Situation #1

[13amu]

From time to time there are certain events that play out in this thing we all call life. As it so happens every once in a while we are all faced with “what do you do” incidents. They can occur either in our minds as what ifs or in real life where the stakes are at they’re highest. I am going to post some of the “what ifs” that I come up with and I invite all of you solve them in the way you see fit. That being said presented below is your first situation.

You have just finished having a good time at the local rifle range with the battle rifle of your choice. You are only armed with this weapon and no other. You are returning home with some unused ammunition as well as your rifle. On the way back you decide to stop at a mall for whatever reasons you wish be it hunger, thirst, the need to do some Christmas shopping, etc. After you park your vehicle and are securing it you see a person of the opposite sex park a brand-new luxury car not to far away. You are not the only one to notice so do a couple of bad guys. Those two ambush the other driver with guns drawn. One of them is committing the armed robbery and the other is the lookout. They are 60 to 80 feet away from you armed with large caliber handguns wisely you have taken cover and neither of them sees you. You are positioned to the bad guys right hand side slightly behind them what hunters would call a quartering away shot. Because the victim is not moving fast enough for his liking or (more likely) he enjoys it the robber starts roughing up the victim in a bad way. You unobtrusively retrieve your rifle, load her and make ready for action. There is no one else around that you can see and your down range is as clear as anyone can expect in this circumstance. Just for a little flavor you do not have a cell phone with you. You are alone Now What.

Matt

[nowhereman]

Well if you actually shoot the bad guys and save that poor person from certain death good... Those guys need to be shot anyway. But, when the police show up Buford T Justice will pop a cap in your ass or either disarm you. You will be critisized for shooting a scary High power weapon in a mall parking lot... You may or may not be the criminal or the hero. But when the cop shows up drop your gun!!!!!!!!!!!!

[turbothis]

i would rob the criminal and take his gun. now i got a free gun.:lolgreen:
well, maybe i would blast some rounds into a storm drain, and they would flee? isnt that how the old west worked? shot gun blast into the air and the bad guy relize they are out gunned and run?

[GreenWolf]

You have just finished having a good time at the local rifle range with the battle rifle of your choice. You are only armed with this weapon and no other. You are returning home with some unused ammunition as well as your rifle. On the way back you decide to stop at a mall for whatever reasons you wish be it hunger, thirst, the need to do some Christmas shopping, etc.
STOP!
No way would I stop at a mall, of all places, and leave my rifle "secured" in the back of my car. I'd go home, clean the rifle if I think it needed it, at least giving the exterior metal surfaces a wipe down, and secure the rifle properly.

Scenario concluded.

[LorDiego]

In a perfect world, I'd take the shoot and save the day.

In reality though, I'd hold my shot until the bad guy starts popping the victims. I'm not trying to go to jail, or get killed by the po-po, so most likely, I'll be the usefull witness.

Its sad when the fear of lawsuits against you keeps the average man from taking action when the situation is that clear.

[QuickDrawMcGraw]

Well first shot would be to the Perps Getaway vehicle .One through the radiator should do it .Second shot would be close but not contacting them so they know they are in range . This would certainly get Barney Fife and Company on the way there. a voice command to lay down there arms would be shouted and then if necessary center mass shots to the Gunman . This should get the Lookout to comply with the orders, if not he can join his partner in hell .

[rpmfly2]

In a perfect world, I'd take the shoot and save the day.

In reality though, I'd hold my shot until the bad guy starts popping the victims. I'm not trying to go to jail, or get killed by the po-po, so most likely, I'll be the usefull witness.

Its sad when the fear of lawsuits against you keeps the average man from taking action when the situation is that clear.

It is unfortunate that we live in the times we do but I would have to agree to the point where he was about to shoot the victim of the crime and drop his A _ _! Then like a good Marine I would finish the mission with the get away car perps!:America:
That being said, I know there would be alot of explaning and questions that would most likely be designed to trip me up into some form of suit. then there is the Holyer than thou group! And, every other group of idiots that will come out like ROACHES! Don't forget the liberal suck a _ _ media!

It would be best if all good citizens carried and could protect themselves.

