Reloading vs Factory Rounds

[cimmaronkid]

I think most of us have come to the decision that reloading might be the only way possible to keep shooting the battle rifles as much as we like. Even with the Winchester Nato at $.50/round that doesn't leave a lot of ammo for pulling the trigger on. I dont think any of us want to pay $500/1000 rounds. So lets look at a typical break down today and base this on 1000 loaded rounds of reloads.

Brass per 1000.....$108.00 (Bulk buy)
Primers per 1000...$ 25.99 for milspec
Bullets per 1000....$144.50 for Winchester FMJBT 147 grain
Powder per 1000...$ 126.99 for 8 lb 4895 (45 grains load. You only need seven lbs and have some left over)
(There is 7000 grains/pound. Figure you are sloppy and allow an extra 10% for spilled and re-dos)

Total for 1000 rounds is $405.38 or $.405/round
But wait a minute! We have brass that we can reuse again so the next time around the cost is only $293.38/1000 or $.294/round.

This is assuming that there are few or no bulk buys on the components. By using the power of the forum, this cost can be reduced quite a bit by buying surplus powder, discolored bullets (they shoot just as well, just discolored) bulk brass and primers in large lots. By saving the extra money, you have just paid for your reloading equipment vs the expensive factory loads. Prices came from MidwayUSA, and Dillons. With just a little bit of work, these prices can get to $200/1000 or $.20/round. I know I forgot to add in shipping charges, hazmat fees, etc, but I didn't add them in to the loaded factory ammo either.

By doing bulk buys in the regions or the areas it will give us a chance to get together, shoot, swap lies, and continue our use of these guns.

[Geilt]

Thanks for pointing this out so clearly. It really motivates me to get my arse in gear. It also helps put in to perspective the potential of getting some group buys going.

[weasel_master]

If you've got a C&R you can get some discounts there as well. Grafs has better discounts from what I hear as well.

[Geilt]

I am in the middle of a divorce so my spending is restriced some what. I have the paperwork for my C&R license though. I am waiting to get closer to finalizing things before I send it in. When all is said and done with dropping one license (marriage) and getting a new one (C&R) I'll be very happy chappy in deed.

[bullseye]

Grafs does have a nice discount. :) Also if you can pick up your powder within reasonable driving distance for a good price, it beats shipping. I am looking at powder for around 85-90.00/keg and bullets at 70-85/1000 picked up. Round trip one tank of gas and that beats the heck out of shipping and hazmat. I go to the range even when I'm not shooting to pick up brass, why not, it's free? :) Group buys are great, just set a little money aside each week and look for one going on and get in on it. You'll be glad you did.

[nevada]

Is that price for NATO quality brass? There is someplace online that sells components from demilled ammo.

[okie shooter]

I don't think any one argues that reloading is less expensive than new ammo. You need to get into the hobby though for it to pay off, don't forget you have some serious money into the gear before you pull the lever once and there is a tiime factor, so you better enjoy reloading while relaxing or it will become work to you(on lots of things remember if you cant save more than you can make at work you really better enjoy time at the reloading bench). I imagine you can shoot off a weeks worth of evenings in a hour on the range if you like to rock and roll.

That said due to the lack of good surplus 7.62x51 ammo out there lately reloading will become better and better looking for folks. Just do the reasearch on what you want to shoot, compared to what it is new. There are some rounds I dont think you can really reload economically but others work out well(9mm plinking ammo would be hard to do for what it sells for in bulk or even wally)

So if you are a new shooter, do your homework, read all you can on the presses and reloading, try to get with a reloader and try your hand at the hobby before you jump into it. I have this hunch I will break out my presses when I get old enough to retire(and thats a while down the road still) unless I run out of the surplus stuff I have around the house.

[Geilt]

I am sitting on 800 or so rounds of Aussie 7.62 NATO stuff and about 200 rounds of the Winchester NATO stuff I recently found at a gun show. I don't want to shoot it though so I'd rather reload. I'd be more apt to shoot it if I could reload the brass after it runs through my Cetmes. I know I could reload it with the right depriming tools and primers but without the ejection buffer I am leary because of the huge dent in the side.

There is a difference in the 308Win and 7.62 NATO brass but is it safe to use 308Win brass with a 150gr bullet if you drop the powder charge accordingly to replicate the pressure generated in NATO rounds?

