Looking for a recommendation on a reloading press

[Geilt]

So I've been seriously toying with the idea of getting in to reloading. My first reason is to lower the cost of shooting as surplus ammo is getting harder and harder to find and more and more expensive.

I also want to tailor ammunition for longer range shooting (300+ yards) to my Savage 12BVSS in .223 and Remmy 700P .308.

So with that in mind I was wondering what presses folks here use and recommend. I am not tied to a particular brand like RCBS, Lee, Redding, etc. but I'd like to stay away from a progressive press. A turret press though would be fine. My understanding is that bullet seating, and the resulting precision, on a progressive is slightly less as the round is moving from station to station.

[cimmaronkid]

My understanding is that bullet seating, and the resulting precision, on a progressive is slightly less as the round is moving from station to station.

Not so and Mike Dillion and most of us that own a Dillion press will argue that statement. Unless you go to a bushing type of single stage press that the bench rest guys use and is only produced by a few companies such as Sinclair International, the Dillion 550B will turn out as good or better ammo than what you can produce on a single stage press. It is also a lot faster and has the ability to load every single cartridge out there from pistol to the large magnum rounds. About the only centerfire it wont reload is the .50 cal. Problem is the investment as a starting set up will cost about $400-$500 depending on what you get. I have over 20k rounds loaded on mine and finally wore out a small part which they replaced at no cost and gave me several other small parts I might have to replace in the near future. Nice guys

As far as single stage presses go, I have no loyalty to any brands as they all take the same shell holder, dies, etc. I do however have a preference in a style and that is the "O" press where both sides connect to the base unlike the "C" press that is open in the front unless you find an old Herters press in which case I doubt that you would get any flex in the frame. That is why I favor a "O" press. I also favor cast iron or steel over the alloy, but that is just a personal opinion. Any of the major makers such as Lee, Lyman, RCBS, etc make good equipment and to me it becomes a matter of choice.

The exception to this is the Bonanza single stage press that looks like a "H" and is capable of loading some extremely accurate ammo. This is the hand press that is used by the army marksmanship units to load for their competition rifles. Very strong and very pricey.

More attention should be paid to the case preperation, dies, primer seater, Micrometer seater, and powder weight than to the press for accurate one hole accuracy. If you do this, then the type of press won't really matter that much unless you want to try and squeeze thet last .001" of group.

[Geilt]

Not so and Mike Dillion and most of us that own a Dillion press will argue that statement. Unless you go to a bushing type of single stage press that the bench rest guys use and is only produced by a few companies such as Sinclair International, the Dillion 550B will turn out as good or better ammo than what you can produce on a single stage press.

...

More attention should be paid to the case preperation, dies, primer seater, Micrometer seater, and powder weight than to the press for accurate one hole accuracy. If you do this, then the type of press won't really matter that much unless you want to try and squeeze thet last .001" of group.

Thanks for thought out response.

Before I started buying ANYTHING I bought several reloading manuals, read the information provided before the actual reloading data and did more research on the questions I had. I have no problem laying out good money for good equipment. Kind of the whole "right tools for the job mentality".

I've already started getting the case preperation pieces and getting familiar with their use. As I get a new tool I practice using it on cheap bulk Winchester brass.

Since the real heart of the reloading operation is the press I wanted to get opinions.

[cimmaronkid]

Unless you a looking for the last little bit of group size and don't want to use a bushing style press but want to go with the best single stage out there, go with the Bonanza. It is the best hands down! I then would recommend the RCBS Rockchucker Supreme or the Lyman Crusher II. I think that they are equal. If you go with a progressive, I recommend the Dillion 550B or the 650 just from experience of feeding 7 very hungry varmint rifles for prairie dogs. As far as reloading dies, C&H tool make the best with RCBS being second. This is based on the quality of the die, smoothness of the body and the internal dimensions. RCBS makes several different sets. I recommend the one with the micrometer seater. Primer seating has a large effect on the accuracy of the round and again I lean towards the RCBS strip system as it seats on the upstroke of the loading ram and you can get a feel for seating them and not crush them. Hornady makes a very good hand primer seater that I can personally recommend. Ball powders measure easier than extruded powders so I recommend them as the charges will be a little more consistant. I used to weigh every charge and use a trickler to keep each charge the same and what a pain. Since most of my guns are bolt action and I segregate the brass for each one, I only neck size and trim to -.001" length and also turn the outside of the neck for concentricy. My .22-250 will shoot a .254"ctc group with this case prep on loads from my Dillion 550B.

[Warwagon]

+1 on the Dillon presses. I agree wholeheartedly with Cimmaronkid! If you are just starting reloading any of the cast iron O-frame designs are a good place to start. They just about NEVER wear out if properly cared for. Single stage presses are nice, but a turret press allows you to just spin the disk and bring a new die to bear on the ram (this equates to less time setting up dies, and more productivity.) You could score one of these for cheap at auction, learn on it, and not have a fortune invested. If you decide not to keep with reloading, you can recoup your investment in the equipment pretty easily. If you do decide you like the process, then graduate to a progressive (they are more complex, but once you know the basics you'll have little trouble figuring them out.) I own a Dillon 550B also and can't say enough good about it. Check out their warranty! Mike Dillon really believes in standing behind his product. Changing calibers is easy, and once you get the hang of it, you can pump out close to 500 rounds per hour. The ammo produced on a "Blue" press is every bit as good as anyone's - better than most! My .264WinMag ammo from the Dillon is capable of .65" 5-shot groups @100M, if I do my job. Not quite as good as Cimarronkid's 22-250, but not shabby when you consider the differences in cartridges.:icon_mrgreen:

[Geilt]

Unless you a looking for the last little bit of group size and don't want to use a bushing style press but want to go with the best single stage out there, go with the Bonanza. It is the best hands down! I then would recommend the RCBS Rockchucker Supreme or the Lyman Crusher II. I think that they are equal. If you go with a progressive, I recommend the Dillion 550B or the 650 just from experience of feeding 7 very hungry varmint rifles for prairie dogs. As far as reloading dies, C&H tool make the best with RCBS being second. This is based on the quality of the die, smoothness of the body and the internal dimensions. RCBS makes several different sets. I recommend the one with the micrometer seater. Primer seating has a large effect on the accuracy of the round and again I lean towards the RCBS strip system as it seats on the upstroke of the loading ram and you can get a feel for seating them and not crush them. Hornady makes a very good hand primer seater that I can personally recommend. Ball powders measure easier than extruded powders so I recommend them as the charges will be a little more consistant. I used to weigh every charge and use a trickler to keep each charge the same and what a pain. Since most of my guns are bolt action and I segregate the brass for each one, I only neck size and trim to -.001" length and also turn the outside of the neck for concentricy. My .22-250 will shoot a .254"ctc group with this case prep on loads from my Dillion 550B.

So far I have picked up the following:
Redding 2400 case trimmer
Hornady hand priming tool
RCBS case master gauging tool
digital micrometer and calipers
case lube and pad
RCBS primer pocket brush

I realize there is a lot more to get and I am leaning towards a very manual process which is going to take longer and thus reduce my throughput but the way I look at it, if I learn to do it RIGHT manually, I won't come to rely on multi-stage tools to do a lot of the work for me. Kind of the "... teach a man to fish... " mentality. Once I know when I am doing manually I'll feel more comfortable relaxing and letting the tools do most the work.

I like the idea of the RCBS dies with the micrometer seater so I can adjust the die to change the OAL if I am reloading the same caliber but for different rifles. I won't have to adjust the whole die each time I reload between rifles. I'll wait and get the NICE die sets when I step up to a custom barrel.

The powder measure and scale is still up the air. I do like the idea of an automated powder dispenser and attached scale so I don't sit there manually trickling out each measure. Not to mention the convience of programming in the powder dispensing per charge I am doing.

I've heard that ball powders dispense easier so I may try them first where possible but I am not going to be so focused on them that I ignore extruded if they are going to help with accuracy.

Finally, the press... I am still lost. I obviously need to do more homework to figure what I need vs. what I want. I "want" a 4 die turret top so I can keep a pairs of 2 die rifle sets or a multiple die set for one caliber. I don't shoot pistol so that's not a consideration at this point. Okay, there's also a certain level of desire to keep from having to remove dies and then reseat them between stages. If I want this convience does this force me in to a progressive?

Side question, what is a "bushing style press"?

[Norton]

For what you are planing to use the press for, I would recomend The RCBS Rock Chucker as my first choice. My second choice would be the Lyman Orange Crusher. Their is very little difference in their quality. They are both very good solid cast iron presses that are built like yesteryear. My third choice would be the LEE classic cast iron, it is very simular but at a better price. I don't use a progressive press for rifles or pistols because I want to do every step slowly and re-check what I am doing. I do use a progressive for shotgun shells. Seating bullets is a very critical stage and I use the small RCBS partner. I also use the little press to bell out the necks of 9mms or 45 acp. I use the Rock chucker for FL case sizing.
Now I want to make this clear, I use lot's of LEE products i.e Dies bullet molds, and lube sizer kits. But I warn you on their cheapest press,
I cannot speak for others, but that was my first press and It broke on me after only a few hundred 30 06 and 38.. The linkage was very cheesy and press itself was cast metal of a cheap grade. I will say this for them I sent it back and they refunded me ASAP with no bs.. To sum it up in my opinion you should start out with a good solid cast iron type O press. Also on a small matter Cimmaron brought up. I use the small RCBS bench mounted priming tool. I do not like those primer tubes or priming of a big press on the down stroke. This little tool alows me to take my time and feel them as they are seated. My friend showed me a RCBS primer tube set up when I first got started and made this comment 'this is a hand grenade' He said you don't want a alumminum tube of primers sitiing at eye level. I don't know what he based that comment on but it convinced me. So I prime one at a time. These new primer strips seem like a great idea, they stay nice and clean. By the way I do not reload for benchrest shooting.. rather for good high quality deer rounds and for plinking ammo for elderly weapons (but mostly for fun and relaxation) So I am no expert.. But preach this all the time if you do alot shooting, you should reload you won't regret it when you pick up that empty brass after a day of shooting.

[cimmaronkid]

An apparatus for resizing the neck of a cartridge case which includes a housing secured to a stationary head of a reloading press. A support sleeve is attached within the housing such that the support sleeve can slide within a bore of the housing. The apparatus utilizes interchangeable bushings, located within the support sleeve, which each have substantially the same outside diameter but which have varying inside diameters. The bushings are marked with their inside diameter and the user selects a bushing with an inside diameter which the user determines will most accurately resize the neck. To change bushings, the top portion of the housing is separated from the bottom portion of the housing and the components inside the housing can then be slid out of the end of the bottom portion of the housing. A different bushing can be substituted for the one that was previously used. The neck of the cartridge casing is forced into the bushing such that the bushing causes the neck to decrease in diameter to resize the neck of the cartridge case. The apparatus may also include a decapping rod supported at both ends which ensures that the neck is round and uniform.

This type of die is used in what is called a bushing or arbor press. Mainly used in benchrest as it is very accurate, but very pricey to make a set of dies and sleeves. I think I know now what you are looking for is a turret head press and RCBS, Lyman and Lee make this type. I do not use this type of press as the turrets usually turn at the top leaving another variable to the equation. I think that your solution might lye with the C-H Tool #444 press as this will allow you to do what you wanted. These are hand built and are extremely nice and will out last you by far.

There is nothing wrong with Lee dies and I have several sets. I just like the RCBS better. Personal opinion. Powder measurers are a different story however and you get what you pay for here. My favorite is the Lyman #55 measure because it is what I learned with and I can dial it in quick when I want to really work up a new load. The RCBS, Hornady, and Bonanza are all good and are quite accurate in throwing repeatable charges. Can't go wrong with any of these. The electronic measure/trickler/scale is a little pricey and overkill unless you are going for all out accuracy in which case you would need to rethink your press, dies, etc. As for scales, I would get two: a balance beam scale and an electronic scale. Reason for this is most electric scales use their battery power even though you turn it off. The old tried and true beam scale never acts up and is always working and you can find these in great used shape for $20 or less.

Already mentioned, but I want to bring it up again is that these presses don't wear out and a press that was built 40 years ago will do a great job today. Go to some estate sales and get some equipment and try it to see what you like and don't like. You can always get your money back for this type of equipment so try several and see what works for you. Also look up Norton's posts and find his pictures of his reloading room. We should all be so lucky.

[pidaster]

Rockchucker for accurizing rounds for long distance. Hornady progressive for the rest.

[Geilt]

The C-H Tool 444 looks like the ticket for me. The convience of having multiple dies set and ready to go but also having the stability of single stage press (unlike the turret presses I was originally considering). The price is a little higher than I was looking to spend right out of the gate but as Cimmaron said, it will outlast me. It helps that the third party reviews of the press are all positive if not glowing. I may end up getting a second press for reloading bulk ammo but that will be down the road at some point... or if i happen across a good deal on a used one. I go to estate sales from time to time and I'll keep my eyes open for something there.

For scales I see the wisdom of having both an electronic and beam style. If for no other reason so as to check the accuracy of the other with an actual charge of powder. For the measures though, aside from cost, is there a reason to go one way or the other? I like the idea of convience the electronic measures brings but they are expensive. Just how accurate are the electronic measures?

Norton mentioned the RCBS bench mounted priming station. I looked it up and that does look nice. I may sell off the hand primer and go with that instead. No flipping primers in the tray, no worries about having to touch the primers and easier storage of unused primers. Not to mention it's more stable than my handheld tool.

I'll stick with the regular RCBS dies I already have but look to move up a notch or two after I have everything else. I may keep the dies or sell them off, I don't know.

Why does it seem some people have low expectations or negative opinions of the Lee products?

[bullseye]

I have used a few Lee presses over the years and have had but one problem. On an older challenger press about 15 years ago the linkage broke and they replaced it no problem. I just bought a loadmaster for loading bulk pistol rounds in a few calibers and also loading bulk 308. For my Rem700 i will be using a lee classic cast for it. I know lots of folks that use lee and are very happy, I alos know lotf of folks that use RCBS and Dillon and love them too.

[Geilt]

I have used a few Lee presses over the years and have had but one problem. On an older challenger press about 15 years ago the linkage broke and they replaced it no problem. I just bought a loadmaster for loading bulk pistol rounds in a few calibers and also loading bulk 308. For my Rem700 i will be using a lee classic cast for it. I know lots of folks that use lee and are very happy, I alos know lotf of folks that use RCBS and Dillon and love them too.

It seems that people that actually use Lee presses really like them. The people which haven't tend to have the negative opinions. Every time I've heard of someone having an actual problem with the equipment itself and they've contacted Lee directly, Lee has gone out of the way to get things taken care of quickly and at little to no charge.

[cimmaronkid]

I think that the reason Lee gets some bad marks from some people is due to the construction. Most of the new Lee presses are great, but that wasn't the same 15-20 years ago. Thats why the bad words. The bad news came from the old Challenger press and a progressive made back then. Bullseye ran into the problem that most of the Challenger presses had and the old style progressive had much the same problem and then some. Lee fixed everything for free and even replaced a lot of the progressives for free, but in the gun writers eyes, the damage was done. Oh, the power of the press!

Don't sell off the hand primer unless you absolutely have too. They do an excellent job and you never know when you might waqnt to build a small set up to take directly to the range like I do to work up loads.

As for powder measurers, any that I mentioned work extremely well and will throw REPEATABLE ACCURATE CHARGES. (That's the secret) Cost then becomes the main issue. I use the Lyman 55 as I have used one for over 40 years and am quite comfortable with it. I believe Norton uses the RCBS because that is what he is comfortable with. A lot of the benchresters use the Forrester, but their needs are different. I don't think you will really need the electronic set up as the measurers discussed do quite a nice job on their own and I have found that if a measure will throw consistant charges that weigh +/- .2 grains will give you extremely accurate ammunition.

Now, here comes the curve ball! I have started shooting BPCR with a 45-70 loaded with black powder loads, casting my own bullets and have had to unlearn everything I learned about reloading and shooting with smokeless. I go to the range to work up loads to save time. My press is is a Lee "O" style alloy, with my Hornady hand primer, my old Lyman 55 measure with a brass hopper and drop tube, and Lyman cowboy dies that I polished. It's lite and easy to transport. It all sits on a Midway portable reloading bench and makes everyone think you know what you are doing. Go figure.

[Geilt]

Ya know there's a guy that shoots benchrest at the range I go to. I've seen him handloading there with an ancient single stage press pouring premeasured charges. While I thought it was a bit excessive orginally its making more and more sense. He's not just working up a load, he's adjusting powder and other factors to the conditions he's shooting in. He'll whip up 5-10 rounds, document how the rounds shot and some other data and then run some patches through. That'll go on for the better part of the day.