Not to bash police so do not take this the wrong way!
I know for a fact it is a 50/50 split from all the officers I know if they would do the same thing!:airtight:

[rpmfly2]

Well first shot would be to the Perps Getaway vehicle .One through the radiator should do it .Second shot would be close but not contacting them so they know they are in range . This would certainly get Barney Fife and Company on the way there. a voice command to lay down there arms would be shouted and then if necessary center mass shots to the Gunman . This should get the Lookout to comply with the orders, if not he can join his partner in hell .

I would drop the physical threat first! Just my thoughts.

[Planning]

i am glad i live in TEXAS, you don't have to make a choice.

[k98k792]

I would shoot them then tase them. Then maybe do some shopping.

[Woodman in MO]

I'd obviousily take them out with head shots. This is provided they are still there after I grab the rifle, ammo, portable shooting bench, sandbag rest, spotting scope, laser range finder, and chronograph, set it all up and then shoot a couple of sight in shots.

After that, I'm good to go...

[nowhereman]

Don't Tase Me Bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Les48]

I think it would depend on where you live. I would fire a warning shot and hope they ran. If they didnt, well I live in Arkansas so they would be SOL.

[Woodman in MO]

well I live in Arkansas so they would be SOL.

As a Missourian, there's a joke somewhere in there.....:wink:

[pigpen]

Its sad when the fear of lawsuits against you keeps the average man from taking action when the situation is that clear.

Could not have said it better myself.

Of course I'd want to shoot the perps but I can't afford a lawyer.

Then again, I would not stop @ the mall on the way home from the range.

[Les48]

As a Missourian, there's a joke somewhere in there.....:wink:

I think that would be the old Arkansas "They needed killing" defense.

I realize this could really complicate my life for awhile but I don't think I could stand by and do nothing.

[jfowl31]

I may be told Im a pussy for this, but I'm not putting my life on the line for anyone except myself or my loved ones. I know my rights, and the laws, and I'm lawfully able to protect that woman, but I'm not risking jail time, NOR a miss and a innocent causalty I didn't see at first, NOR getting shot, NOR anything for some woman driving a nice SUV. I WILL risk those things if its a loved one or myself in that situation, but quite honestly, to me, otherwise its not worth it.

I get the popo's on the phone, tell them what I am armed with, get everything recorded so it can't be said that I went on a vigilante justice rampage, and ask them if I should fire a warning shot, but that is as far as it will go. If I knew what they were driving, the warning shot(s) would be at their car.... if not, I'd probably put a warning shot into the bed of my truck to let them know that a high-powered rifle is present, and let their minds wonder if I have the balls to shoot them. I'd shoot my own so I don't have to deal with anything except discharging a firearm in a public place, and wouldn't get any ******** for destruction of property.

Now if they turned their attention to me and my life felt threatened.... then hell yeah, I'd put 3 or 4 to center mass and reevaluate after that.

[IMBLITZVT]

I think I would shoot myself in the head for coming up with the senario :thumbup:

Number one you are breaking a law in the state of Maryland by making a stop with a gun in the car. You may not even stop to get gas in MD with a gun in the car. You may only have a gun in the car on your way to a Gun show, Shop, Range or personal property. Its great to be in a commie state.

So in my case I would re-enter my Evil SUV and make her ready for action. I would then race at full speed at the "under-privileged" City Youth. As they justly returned fire at my "over-privileged" Gas guzzling Environment killing SUV, I would swerve to miss them... in so doing hitting and killing the Victim who deserved to be killed because she was in "their" hood in her BMW. I would then stop and retrieve the BMW keys. I would then hand my keys and hers to the two "under-privileged" youth because they had a hard child hood and I am responsible for this. I would then beg them to shoot me because my Great-great-great Grand father may have done something to his Great-great-great grandfather, both of whom lived on the other side of the Atlantic. :thumbup:


From time to time there are certain events that play out in this thing we all call life. As it so ....

[weasel_master]

I would wake up from the dream knowing full well that bad guys aren't allowed to have guns.

[wonderwolf]

60-80' away huh.....well all I have to say is I hope that day I didn't decide to pack the .458 win mag...for sake of the victim who would get spattered and the perp who I didn't shoot in the head first he would be watching his partners head pop like a balloon with a 510gr soft point. :bash:


But realistically I would have some medium caliber rifle or a rim fire....If I had a clear safe shot....I would take it. Criminals should be the scared ones.