[GreenWolf]

...don't forget you have some serious money into the gear before you pull the lever once and there is a tiime factor...
+1

Perhaps the biggest thing that is overlooked is time and effort spent trimming the brass. Resizing, priming, and loading up the brass go very quickly. It is conceivable that a patient person could manually reload a thousand rounds of ammo. But trimming, deburring, and chamfering the brass is a bear. I hate it. After operating a hand cranker for 200 rounds, you'll be looking for alternatives. Many buy the Giraud trimmer which (with a few trimmer dies) will set you back $350-400. This is an area where a creative inventor can really shine.

[okie shooter]

+1

Perhaps the biggest thing that is overlooked is time and effort spent trimming the brass. Resizing, priming, and loading up the brass go very quickly. It is conceivable that a patient person could manually reload a thousand rounds of ammo. But trimming, deburring, and chamfering the brass is a bear. I hate it. After operating a hand cranker for 200 rounds, you'll be looking for alternatives. Many buy the Giraud trimmer which (with a few trimmer dies) will set you back $350-400. This is an area where a creative inventor can really shine.


I thought one of the best ways of operateing a trimmer was the thought of chucking the trimmer into a variable speed drill, I remember reading that but not sure if any one has any plans on line how to set one up.

[GreenWolf]

I thought of that too, but for a good trim, some precise control is needed. and then you need to deburr and chamfer.

[okie shooter]

I thought of that too, but for a good trim, some precise control is needed. and then you need to deburr and chamfer.

Some sort of case holder and a drill press might be the ticket too. that way if you set the length well and there wasnt alot of flex in the press it might be the ticket.

[GreenWolf]

I was thinking of taking apart a Lyman trimmer and using that as good parts for a new setup. I like the Lyman trimmer because it has a sort of chuck with a lever for the brass. The brass comes on and off real easy. I'd like to mount this on the base plate of my drill press, and use that. It would be a lot faster than fiddling around with the Lyman the way it is now.

[cimmaronkid]

Should be able to make a simple stand that the trimmer stand can be mounted on and the handle removed and the cutter and shaft could be inserted in a drill press. Great idea guys.

NATO brass has thicker walls then commerical brass. The way the CETME action works is why you should use NATO brass. You can shoot the commerical brass but be sure and get a broken case extractor to be safe. It helps a lot to load commerical down to NATO pressure as the .308 commerical load is stouter than the 7.62x51 NATO load. If I remember right, Remington has the softest brass overall with Winchester 2nd and then Federal if you can ever find them.

I agree with Okie as the fact that there is just not enought time in the day when you are working. When you are retired it is different and quite wonderful if you planned for it in advance. Work hard early in your life, make good invewstments, and plan to retire early and you will get there and can then shoot and reload all you want.

[GreenWolf]

...And trimming a ton of brass makes even 50 cents a round look good. All this trimming stuff is important if you are buying once-fired brass that got all stretched out in a machine gun. You only need to trim if your brass is out of spec, so if anyone wants in on the reloading train, bide your time for good brass. Once you're set up, loading up 50-100 rounds is no biggie.

[Geilt]

A number of companies make powered trimmers and I do seem to recall at least one has a rig that includes the use of a drill press or at least a cordless screwdriver. I know for sure RCBS and Lymann have adapters to fit to their case trimmers.

[tomoshenko]

RCBS makes their X sizing die to keep trimming to a minimum.
The claim is that you trim them once and the X die prevents neck lengthing.
I haven't tried it myself.

[nevada]

I bought an Xdie in .223. I don't think it is worth the extre time needed to use it. I think Lee has a ZipPull trimmer that is supposed work well and is convenient to use.

[pigpen]

I got the lee hand primer thingy and use to prime while I'm watching TV. I try to use slave labor(kids:icon_razz: ) for separating the cases from the media & other mundane tasks. My girls are not strong enough to re-size, yet.

[tomoshenko]

I got the lee hand primer thingy and use to prime while I'm watching TV. I try to use slave labor(kids:icon_razz: ) for separating the cases from the media & other mundane tasks. My girls are not strong enough to re-size, yet.
I like your style! I must encourage my 15 year old to lift weights and pack on some muscle to take on some of these tasks. I always wanted to be a director...:-)

[pigpen]

I guess I shouldn't use the word slave, more like indentured servitude. I do pay the bills ya know. When they get a little older, they are 9 & 3, they can learn how to read the calipers and scales and then start sort'n brass by weight, lenth, head stamp, ect.