Something tells me I'll be doing the same thing eventually.

The same guy made the rangemaster talk to me about "maybe moving down a few lanes" when I brought my Cetme out there for the first time. It seems 'Benchrest Bob' was nervous about my hot brass whipping at him and his gear from thirty feet away. Not mention the thunderous BOOM ruining his shots. Man he hates it when I bust the Cetme out, regardless of which lane I am in. </evil laughter>

[bullseye]

"The same guy made the rangemaster talk to me about "maybe moving down a few lanes" when I brought my Cetme out there for the first time. It seems 'Benchrest Bob' was nervous about my hot brass whipping at him and his gear from thirty feet away. Not mention the thunderous BOOM ruining his shots. Man he hates it when I bust the Cetme out, regardless of which lane I am in."


Lots of us get that reaction. You get used to it. :) I can't find anyone that wants to shoot on my right.

[cimmaronkid]

Benchrest is a whole new ball game when it comes to equipment. The "Benchrest Bob" you were watching may have had 20 cases that he weighed and then weighed the water capacity so that the volume in each case was the same. He probably bought 500-1000 cases to find these 20 or so cases. He then probably turned the necks on the outside after the brass was sized and also lightly reamed the inside to allow for equal neck tension. The primer holes were deburred and the primer pockets uniformed with a piloted case trimmer and all cases trimmed to the same length. The powder charges in the tubes had been pre-weighed and a powder trickler was used to get each charge the same. Primers were probably set with a hand seater that is adjusted to seat the primer to its ideal depth. Bullets are seated with a type of micrometer seating die that allows you to drop the bullet into the side of the die and is then seated perfectly in the case neck. If this is not enough Zen for you then you count the number of breaths you take, watch the wind, keep the scope aligned properly, apply the same trigger pressure each time you touch of the rifle and hopefully the bullet goes in the same hole as the first. Way too much work, concentration, mental management for me.

When I go to the range with my spanish noise maker, I usually wait to see if the person next to me is a good guy or a PR*CK! If he is the latter, out it comes without any warning in all of its loud, brass belching beauty. If he is one of the good guys, I tell him what I am going to shoot next and what to expect.

[Geilt]

Lots of us get that reaction. You get used to it. :) I can't find anyone that wants to shoot on my right.

Believe me, I know what its like and I've grown used to it. In fact I enjoy it. Either people are stopping by wanting to take a look at the Cetme simply because it looks so bad ass or because its louder than anything else they've heard.

Conversely there are just as many people hating the fact the thing is so loud and spittin' brass three lanes over. I normally tell the range master that I'll be shooting it and I'll get a lane far away from everyone else.

As to the benchrest crowd, I have the uptmost respect the level attention to detail they have to give and the resulting accuracy. The "benchrest bob" gentleman (real name Mark) is just an arrogant jerkw*d though. He's talking smack about most people there when he's not behind the trigger. His opinon seems to be that if you're not shooting benchrest you're just wasting money. He seems to have forgotten the first reason why we're all out shooting... its just plain fun.

[cimmaronkid]

A big +1 on the comment about the snob approach as it seems to run to a greater degree in that shooting sport than in a lot of others. There are some good guys there but they are few and far between. They are so afraid that someone will learn a secret from them and shoot a smaller group. That is why I quit! Besides, it is nothing more than an equipment race that can get very expensive. The other side of the coin is the BPCR silhouette matches where the rules are written to keep it from turning into an equipment race and IDPA where the pistols shot are still pretty stock and not like the IPSC race guns.

[Geilt]

For a while I was sucked in to idea of making itty bitty teeny weeny holes in paper but then I had a realization. They aren't shooting these itty bitty teeny weeny holes either. They are relying on their equipment to do it for them. The benchrest guys are barely touching the rifles at all. In race guns they're using nothing more than a barreled action essentially mounted to the bench. Any gun will shoot a heck of a lot better if you go so far as to remove the human element.

I shoot a semi-modified Ruger 10/22T using Wolf Extra Match (40gr) at both 50 and 100 yards using nothing more than sandbags as a front rest. Maybe $400 in to the gun which includes the cheap 3x9 Bushnell scope it came with. Using the stock barrel I am capable of getting sub .25" groups at 50yards and .33-40" groups at 100 yards. Dollar for dollar my little 10/22 is much more accurate than his $3000 benchrest gun.