[QuickDrawMcGraw]

I would drop the physical threat first! Just my thoughts.

Im hoping this would be in my best Interest ( at Trial ) to show I tried to warn them and give them every opportunity to stop . Now I think he said my fav Military rifle is what I have . Therefore my AR-15 would drop what I wanted when I wanted after I decided that was necessary. I hope Perro doesnt find out I have an AR-15, dont anyone tell him please. Seriously , its a sad day that we need to take into consideration what we will be charged with for trying to save the lives of innocent victims with the laws the US Constituition has in place for just such behavior.

[Otis61]

I thinkI would fire some shots into their vehicle. Not just 1-2, but 10 or more, to let them know I'm serious, and to maybe startle them, and the victim, so that possibly they would release their grasp of her,and she would run away. Then they could turn their attention toward me. At this point they have a few opptions. Run, try to drive the bullet riddled car, or shoot at me. The smartest thing for them to do would be to run. In that case I would let them go, and that would be the best chance for them to get away. If they tried to drive the car it would be easily spotted by the police. If they tried to shoot it out there would be few places to get cover that my high power fmj rounds would not reach. All this in a perfect what-if senario, and WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT IS DON'T WE?

[weasel_master]

My problem with warning shots is that if I'm going to fire, it's because someone is in immediate danger of losing their life. If I fire a warning shot, to me the danger is no longer immediate. That almost comes in to the point of being the aggressor. With the provisions of concealed carry, depending on states of course, first there must be no avenue to flee, immediate threat to loss of life. If those conditions are met, I would fire. But if I fire a warning shot, this to me does not show an immediate threat, and I'd be scared of a jury with the same feelings.

[Otis61]

My problem with warning shots is that if I'm going to fire, it's because someone is in immediate danger of losing their life. If I fire a warning shot, to me the danger is no longer immediate. That almost comes in to the point of being the aggressor. With the provisions of concealed carry, depending on states of course, first there must be no avenue to flee, immediate threat to loss of life. If those conditions are met, I would fire. But if I fire a warning shot, this to me does not show an immediate threat, and I'd be scared of a jury with the same feelings.

Well you may be right. But if it works and they do flee, to me, its worth a discharge of a firearm, or distruction of property(the bad guys) charge, to save the woman that did appear to be in immediate danger.

[weasel_master]

I guess I don't see the reason to chance it. Either fully commit or walk away. I think by firing a warning shot, you may escalate the already dangerous situation.

[hunter_la5]

I guess I don't see the reason to chance it. Either fully commit or walk away. I think by firing a warning shot, you may escalate the already dangerous situation.

a big +1

when my brother took his concealed carry class, part of the instruction was done by a District Attorney. He couldn't emphasize enough: unless you have legal ground to kill the bad guy, don't even pull out your weapon, let alone fire it. If the situation is not immediately life or death, you presenting or firing a weapon will immediately escalate it to a life or death situation. And because YOU are the one one who escalated the situation, YOU no longer have the right to use deadly force, as YOU were the one that made it a life or death situation, not the bad guy.

Always use the maximum amount of force necessary, or none at all.

[Otis61]

I've often been caled "not the smartest guy in the world", but somtimes you need to make a stand, and thats where mine is.

[Grasshopper]

I don't know, I'll head to the mall after work and see if I can get myself into trouble.:nonono:
In a situation like that, passers by would see the scary guy (me) with the rifle, a mall ninja would run out to scare me with a shot to my ass with a hollow point .40 sw... with me looking into the scope at the bad guys, I'd be hit, jerk my rifle, shoot down a plane, killing 150 people in the plane and 500 people in the mall from the plane crash and the bad guys would run away and the mall ninja would get all the credit for apprehending a terrorist (me) and I'd end up with the brothers of the origional bad guys porking my ------- for the rest of my life.:icon_neutral: and the mall ninja would be the next newest action hero on TV.
I'd probribly rev the car engine, drive toward the 2 offending bad guys and stop and beep the horn, they'd probribly be on their way if the situation escalated. Most likely it would be the bad guys hoe and I'd get shot!!!!:2pistol:

[Les48]

If the situation is not immediately life or death, you presenting or firing a weapon will immediately escalate it to a life or death situation. And because YOU are the one one who escalated the situation, YOU no longer have the right to use deadly force, as YOU were the one that made it a life or death situation, not the bad guy.

Always use the maximum amount of force necessary, or none at all.

I see your point but something is seriously effed up with this line of reasoning. If someone is using a firearm to commit a crime then they have prepared themselves to commit murder. Just my thoughts but this is one reason I believe a crime committed with a firearm should be treated as attempted murder. If a criminal kills someone during a crime it should be murder one since it’s premeditated.

[tanstaafl4y]

I would back up and call in emergency close air support.


/All things considerd, I would probably not take the shot. I'd try to get good descriptions and contact the police. State laws vary but at 80 feet it would be difficult to argue self defense, and how can you be certain that the "citizen"s life is in danger.

<b>It sure would suck to shoot the lead actor in a high school video-production class project</b>

[Grasshopper]

I would back up and call in emergency close air support.


/All things considerd, I would probably not take the shot. I'd try to get good descriptions and contact the police. State laws vary but at 80 feet it would be difficult to argue self defense, and how can you be certain that the "citizen"s life is in danger.

<b>It sure would suck to shoot the lead actor in a high school video-production class project</b>


Yup, that is my second thought!

[k98k792]

Grasshopper has all the angles covered! :thumbup:

[Rampager]

OK I’m game…

First I wouldn’t have stopped at the mall with my rifle:nonono:, but having said that, I would keep a close eye on the situation and get my rifle and load it and keep it beside me while I sat in my drivers seat watching.

I would move (my vehicle) to just within distance to get the license # of the vehicle that the victim is in and or perpetrator’s license also. I would then back my vehicle away knowing full well most thugs with handguns can’t hit anything anyhow, still keeping a good visual.

I move my loaded rifle to my lap. I then proceed to lay on my horn, trying to draw all the attention I could and trying to get noticed by the bad guys, keeping one hand up by my head like I’m on a cell phone. Hopefully this will throw them off and scare them and they will leave and I’ve got a good description and their license # if they do.

If they so much as level their weapon in my direction:2pistol:, all bets are off. I pick up my rifle and use absolute deadly force, going for head shots:g3:, provided the victim is safely away.

[Norton]

I think I would try to get as close as possible, Point the rifle at the one closest to the women. Then yell HALT
If they started shooting at me I would fire back only if I had a clear shot
If they tried to drag the women into a car I would shoot for that alone.
As I would assume they would rape her, I could not let that happen.
If there was any possible thing I could do to stop it.
But I would not shoot first unlesss they shot first or it looked like she was going to be abducted
There are some things you cannot let happen.
Money from a bank can be replaced, cars have insurance..
But rape.. or murder nothing can take that back

[hunter_la5]

I see your point but something is seriously effed up with this line of reasoning. If someone is using a firearm to commit a crime then they have prepared themselves to commit murder. Just my thoughts but this is one reason I believe a crime committed with a firearm should be treated as attempted murder. If a criminal kills someone during a crime it should be murder one since it’s premeditated.

I was not talking about this situation in particular, I was talking about the idea of "firing a warning shot" in general.

Just for the record, if I saw a couple thugs using a gun in a crime, I wouldn't chance a warning shot, I'd just shoot them.

[jfowl31]

That's very heroic of many of you guys....... I personally won't spend my $$ and possibly years or life in prison protecting someone I don't know.

Really! You have no idea the background of the situation. Maybe the woman is a sleeper criminal and these 2 young men are getting their BMW back that they had stolen from them a week ago by a white woman. Now you just shot 2 guys for retrieving stolen property!

Dont shoot the guys unless you are protecting yourself and or your loved ones. Its not worth the hassle and the risk of you being wrong or missing and killing an innocent person. Get all the info you can... take pictures (most of us take our camera to the range)... call the police... and stay a safe distance away. We aren't superheros or LEO's just because we carry a gun... we carry that gun to protect ourselves, not be vigilantes protecting every single person we see in danger. Leave that to Officer Joe Blow and Superman.

[jfowl31]

BTW, if you try to "secure" a gun in your car while you go into the mall you're an idiot to begin with. That's about the worst place I can think of to secure a gun and go shopping.

[Woodman in MO]

I'm surprised no one has said that they would shoot the person of the opposite sex. After all, if you take him/her out, the bad guys would have no choice but to leave. Yet another crime stopped...

[pigpen]

Really! You have no idea the background of the situation. Maybe the woman is a sleeper criminal and these 2 young men are getting their BMW back that they had stolen from them a week ago by a white woman. Now you just shot 2 guys for retrieving stolen property!

Dont shoot the guys unless you are protecting yourself and or your loved ones. Its not worth the hassle and the risk of you being wrong or missing and killing an innocent person. Get all the info you can... take pictures (most of us take our camera to the range)... call the police... and stay a safe distance away. We aren't superheros or LEO's just because we carry a gun... we carry that gun to protect ourselves, not be vigilantes protecting every single person we see in danger. Leave that to Officer Joe Blow and Superman.

Very good points. If you become a vigilanti you run the risk of injuring a bystander & that is just more food for the anti gun people to use when they call the armed civilian a reckless threat. You just gave them fuel for the fire and have hurt the cause in general.

[13amu]

I am glad that it has got you all thinking because you never know what life will pitch at you. Please let me expound upon my original post. It is best to be prepared for what may come your way. I happen to live in Miami, Florida so stuff does happen. BTW Florida has a Castle Doctrine/No Retreat law in effect. On a personal note I was raised the old-fashioned country boy way. A man is expected to come to the aid of a lady.

1. I deliberately left out what kind of mall it was. The generic strip mall would be the most likely place for this to go down in. It so happens that one of the closest places to grab a bite to eat near the rifle range that I frequent is in a strip mall. I would not stop at a full service mall with my rifle in the car period but it could happen. If I am there for food or drink I make it a point to keep my car under constant surveillance.

2. As stated in the situation I find myself alone and without any means to summon assistance I would take the shot after careful observation and ONLY if. One, I have a CLEAR SHOT and I am positive that the downrange is clear. Florida law allows the use of lethal force to protect another person and to prevent a felony. Two, I must understand that I will get only one carefully aimed shot. As soon as I fire my advantage of surprise is lost and any subsequent shots will most likely be quick and dirty. I have had to defend my life with a firearm before so I know it gets dirty quick. If you can take the shot than good on you if not than I fully understand. You have to live with yourself and answer to God in the end.

3. The police as good as they are can only respond to crime after the fact. Most of the time that response is an average of seven minutes away. An armed robbery/shots fired call will bring them in double quick. My advice is move very slowly, lay down the rifle and do exactly what you are instructed by the police to do no argument, no attitude. DO NOT make ANY statements to the police without YOUR lawyer present. Be respectful but firm, you have the right to remain silent use it.

[Les48]

I was not talking about this situation in particular, I was talking about the idea of "firing a warning shot" in general.

Just for the record, if I saw a couple thugs using a gun in a crime, I wouldn't chance a warning shot, I'd just shoot them.

I understand and I’m not trying to disagree with what you say. I was just disagreeing with the escalation idea. This is actually some very good info to know.

What I’m saying is how do you escalate a situation that is already life and death. If a gun is involved it is a life or death situation. Anyway, if my wife is every being held at gunpoint and I’m not around, someone please help her.

[k98k792]

My experience with life or death situations is that they happen in a blink of an eye. Think about it too much and you will be in the after action report.

I saw my first person killed when I was 7, he was stabbed to death in what he thought was a fistfight. Turned out the little guys punch's were so effective because they were stab wounds. The big guys white T shirt told the story after it was too late. I have still never seen anybody look so surprised.

I saw my Mother save the lives of myself and my family,by facing down 2 murderers with a 22.cal Saturday night special,when I was a bit older.

I have seen a lot of other bad things in my life.

They all happened so fast,all you could do is react.
I ain't kidding.

It's hard for me to take this question seriously. No flame intended.

[zeropistons]

Find a phone and call the police. Tell them that kids are skating in the mall parking lot. That'll get them over really quick. I wouldn't take a shot in that situation anyway. (OK, maybe if my family or friends were involved.)

If you shoot bad guy #1 (or #2) victim #1 will probably become hostage #1. Good intentions then escalate a situation into something worse.

[IMBLITZVT]

I am glad that it has got you all thinking because you never know what life will pitch at you. ..... silent use it.

Are you a Teacher or Professor? I do just feel like I left the lecture hall! :book:

That might all be great in your state but it would land you in jail faster then your bullet hitting the Criminal. :icon_rolleyes:

IMHO, you should do what is right and if not that... at least something that will not haunt you for the rest of your years. Oh and remember its better to be Judged by 12 then carried by 6!

[jfowl31]

Anyway, if my wife is every being held at gunpoint and I’m not around, someone please help her.

No offense meant, but I probably wouldn't help her further than calling the Police on her behalf and being a credible witness for her trial.

[hunter_la5]

No offense meant, but I probably wouldn't help her further than calling the Police on her behalf and being a credible witness for her trial.

damn

I honestly can't say what I'd do never having been in such a situation (thank God), but I'd like to think I would help, regardless of the risk involved. I like to think that the desire to do what is right, overcome evil, and save the lives of others should transcend concerns of personal risk, but I suppose in practice those are little more than "comic book" ideals until one is actually placed in such a situation and learns how he will truly react.

Maybe I'm an idealist, and maybe I will find myself to be an idiot upon facing such a situation in real life

I personally don't like these "hypothetical situation" threads because I don't think it means anything until you've actually been there and experienced it for yourself. until then, how do you really know how you will react?

[jfowl31]

I made the decision I'm talking about here before I ever got me CHL. If I wanted to save every person on the street from the criminals, I'd be a LEO. I will protect myself and my loved ones (friends, family etc.) and everyone else should do the same. Not to sound rude, but that woman in the BMW should have been armed.

You guys can do what you wish saving John Q Public...... I've made my decision, and if I see a situation like this, I won't turn my back and walk away, but I'm not risking my life (or my ass...... prison) for some woman I don't know, in a situation I know nothing about.

Really, think about it. Are you telling me that a good looking white woman can't be a criminal, and those 2 guys aren't just getting their BMW back? You don't know the situation, and you are willing to go to jail or die defending someone you know NOTHING about. Now if that was a woman from my church, and I recognized her, and know who she is..... then it would definitely be a harder choice, and I would probably defend her. But just Sally Joe Blow..... no thanks, 9-1-1 for me.

The VERY MOST I would do is fire a shot into an inanimate object. i'm sure any LEO can confirm this, but the studies I have read show that a criminal is constantly ready to flee, and just needs one trigger to make him do it. If he heard a gunshot and the word "Freeze!" I bet he'd run like hell!

[jfowl31]

btw, I hate these hypotheticals as well...

[okie shooter]

For this too work out, are you prepared to be the Judge, Jury and Excutioner on a situation that you have no mortal fear of harm or danger. In most states that give you no room for armed action what so ever I think even texas, there a couple of make my day laws out there but few and far between.

Thus what if what you take as an armed robbery is the guy showing a firearm to a friend that happens to be a woman in the parking lot there too?

[jfowl31]

For this too work out, are you prepared to be the Judge, Jury and Excutioner on a situation that you have no mortal fear of harm or danger. In most states that give you no room for armed action what so ever I think even texas, there a couple of make my day laws out there but few and far between.

Thus what if what you take as an armed robbery is the guy showing a firearm to a friend that happens to be a woman in the parking lot there too?

HERE HERE! You don't know the whole situation...... stay out of it and don't be a superhero. Even Spiderman was hated! What do you think they'll do to you??????

[Les48]

I personally don't like these "hypothetical situation" threads because I don't think it means anything until you've actually been there and experienced it for yourself. until then, how do you really know how you will react?

I agree but this has given me some really useful info. I would have fired a warning shot and threatened them with a firearm. Now I believe I would hold my hand to the side of my head like I had a cell phone and yell the police are on the way. If they didn’t run I would then resort to more drastic measures.

I’ve found the answers by location and age group to be interesting. The sad thing I’ve noticed is not only are our rights to our firearms going away but also our ability to defend one another.

[jfowl31]

Defending one another has never really been something Americans have done in the general public. If there was shootout in the Old West, no one on the sidelines shot the victor. Everyone dealt with their own problems, and everyone was willing to defend themselves.

[Grasshopper]

No they are not, the laws are on the books but some laws are made to be broken. I answer to God, not some sob failed druggie lawyer/judge who thinks everybody is out to get him so "we can't have firearms" type.
I also believe that polititions that make stupid gun laws should be held responcible for the deaths they cause. "That woman coundn't get a carry permit so the bad guys got her".
Senater (fillintheblank) you are under arrest for aiding and abetting a felony, treason against the Constitution of these great states and 2nd degree murder. (if you do something that causes a murder/manslaughter, you are responcible):icon_biggrin:

[Grasshopper]

I agree but this has given me some really useful info. I would have fired a warning shot and threatened them with a firearm. Now I believe I would hold my hand to the side of my head like I had a cell phone and yell the police are on the way. If they didn’t run I would then resort to more drastic measures.

I’ve found the answers by location and age group to be interesting. The sad thing I’ve noticed is not only are our rights to our firearms going away but also our ability to defend one another.

Errr. sorry for not posting this quote....:icon_neutral:

[nowhereman]

You know you hear about these heroic type tales in the NRA stories. Please don't ask for hard evidence, but you hear stuff like granny so and so heard a noise and shot the dark figure on her poarch and it was a burglar..... Maybe when we get old it is easier to defend yourself and other people w/ going to jail.

[Les48]

Defending one another has never really been something Americans have done in the general public. If there was shootout in the Old West, no one on the sidelines shot the victor. Everyone dealt with their own problems, and everyone was willing to defend themselves.

Okay, this happened about two or three yeas ago. One of our community members and his wife was being held by gunpoint in their house. Their neighbor saw what was going on and called the police and then shot one of the gunmen through the window. The 2nd gunman ran and was later caught by the police. As far as I know the neighbor was never prosecuted.
I think this type of thing goes on fairly often but never gets reported.

[Les48]

Errr. sorry for not posting this quote....:icon_neutral:

No problem, can I get you to help me with my new full auto Thompson build J/K :icon_biggrin:

[jfowl31]

Okay, this happened about two or three yeas ago. One of our community members and his wife was being held by gunpoint in their house. Their neighbor saw what was going on and called the police and then shot one of the gunmen through the window. The 2nd gunman ran and was later caught by the police. As far as I know the neighbor was never prosecuted.
I think this type of thing goes on fairly often but never gets reported.

A neighbor MIGHT be one of those people that I would be willing to defend... mainly because my neighbors are my wife's aunt and uncle and next to them is her cousin, her husband and their daughter. But even so, I would consider defending a neighbor held at gunpoint in his/her own house. But somebody in a mall parking lot is different in my eyes. Mainly because I don't know the situation, and you could end up doing MUCH more harm than good for yourself and or everyone involved and/or any other innocent bystander who gets caught in a crossfire because of your heroics. You shoot and he starts shooting blindly and kills Sally Jo walking out the front door of a shop.... who escalated the situation now????? See, there's just too much that can go wrong too fast in the situation. Better to let it work itself out with no violence and help get the criminals behind bars than escalate the situation and cause fatalities whether bad guys or innocent people.

[Les48]

A neighbor MIGHT be one of those people that I would be willing to defend... mainly because my neighbors are my wife's aunt and uncle and next to them is her cousin, her husband and their daughter. But even so, I would consider defending a neighbor held at gunpoint in his/her own house. But somebody in a mall parking lot is different in my eyes. Mainly because I don't know the situation, and you could end up doing MUCH more harm than good for yourself and or everyone involved and/or any other innocent bystander who gets caught in a crossfire because of your heroics. You shoot and he starts shooting blindly and kills Sally Jo walking out the front door of a shop.... who escalated the situation now????? See, there's just too much that can go wrong too fast in the situation. Better to let it work itself out with no violence and help get the criminals behind bars than escalate the situation and cause fatalities whether bad guys or innocent people.

Okay, I see your point but if they force her into the car you know she aint coming back.

[GreenWolf]

This thread reminds me of the abduction, rape, and murder of Mary Jo Pesho by a couple of teenage thugs back in 1996.
https://sunnews.com/news/1998/0611/dimarcosentence.htm

[rustypirate]

The real dilemma in a situation like this one is that you cannot determine if the victim is in imminent danger or not.

I agree with the sentiment that the bad guys deserve to get shot, but the court may see it otherwise unless the victim is actually shot.

warnings or shots to disable the getaway car would definately be self-destructive in court as they would demonstrate that you yourself felt that the victim was in no immediate danger and you had time.

Personally I would shoot the perp beating on the victim as this is the immediate threat and the one causing harm. then I would challenge the other one into disarming unless they opened fire.

This way I could plead that the victim was in immediate danger for their life, and I was forced into action. By not immediately shooting the second perp I could not be accused of excessive force when he was not actually parcipitating in the beating.

If the second BG opens fire at me or the victim, then I would be clear to return fire.

[RandyCOG3]

IMHO, there is NO SUCH THING as a "warning shot" under these circumstances. In the case of my ex-wife, I instructed her to lock herself in the bedroom in the case of a burglary during my absence, and put a few rounds of .380 into the ceiling....

The only time it would be acceptable to shoot an armed bad-guy holding a gun on an "innocent bystander", etc., would be if you had the wherewithal to whack his/her medulla oblongata, or otherwise be assured of turning the entireity of the brain into mush, instantaneously. Otherwise, you now have an angry criminal.... or else YOUR SHOT might cause an involuntary squeeze of the trigger, causing the death of somebody that might otherwise been uninjured. The guy in the parking lot is unlikely to hold still long enough for a head shot.

If *I* was a bad guy, and somebody shot my getaway ride full of holes, especially in a mall parking lot, in an effort to escape the area in general, and the guy that shot up my car in particular, I think I'd prefer not to surrender, or "run" away, but rather use my gun to secure a running vehicle complete w/hostages.

And if I were to hear gunfire in the form of a warning shot, now I have me a "human shield", in the form of the bimbo I was merely trying to rob.

I don't know the current status of the progress, but the FCC mandated that all cell phones will "eventually" be trackable to within 50 feet. I *hope* that, in the above scenario, "if" I thought she was in danger, I'd dial and drop the cell phone if there wasn't time to engage the 911 operator in conversation, then move w/rifle to "adjust" the backstop behind the 1st perp.... then I think I'd be yelling something at them, loudly....then what? Depends on the perps, other people around, etc.

But, I'm NOT doing NOTHING AT ALL, stranger or no.

Also on the "NOT" list, I'm NOT having a weapon in my hand when the cops arrive. Even mall cops.

However, if even an otherwise law-abiding citizen takes up 2 parking spaces in a crowded holiday-season mall parking lot becaue he somehow perceives his vehicle to be "cooler" than everybody else's...well, ya gotta take into consideration the proliferation of security cameras popping up on mall roofs these days before taking action....:eek:

RandyCOG3

[tomoshenko]

Just so I understand the situation...

How hot looking is the female?

[Rampager]

Just so I understand the situation...

How hot looking is the female?


You're bad...:evilgrin:

[pigpen]

Just so I understand the situation...

How hot looking is the female?


I was wondering that too but everyone was so serious I didn't say anything.

[jfowl31]

Speaking of which... when do we get to see a full-sized image of that little number in your sig line pigpen?

[tanstaafl4y]

but I suppose in practice those are little more than "comic book" ideals until one is actually placed in such a situation and learns how he will truly react.

Maybe I'm an idealist, and maybe I will find myself to be an idiot upon facing such a situation in real life


I wish I could add to your reputation points...but the silly computer won't let me right now.

[bullseye]

Too many variables in play here. First thing to do if possible is get a phone and call for help. Watch the situation and see how it unfolds. If they are smacking her around demanding their keys for the car she stole at the frat party last night, let them smack her around some. If they are interested in something short term and sexual, then you would have to step in as Norton said. How the hell could you live with yourself knowing that you could have stopped a rape and possibly a killing??? If you believe that the worst is going to happen, you are morally obligated to stop it, no matter what, but you have to be sure that she will be greatly harmed if you do nothing. If you are forced to act, it must be quick and decicive, fast and furious, accurate and deadly, no warning shots allowed. Warning shots are like less-than-lethal ammo, they have a place in a riot, but not in a life or death situation.