[XO3319]

you can do it cheaper

My break point is 15 cents a round

I have 700 cases I got after an M60D shoot in 1993

I bought 3k 147gr FMJBT, South African pulled for 40 bucks per thousand

IMR 4895 for 79 bucks for 8 Lbs and

5k CCI Military Large Rifle Primers for 70 bucks

you have to buy in bulk though

I buy it when I can get it cheaper than 15 centes a round, but never buy INDIAN:afro1:

[GreenWolf]

My breakdown of costs (per cartridge) for 308 are as follows:

0.10 - boxer brass
0.02 - CCI large military primers
0.06 - collet-pulled 147 gr. surplus bullets
0.12 - 42 gr. commercial powder of your choice

$0.30/ round total

The work of loading 1000 rounds will save you about $200. More if you scrounge up better deals than me. Much more if you started hoarding 5-10+ years ago, but we can't do anything about what happened 5-10+ years ago and this is our present reality.

If you save the brass, the next batch will be $0.20/round. The whole process basically pays for your reloading equipment.

You have the option of buying higher quality bullets than milsurp.

[GreenWolf]

Don't forget to include shipping and hazmat charges in your math.

[XO3319]

I use the Lee hand primer and Lee trimmers on my hand drill

I do all my reloading in stages

resize the brass

trim if necessary-- checking each case with calipers

reaming out the primer pocket if military cases...checking for case-head seperation, and champhering the neck

then tumbling in corn cob media to clean

then I store them by how many times fired

then I reload

and I reload for 15 calibers

[XO3319]

The hazmat charges are why you have to buy in BULK :)

[GreenWolf]

The hazmat charges are why you have to buy in BULK :)
I don't believe that you included those charges in your costs.

You only have 700 cases of machinegun fired brass and enough powder for 1200 or so. How many times have you reloaded the brass?

[bullseye]

there are quite a few places that will pay the hazmat if you buy a case of powder. that is 4-8lb kegs, but it will be the same lot and it all comes under one shipping charge. save up and order primers at the same time for even more savings.

[cimmaronkid]

Looks like XO has got the system down. I just pulled my pricing from two quick sources and as XO has shown, the cost can also be lowered considerably. If you are going to reload, the wild card here that you have the most control over is the brass. Make yourself a screen from PVC pipe and small cloth mesh so the brass hits that and dumps it where you can find it all or get the E & L brass catcher for the G3. It is a little funky looking but it works and is easily modified to fit around the various scope mounts as it is plastic.

I do the same thing that XO does and work up the brass in stages as well. A lot easier to do, and a lot of it you can do in front of the boob tube.

As far as shipping and hazmat charges go, you will have these as well on the loaded factory ammo so they kinda even out?

[Big Steve]

The Lee Zip trimmer is the shiznit. When I got mine I wasn't sure what I was ordering but it was so cheap I thought what the heck. When I got it I thought what a piece of junk. Then I tried it. It works great. I also bought the three jaw quick chuck thing. It was junk it did not chuck the case very true. The twist chuck works great and just as fast as the three jaw. You just put the case in the chuck, insert the Lee trimmer with your right hand and pull the string a few times with your left hand. It spins the case and cuts off the brass until the trim guide bottoms out and no more brass can be cut off the neck. Perro uses his Lee drill chuck holder in his lathe. If you don't have a lathe the Zip trim is a lot better than a hand drill.
Steve :machinegun:

[Jacobite]

You can save more money if you buy surplus powder. I use WC844 the equivalent of H335 for my 5.56 and have used it for 30-06 in my M1. I am sure you could use it in the 7.62x51 but I never have. If you look you can find surplus IMR 4895 in bulk and also look for I believe it is WCC846 the equivalent of BLC-(2) a good powder for 7.62 NATO.

Pay attention for deals on forums trade boards. I put 253 pieces of unfired mil surp brass on the trade board a week ago and only got one response. Only reason I have not taken the offer is I am hopeing to find brass I would rather have than what was offered.

I would never recomend not getting the mil spec primers to save money but I have used regular CCI and also Federal primers for all my reloading and have had zero problems. That was for three different AR-15's, two M1 Garands, one FAL, and one Cetme as far as semi's go that is. Even if you want to use the mil spec primers and you should, find a gunstore that will buy them in bulk for you. You might save money other than ordering them yourself. If they add them with their order it saves even more on your haz mat charge.

Some people balk at useing surplus powder or pulled bullets. However if you are just blasting at gongs you will get more than decient accuracy. Plus you might find your handloads are more consistant than switching from one mil surp load to another.