I wonder how good of a shot some of these guys would be if you take their equipment away and make them shoot a stock rifle. My guess is there would be a lot of complaining (make that excuses).

[tomoshenko]

For a while I was sucked in to idea of making itty bitty teeny weeny holes in paper but then I had a realization. They aren't shooting these itty bitty teeny weeny holes either. They are relying on their equipment to do it for them. The benchrest guys are barely touching the rifles at all. In race guns they're using nothing more than a barreled action essentially mounted to the bench. Any gun will shoot a heck of a lot better if you go so far as to remove the human element.

I shoot a semi-modified Ruger 10/22T using Wolf Extra Match (40gr) at both 50 and 100 yards using nothing more than sandbags as a front rest. Maybe $400 in to the gun which includes the cheap 3x9 Bushnell scope it came with. Using the stock barrel I am capable of getting sub .25" groups at 50yards and .33-40" groups at 100 yards. Dollar for dollar my little 10/22 is much more accurate than his $3000 benchrest gun.

I wonder how good of a shot some of these guys would be if you take their equipment away and make them shoot a stock rifle. My guess is there would be a lot of complaining (make that excuses).
I am amazed how this thread has deteriorated into the bashing of an element of the shooting sport that does not appeal to the average military weapon enthusiast. Let me say one word Jim Zumbo. Wait, thats two words but I think you get my drift.... For every benchrest shooter that you criticize as be ing dependant on his equipment there is perhaps a Biatholon competitor who is laughing at your shooting because you can't hit the broad side of a cows ass after getting your heart rate up to 200+ racing from target to target.
Gentlemen, tolerence among us is a virtue. United we stand.

[drhall762]

For my .50BMG I reload using the RCBS Ammomaster press. Lots of leverage. I found that by adding a bushing and a ram extension I can load any other caliber that I would load in a single station press. I use it for all my "low density" rounds, those for my collection that I may shoot 20 rounds through a year. The best part about it is leverage. Cases such as .30-06 don't stand a chance. Down - Up sized. Virtually no effort.

For all the rest I rely on my Dillon 650. I use it for .45ACP, .38/.357, 7.62x39, .223 Rem, and & 7.62 NATO. It is the best thing I ever purchased for volume reloading. In fact, the only thing that ever slows me down with the 650 is loading the primer tubes.

My $.02 worth.

Dave :sniper:

[Geilt]

I am amazed how this thread has deteriorated into the bashing of an element of the shooting sport that does not appeal to the average military weapon enthusiast. Let me say one word Jim Zumbo. Wait, thats two words but I think you get my drift.... For every benchrest shooter that you criticize as be ing dependant on his equipment there is perhaps a Biatholon competitor who is laughing at your shooting because you can't hit the broad side of a cows ass after getting your heart rate up to 200+ racing from target to target.
Gentlemen, tolerence among us is a virtue. United we stand.

Thank you for being the voice of reason. Perhaps I let myself get a little carried away and definitely off-topic.

Now about them Biatholon guys... I'll tell you something about those guys... (smirk) Actually anyone that can haul arse around cross country sking and then shoot as well as they do using nothing more than peep sites DEFINITELY deserves respect.

[tomoshenko]

Thank you for being the voice of reason. Perhaps I let myself get a little carried away and definitely off-topic.

Now about them Biatholon guys... I'll tell you something about those guys... (smirk) Actually anyone that can haul arse around cross country sking and then shoot as well as they do using nothing more than peep sites DEFINITELY deserves respect.
amen

[NavajoNPaleFace]

I use the RCBS Rock Chucker for my precision rifle rounds.

I can't get the +/- .005" OAL on anything else.

Although I don't own a progressive I know lots of reloaders and the vote is split down the middle on obtaining accuracy on one. On the other hand, with the right dies, accuracy is there on a single stage.

But, as wth anything there are many factors to precision loads. Consistancy is the key and it begins with consistancy in cases, length of cases (both trimmed and loaded), powder charge, bullets, the whole nine yards.

You simply work with recipes until you find one you and your rifle likes and tweek it from there.

I have developed many recipes on my RCBS that will, in my rifles, rock the house! LOL