5.56 or 5.45?

[KMURPHY]

If you wanted a small caliber AK series rifle (I already have 2 in 7.62x39), would you go 5.56x45 or 5.45x39? I have fired an AK-74 Sidefolder and it was wonderful...never 5.56. I like the idea of domestic available 5.56....but i really liked that 5.45, plus 5.45 mags are cheap. If I go 5.56 route, i would probably buy a Saiga and convert it to military configuration, as i cannot argue with the price of Saiga in 5.56. Either that or I will get a '74 kit and build 'er up. Let me know about any advantages, disadvantages, or expieriences with either.Any ballistic performance advantages between the two? My girlfriend wants to know what i want for Christmas, so I need to decide:icon_biggrin:

[pigpen]

I'd say that in the long run you would do better going with the 5.56. Just being practical.

[nowhereman]

5.45... way more punch, a lifetime of surplus is still available and I think Wolf and the other regulars make it. I want one of those Tantals or whatever. Had been looking at it for a while now.

[jerrymrc]

My take is that if you can afford to buy a bunch of 5.45 then go for it. And I mean a bunch like 6-10000 rds. It is cheap right now and so are the mags. I bought 12 for $39 with the pouches.

Now to the other side of the coin. Depending on which 5.56 ak you buy mags are so-so $18-26 or in the case of the yugo down right pricey at this point.

2 years ago you could not find any 5.45 to save your butt. There is no support for reloading 5.54 at this time.

As much as I love a nice 74 I have two SAR-3's. I bought the weiger mags when they were cheap and have used the bulgy mags with much success. I also have converted two (so far) 74 mags that run just fine with 5.56.

In looking down the road I would say that if you do not reload and have the cash to stockpile some ammo then the 74 is your choice. Now if you have other guns in 5.56 and the thought has crossed your mind that in 12 months the ammo imports may start to dry up then a 5.56 is for you.

Just a few thoughts on the subject. P.S. This is a pic of the 3's The top one has had the mount changed to drop it lower and the BDC works well.

[Old Jimmy]

You guys are making me need a Ak.

Old Jimmy

[dpoe]

You guys are making me need a Ak.

Old Jimmy

Everyone needs an AK!

[robocop10mm]

I personally would not have a caliber that I cannot reload. I even reload the 7.62X39 with great sucess. I am an avid reloader, 12 handgun calibers and 12 rifle calibers. I also cast bullets for most of them. i like to be self sufficient. For SHTF situations that do not involve invasion from the Ruskies (darn remote possibility) the 5.45 does not make long term sense.

[IMBLITZVT]

5.45... Much cheaper ammo right now. At the price of wolf... you can not reload cheaper! I like the round and that way you can save the .233 for the poodle shooter.

[ctdemolay0405]

Everyone needs an AK!
yea, but my state doesnt allow them.... freaking jerks

[nowhereman]

The way I see it is there will be a high demand in the future for 5.45. The market is being saturated with variations of this rifle in this caliber. Remember money talks. If it didn't with all the treaties in place we will dry up on C&R firearms in the next year or two but, "money talks." Put it this way I would buy it way before I would get a 6.8mm or something like that... If your willing to make a say $800 investment you can shoot 5.45 for a WHILE. Commercial dealers are making it and reloading makers will follow, "how about the 7.5 Swiss? We have dyes for that, don't start w/ the oh but you can use .308..."
Heres a few links for ref:
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/ammo-for-rifles/5-45x39/cPath/12_37
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_5_45x39.html
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=344
http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/practice_cea.htm
THATS JUST FOR STARTERS. I GOING TO GET ONE OF THOSE CHEAP ROMY'S MYSELF IN A 5.45.

[IMBLITZVT]

If your willing to make a say $800 investment you can shoot 5.45 for a WHILE.

If you spend $800 on an AK, I think you should have your head examined. :icon_neutral:


I would not call shooting 5.45 a short term cal. There are Millions of those rounds surplus across the world in the old commie block states. Plus with a few companies and wolf making them... the cal. should be around for a long time... Look at it now, the only two cheap rifle cals to shoot are 5.54 and 7.62.... 308 and 223 are way way high!

At 15 or so cents a round... who is reloading?

[KMURPHY]

If you spend $800 on an AK, I think you should have your head examined. :icon_neutral:

i think he refers to the outlay for a large supply of ammo....

[nowhereman]

If you spend $800 on an AK, I think you should have your head examined. :icon_neutral:


I would not call shooting 5.45 a short term cal. There are Millions of those rounds surplus across the world in the old commie block states. Plus with a few companies and wolf making them... the cal. should be around for a long time... Look at it now, the only two cheap rifle cals to shoot are 5.54 and 7.62.... 308 and 223 are way way high!

At 15 or so cents a round... who is reloading?
On current ammo. surplus not on an AK. Anyway I agree with you on the issue....

[KMURPHY]

what is the .223 mag situation like? can a saiga readily accept hi-caps with out messing with the mag well?

[okie shooter]

A saiga has a full sized double stack mag well, just no feed ramp, the feed ramp is built into the mags. Thus you have to add a feed ramp and the required number of 922r parts to bring the rifle into compliance(though this is argued wether adding a high cap mag, makes the rifle an assault weapon by definition. I think it does thus just my opnion though, and I am erring to the far safe side). Some times you have to work the mag catch lever. Supposedly the saiga mag catches are thinner thus it rides higher. I would go and do some reading on the saiga-12 boards for the best info on this stuff.

Wegners are rumored to work well with them, along with galils. I have some chinese I was going to try in my .223 but acquisition of two chinese 223 rifles plus a wasr-3 have changed my plans to convert my saiga .223 to high cap.

One comment on the two ammo variants, there is no us maker of the 5.45x39 currently, thus if the soviets drop the round, or stop exporting it, its going to be at the mercy of the market. I am not sure if anyone else is currently makeing it overseas, as most of the former soviet bloc has changed to 5.56x45.

[Kalash]

5.45x39 is the only real choice in an AK other than 7.62x39.
Have you seen the price of 5.56 ammo?:eek:
Plus,5.56 belongs in a western platform anyway.

[IMBLITZVT]

On current ammo. surplus not on an AK. Anyway I agree with you on the issue....

Oh yeah I see that now... Who spends $800 all at once on ammo for a gun that only cost $400? I mean I can see a case or two at a time but $800 is well over 5000 rounds... the gun might not last that long! :)

[weasel_master]

Oh yeah I see that now... Who spends $800 all at once on ammo for a gun that only cost $400? I mean I can see a case or two at a time but $800 is well over 5000 rounds... the gun might not last that long! :)

The past few times I've picked up ammo I planned ahead for savings. I bought a crapload of 7.62x54R right before it went up, the same for 8mm. I wanted the ammo on hand for my mg42 and vickers. It doesn't mean I'm going to blow all 10k rounds but I learned. In year when I want to take out my mg42 I won't be trying to find reasonably priced 8mm.

[IMBLITZVT]

The past few times I've....I want to take out my mg42 I won't be trying to find reasonably priced 8mm.

Yeah but what other gun do you have that shoots 5.45? Its pretty much a gun specific round... That is unless you are Warty and have 97 AK74s... :)

[weasel_master]

Yeah but what other gun do you have that shoots 5.45? Its pretty much a gun specific round... That is unless you are Warty and have 97 AK74s... :)

That's true. And he'll be down to 95 AK's when he sends two my way. I just ordered a bunch of 7.62x25 for my ppsh and picked up a load of 5.45 while I'm at it.

[k98k792]

I would lke to see the AK that won't last 5,000 rounds. I have at least 10 or 12 that have done that with little sign of wear.

I like the 5.45 over the 5.56.

I think it would be good to stock up on it. I have been,buy it while it's cheap!

[nowhereman]

Oh yeah I see that now... Who spends $800 all at once on ammo for a gun that only cost $400? I mean I can see a case or two at a time but $800 is well over 5000 rounds... the gun might not last that long! :)

Who spends .60 cents on a round when the rifle only cost $400? Anyway you look at it 5.56 is rediculous, 7.62 NATO rediculous, 7.62x39 getting there. If I had the money right now instead of buying that next AK, AR or someother assault variant I would lay down a grand or two on surplus ammo right now and RELAX. What good are these 3-4-500 dollar AK's and 800-1000 dollar AR's I have going to do w/o ammo? Do I not have a point?

[okie shooter]

5.45x39 is the only real choice in an AK other than 7.62x39.
Have you seen the price of 5.56 ammo?:eek:
Plus,5.56 belongs in a western platform anyway.


You are ingnoreing the chinese, the 5.8x42 round for the PLA of China, this another true ak round.

[IMBLITZVT]

I would lke to see the AK that won't last 5,000 rounds. I have at least 10 or 12 that have done that with little sign of wear.


Sorry should have used the :wink: and not that :) at the end... yeah I was kidding.

Why would you buy expensive ammo now? Its like buying on the stock market at the highest price... I mean if you find a good deal yeah but I would not be stocking up at this point. Time to just wait it out and hope it comes back down.

[jfowl31]

Sorry should have used the :wink: and not that :) at the end... yeah I was kidding.

Why would you buy expensive ammo now? Its like buying on the stock market at the highest price... I mean if you find a good deal yeah but I would not be stocking up at this point. Time to just wait it out and hope it comes back down.

Honestly, I don't think ANYTHING firearm related (guns or ammo or mags) are coing to "come back down." I think in a few years, we are all going to be complaining wishing we had bought all the 5.56 and 7.62 Nato when it was $.50 a round since its run up to a buck a round.

[RMTactical]

If you go with the 5.45, I would buy it cheap and stack it deep now. If you go with 5.56, you can afford to hold off on stashing away quite as much ammo. I am esspecially worried that if Hillary gets elected she will use EO's to ban the importation of foreign ammo/weapons...

Although I don't care for the 7.62x39 round, I prefer it in AK's as it is most common in that flavor, and mags, spare parts, and ammo are more easily acquired, at least for now.

[okie shooter]

Honestly, I don't think ANYTHING firearm related (guns or ammo or mags) are coing to "come back down." I think in a few years, we are all going to be complaining wishing we had bought all the 5.56 and 7.62 Nato when it was $.50 a round since its run up to a buck a round.

Woe are the days, when I bitched about paying fifteen cents a round for 5.56 and less than ten cents for 7.62x39 too.

The last 5.45 I got I paid about fifteen cents for the stuff, and was happy for getting two thousand more rounds for the one rifle I have, thus the move to get behind a few standard rifle rounds some what in surplus military stuff.

[nowhereman]

Sorry should have used the :wink: and not that :) at the end... yeah I was kidding.

Why would you buy expensive ammo now? Its like buying on the stock market at the highest price... I mean if you find a good deal yeah but I would not be stocking up at this point. Time to just wait it out and hope it comes back down.
yeah and gas is going to go back down to $1 a gallon..... Won't be holding my breath for that. I'm going to dig in hard on 7.62 x39 and 5.56 in the near future. If I have enough after that....A couple of tins of 5.45 and a Romy special.

[nowhereman]

Oh yeah I'm also going to buy a butt load of INDIAN 7.62 70's headstamp. Oh I'm so crazy.......

[XO3319]

I have 5 AKs and a Yugo SKS in 7.62x39 (2 Romy Builds, 1 Polish PMKMS, I Yugo M70AB2 and a Yugo RPK) and I love them

I have one build in 5.45x39 and that is a Polish Tantal with about 1600 rounds

I just wanted one but I like the punch of the 7.62x39

[IMBLITZVT]

I am not saying they are coming back down to where they were but remember we are involved in a few wars right now and they are eating a lot of ammo. When all this comes to an end (like all wars must) the prices should drop down a bit.

Oil use does not look like it will ever slow... so unless you think there are many many more wars to come... I don't really think they compare.

Also I am not talking about inflation... ie why wolf is not 50% more... I will say up front our money is only worth a third of a 1990 buck...

So I see Wolf at 15 cents as a normal going rate considering the inflation with our money. However 308 and 233 at 50 cents a round is a more of a result of the war... esp 223...

What we really really need is for Wolf and the other companies to come out with the standard cheap 308 and more 223. I mean wolf 223 at 15 cents a round isn't bad! If I could get the 308 at 20-25 cents a round that would be great!

[nowhereman]

Oil....... It has everything to do w/ everything, crap I didn't even think about that. My father is a valve specialist w/ a company here Downsouth. He said metals are getting very expensive. And oil prices has something to do w/ everything you buy now days. But now we are way off subject....Or are we?

[acmech]

5.45... way more punch, a lifetime of surplus is still available and I think Wolf and the other regulars make it. I want one of those Tantals or whatever. Had been looking at it for a while now.

How does it have more punch??? The 5.45 round has less velocity then the average 5.56 round. Most (actually all) sources show the 5.56 to have the edge (however slightly) over the 5.45. The russians aren't happy with it's performance either. Their latest outings in urban and wooded settings have them dissappointed. Worked great in Afganistan, but not in Chechnya.

Having said that, I chose to build up 3 ak74's, a Tantal, and two Bulgy's. I didn't think the lower performance of the 5.45 mattered enough for me, plus the ammo costs even when 5.45 was scarce was lower.

[nowhereman]

How does it have more punch??? The 5.45 round has less velocity then the average 5.56 round. Most (actually all) sources show the 5.56 to have the edge (however slightly) over the 5.45. The russians aren't happy with it's performance either. Their latest outings in urban and wooded settings have them dissappointed. Worked great in Afganistan, but not in Chechnya.

Having said that, I chose to build up 3 ak74's, a Tantal, and two Bulgy's. I didn't think the lower performance of the 5.45 mattered enough for me, plus the ammo costs even when 5.45 was scarce was lower.

Well I have seen the english version of this but I just did a quick search and here ya go......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mqaeX2KigSc
Speaks for itself 5.45 more energy delivered and more penetration than the 5.56. I also have done some other research a few years ago and the Soviets made DAMN sure they made a superior round to the 5.56 as it was imparitive that they "upgrade to this Western threat i.e. 5.56..." Many other videos confirming the same. Its a free country and you can keep your opinion.

[acmech]

Well I have seen the english version of this but I just did a quick search and here ya go......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mqaeX2KigSc
Speaks for itself 5.45 more energy delivered and more penetration than the 5.56. I also have done some other research a few years ago and the Soviets made DAMN sure they made a superior round to the 5.56 as it was imparitive that they "upgrade to this Western threat i.e. 5.56..." Many other videos confirming the same. Its a free country and you can keep your opinion.


Sorry you got so upset, but according to the russians, their round has slightly less velocity, and a slighty lower bullet weight. The research you did a few years ago, did it include reading the rounds weights, velocities, and muzzle energy? The fact is the 50 gr. 5N7 5.45 round has a average velocity of 2950 f/s with 968 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. The 62 gr. FMJBT 5.56 round has 3080 velocity and 1305 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. I'm concerned with stated facts not Youtube videos (did your video test steel core rnds of both calibers or just the 5.45), EVERY major firearms information source there is, shows the 5.56 round to have a slight edge, and you choose to get info. from youtube. Good for you.
If you read "The Russian Experience of Urban Combat" written by Martin Andrew, the Russians were unhappy with the performance of the 5.45 round. The 5.45 and 5.56 are both small rnds with a factual slight edge given to the 5.56 so why are you so upset? I'm not speaking my opinion, but that of the firearms world as we know it, and only you dissagree.

The listed effective range for the 5.45 is approximately 500 meters and the effective range for the 5.56 is 550 meters. Effective range is not the same as maximum effective range.

[nowhereman]

Not mad or upset, tons of information backing this discussion. I obviously know the 5.56 will have more range. I have seen more information that the Soviets are moving back to the 7.62x39 though since our conversation started. You can't deny the video footage though. I own 2 AR-15's and think they both suck as combat weapons. IMHO.....................

[Woodman in MO]

As far as I am concerned, ballistically they are pretty much equal. They will both hit what I aim them at.

As far as price, 5.45 does have the edge. I'd go with that in a rifle and stock up on ammo. That's what I'm doing, Tantal and several 1000 rounds while you can.

[jfowl31]

Sorry Nuckl, but its not an "opinion" that 5.56 has the slight edge over the 5.45 round ballistically. IF ANYTHING, you could say they are equal, but saying the 5.45 has more "punch" is just not true. Some Youtube video showing penetration through spaced wood planks and some modeling clay doesn't mean crap. The 5.45 looked more impressive in the clay because it veered up where the 5.56 veered down and almost toppled to whole setup.

They are very similar rounds (fact) and the 5.45 is currently cheaper (fact). Typically the 223 in general is more accurate downrange (fact). Right now, reloading components and brass reloadable ammunition is available for 5.56. Ive never seen anything but steelcased 5.45, but I don't know if any brass cased ammo exists in that caliber.

I won't even use IMO in this post because its proven that the 2 are VERY close to equals with the 5.56 having the advantage. Heavier bullet + higher velocity equals "more punch" even if some youtube video shows more penetration with the 5.45.... all that means is the 5.56 put more energy into the target faster than the 5.45 did.

Personally, if I were getting an AK, and those rounds were the choices, I'd get a 5.56, but thats because Im already set up to reload for it and have some 5.56 to play with. That and the fact that its not ONLY a military caliber and will be available in all sorts on bullet types forever makes it a desirable caliber for me. Yes wolf and others make 5.45 in fmj and HP, but there's hundreds of different kinds of 223 to shoot for hunting or plinking or silouhette shooting...... THAT is my opinion, but I got no problem with the 5.45, I just prefer a local caliber thats also a military caliber. AND I do think the price of ammo may go down a tad once we are out of Iraq and Afganistan. I don't think the prices will ever be "great" but they may go down a bit.

[pigpen]

7.62x51 has more punch than both combined

[jfowl31]

good observation

[nowhereman]

Ok its too close to say. I retract all my statement accept ammo will never go back down as long as people know we will pay what we do now. And we will NOT be out of Iraq or Afghanistan ANY time in the near future..... I don't know for sure what the guy needs to get. For good measure try this link. It should clear some things up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgliDavLY9Y

[david sarnoff]

built on an Armory USA receiver. Love my 5.45 as much as I like my 7.62 x 39 Romy G custom build. Right now 5.45 Bulgarian military ammo is running $119 for 1080 rounds. I am a member of the spam can of the month club and have stacked a bunch of the 90s Bulgarian away. Just a fun gun to which friends, including a SWAT team member said "what recoil?" Or as another friend said "how can several million communist soldiers be wrong?"

[pigpen]

I think diversity is a good thing & having as many guns in as many different calibers as you can afford is the best route.

[k98k792]

I think diversity is a good thing & having as many guns in as many different calibers as you can afford is the best route.

Right on,right on! :thumbup:

[Rampager]

I own neither caliber at the moment, so don’t have a horse in this race. I would like to get a 5.56 AK and AR. For what it's worth, IMHO I'd go with the 5.56 cause in the long run when I start running low on the calibers I do have lots of on hand (8mm, 7.62x51, x39, x54), I think the .223 has the best chance of being more abundant and thus more affordable (5 years out).

If we don’t get screwed by the politicians over the next several years, with all the former soviet countries joining the UN and many now switching to 5.56 maybe we will see some decent surplus deals in this round in a few years.

But...having said that, the cheap 5.45 available right now can carry you over if you stock up for the next several years. So why not get both?

[hunter_la5]

there's only one logical solution, as I see it.... get one of each!:ak::ak:

[okie shooter]

It does get old and you never stop at one, heck five or six and I might stop.