worse). but i'm glad that we have so much freedom.

i hope you guys know what i mean and don't think that i'm supporting them. i'm just glad for the institution that protects our freedom so ferociously that even this sort of action is protected.

Phirebug, I understand what you are saying, but likewise if these people are the pervayors (sp?) of Christianity, then I am happy to be an infidel and heathen if it makes me that. These people are opportunists and zealots, just like militant Islam is, they are no different they just choose to hide behind a religion to forward their own interests without consideration of others, so if these are surviving Christians, I'll be glad to go to hell. I am ashamed that our men and my brothers would have to die for the likes of these people, much less have to suffer at their hands, and blatant disrespect. It also, makes it much easier to justify war on religious zealotry, these people are imposing their beliefs on everybody, they aren't winning hearts and mind into Jesus' fold. They are self righteous, condescending, and frankly I believe their behavior arrogant. Eventually they will reap what they have sown.

As the scripture says, there is a time for every purpose under heaven. You know the rest.

[Optimus Prime]

Well they may be able to overturn the invasion of privacy part of the verdict, but I see a hard time of trying to overturn the other two, especially the emotional distress.

[iocane]

They just are another batch of nuts doing something crazy to get attention. Like the artist whose art work involves a crucifix in urine, same idea. I doubt if there is any real beleif system at work here. Just another crazy lune wanting attention. One of the quickest way to get attention is to do something that really ticks off a lot of people and then proclaim some phony great glorious reason they need to do what ever they are doing. This isn't really a free speech issue. The reason why what they are doing isn't illegal is because who would have thought someone would someday do something nutty like that.

[renegade]

What part of the constitution requires tolerance of abuses of privileges? So, all of the incarcerated people had the rights as adults to make choices that were against the law, basically they infringed on and damaged someone else's rights, that what put them there. So, just because they have that ability to have freedom of choice, should we release them? And be tolerant of that right?

I believe there was a precedent case that had something to do with yelling "fire!!" in a crowded theater, yes I do believe they have to be accountable, they have exercised the same lack of judgment any criminal has, lawyers or not.

I am sorry, as a former soldier, I am embarrassed that our society has come to accept this kind of behavior as a right. This is not the rights I served for, I don't know about anyone else, but this is not what I swore to uphold and defend, there is no defense for it.

Nothing is "free", it costs something. It's time those that don't pay, start paying the price of the freedoms we have, most take them for granted, if everyone had to serve, and do something for the greater good to protect those rights, I think that society, as a whole may look at the gifts we have and hopefully start being better stewards of them.

[renegade]

If I offended anyone, I apologize, some of these rants are my personal beliefs, thats the rights I believe in, I never mean to agitate, or impose them on others. I probably should've kept my mouth shut.

[Rampager]

1st amendment or not, all I know is if I were burying a loved one and some jack-ass disrupts what should be a respectful dignified ceremony, insulting the memory of the deceased family member who died fighting for his or her country….

Well let’s just say I’ll plead temporary insanity after the fact (isn't that my right?).

The way I see it if they want to protest gays or whatever, fine…go to San Francisco and block traffic or something...but these greiving families have nothing to do with their twisted logic.

[GreenWolf]

Your rights, or anybody else's end when they directly affect the rights or wellbeing of others.

I have to agree with Rusty here. The Westboro gang was trying to hide behind the First Amendment. The First Amendment wasn't the issue. It was their cruel behavior and poor taste. It's like a bank robber trying to use the Second Amendment to get a charge of armed robbery dismissed. They got whacked. Good.

[GreenWolf]

i hope you guys know what i mean and don't think that i'm supporting them. i'm just glad for the institution that protects our freedom so ferociously that even this sort of action is protected.
No, I don't think that you are excusing their behavior. But consider if we ever become so open-minded that we have trouble distinguishing between right and wrong. Moral relativism...or something like that....

[Big Steve]

If I offended anyone, I apologize, some of these rants are my personal beliefs, thats the rights I believe in, I never mean to agitate, or impose them on others. I probably should've kept my mouth shut.
It's cool Renegade.
This forum is a perfect place express your personal beliefs.
It's too bad those A-holes think someones funeral is a good place.
I'm glad it turned out to be a good place for them to get their ass kicked!
Steve

[rustypirate]

I guess that is my point,

There is a place and time for protest, and the available media outlets to do so peacefully.

When people CHOOSE to behave in an inflamitory manner and disrupt other's meetings, then they have CHOSEN to be inflamitory and should pay the price.

Regardless of the CRIMINAL legality of their gathering, I am sure that the families of the fallen soldiers should be able to sue for CIVIL damages for pain / suffering/ mental anguish, etc.

[Geilt]

I guess that is my point,

There is a place and time for protest, and the available media outlets to do so peacefully.

When people CHOOSE to behave in an inflamitory manner and disrupt other's meetings, then they have CHOSEN to be inflamitory and should pay the price.

Regardless of the CRIMINAL legality of their gathering, I am sure that the families of the fallen soldiers should be able to sue for CIVIL damages for pain / suffering/ mental anguish, etc.

I totaly agree with you on that point Rusty. The lack of a gaunrantee of privacy in a public place is one thing... outright malicious intent to be inflamitory, slanderous and outright being a dick isn't permitted. The fines on those points should stand and the church forced to pay even if it means they have to sell off assets to do it.

Again, I would love to see a group confront them in an equally harsh way during the funeral of one of their members. Kind of the whole 'what goes around, comes around' thing.

[Cavalryman]

Medical records have only recently become private information. It took the establishment of HIPPA to gain those protections. Even with those protections there are exceptions included in any insurance policies you carry, law enforcement can still get an injunction to open your medical records along with other exceptions. Hospitals are not public places. They are privately owned and are considered private property.

Actually, that's incorrect. Medical records have been private and even legally privileged documents for as long as I have been in medicine. The only thing that changed significantly under HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) is that representatives of third-party payers (read: insurance companies, state and federal government) have free and unfettered access to your medical records with no requirement to request your permission or to notify you. There are a few other minor details, but that's essentially the change in a nutshell.

[Cavalryman]

1st amendment or not, all I know is if I were burying a loved one and some jack-ass disrupts what should be a respectful dignified ceremony, insulting the memory of the deceased family member who died fighting for his or her country….

Well let’s just say I’ll plead temporary insanity after the fact (isn't that my right?).

The way I see it if they want to protest gays or whatever, fine…go to San Francisco and block traffic or something...but these greiving families have nothing to do with their twisted logic.

So far, these low-life, scum-sucking, goat-raping, closet homosexual pieces of crap have had it all their own way, but it's almost inevitable that at some point they will protest at a funeral where the deceased's father or friend has terminal cancer or is just insane with grief and several of them will be killed. I can't say I'll lose any sleep over it.

[Nazgul]

This is exactly why we need more "Fighting Words" laws. I wouldn't pull this kind of crap (not that I would have anyway) because you deserve a punch in the nose if you do. Don't give me that freedom of speech crap either. Your speech ends where my ears, eyes, begin.

[ackspac]

When it became known through our local media in Ky that these jack asses were comming here to protest, allmost immediatley every-one took up to the defense of our fallen hero. A couple of OutLaw bikers at my work put out a flier to "counter" the protest. Well a bunch of vets, bikers and good-ole boys showed up and it doesnt look like the jack-asses are comming back to Ky. again for awhile. The local and State Law officers seemed to look the other way when the $hit hit the fan. This is a free country, and these jack-asses need to realize who it is that keeps them free! :America: