Refinishing a classic Finnish M91

[XO3319]

Well this one isn't done yet

It's a 1940 VKT (later Valmet) and it is a very long Finnish M91

but I bought it for 80 bucks in 1998 from a friend at Fort Campbell, KY. It shot well but the wood was always beat up, but the History is great.

There were gouges out of the butt, and it had seen plenty of abuse over it's service life.

Here is the picture of it with it's matching Finn bayonet. You can see it is much longer than a normal M1891/30 and that led to some problems in the refinishing, cleaning and so on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/M1891A.jpg

First thing I did was strip it completely down to it's component part which I don't had been done since it left the factory. The rear band was made of pot metal and broke upon removal, and I had a heck of a time removing the rear tang screw-- a drill press and PB Blaster finally got it free.

From there I used my Foul-Out III on the barrel to remove all copper-- it needed a 40 inch rod to cover the barrel-- and left the other receiver and bolt parts in a healthy solution of Ed's Red.

Then I hit the handguard and stock with good old fashioned Whiting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/Whitingonstock26Feb07.jpg

After 3 coats of that I washed the stock with mineral spirits, but all the oil was not yet leached out of the stock. Citrus-strip was my answer. I painted on multiple coats and let it sit 12 hours per coat before washing it off with mineral spirits.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/Citrustrip27Feb07.jpg

Here it is stripped after a few days of work from Whiting and Citrus-strip. Many gouges to repair and chips out of the stock.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/01Mar07strippart1a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/01Mar07strippedpart1.jpg

Looks like a lot of work left to do!

[XO3319]

I had some chips by the sling swivels both on the butt and on the forestock so I handled those next. Saving the chips that came off when I disassembled the rifle I used Acra-20 from Brownell's to epoxy them back in and let it sit overnight, compressed by surgical tubing.

I was experimenting too with using Minwax stainable wood filler into the deeper gouges. I tried this while also intending to fill the gouges with sawdust from the sanding and tung oil, but I'm not sure how well the wood filler did...it still stands out on the stock after it was removed from soaking in peanut oil

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/4Mar07acra20onforwardslingswivel.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/04Mar07Woodfilleronbutt.jpg

After letting it dry overnight and satisfied with my stock repairs so far I started sanding the stock with 120 grit. As I sanded I scraped sawdust into the gouges and then put a drop of tung oil on the damaged places. Then I let it dry overnight, and did the same thing for 2 more days. Finally I was happy with the repairs to continue to finer grit. There were a lot of gouges, and the filler did not take the stain as well as would have liked. So it took a lot of time a patience to get happier, I guess.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/M91sanded120gritstockrepair.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/5Mar07stockrepair.jpg

From there I worked up progressive grits until I hit 600 grit, then I raised the grain with a damp rag and sanded it down again. Then I used Birchwood Casey stain on the filled areas to try to get them to match, but it didn't work as well as I had hoped. It didn't look bad, but it did not blend well. But the stock was starting to look good.

Here it is sanded and stained

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/M91sandedandstained10Mar07a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/M91sandedandstained10Mar07b.jpg

More coming

[XO3319]

As I was getting the stock ready to go I had already sanded the handguard to 600 grit and it was ready long before the stock was. SO I started soaking the handguard in peanut oil. This was trick taught to me by my gunsmith in NC who after he had sanded his furniture to was he wanted he let it soak in peanut oil (because it was cheap and did the job) and let it dry before applying the final finish. I've used this techique before and it really helps deepen the grain of the wood.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/5Mar07HGpeanutoil.jpg

I use a 2 foot planter with the holes caulked up for the small pieces but the stock took more imagination. First I looked for 6 inch PVC pipe but couldn't find any. Then I found Home Depot worker who actually spoke English who asked if galvanized steel tubing would work as well. So I got a 5 foot length of that pipe and caulked the edges and applied an end cap to on end and placed it in a 5 gallon bucket in case it leaked.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/5foottallpeanutoilsoaker10Mar07.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/peanutoilsoaking12Mar07.jpg

It did leak, but only about an inch or so and I really plug the holes with caulk next time. 5 gallons of peanut oil and a week later and both the stock and handguard were done.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/HGoutofPO11Mar07.jpg

Here is the stock before the peanut oil with the stock insets replaced

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/stockfinalsandingandmetalreplaced12.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/stockmetalreplaced12Mar07.jpg

[XO3319]

Here is the stock emerging from the peanut oil today

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/20Mar07stockoutofPOa.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/20Mar07stockoutofPOb.jpg

you can see the disappointing results from the Minwax filler-- I am hoping that Dem-Bart filler and tung oil will get it to match a little better

As I was waiting for the stock to soak I inspected the parts and painted those that needed more finished...just the front band, some screws and the buttplate-- and then baked them in my old toaster oven at 350 degrees for 2 hours. They were painted with Ceramic Duplicolor Engine Enamel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/metalpartspainted13Mar07.jpg

Filler and tung oil come next and I'll post updates as it emerges:flame:

[okie shooter]

Interesting consept of using the peanut oil to "deepen the finish", did you see if getting the oil up to a liquid tempture(looks like it was cool and the oil was still semi liquid). I just was wondering if getting the oil to just where its clear and not cloudy might aid asorbition into the wood grain.

[pigpen]

Nice job XO & thanks for the ideas. I have an old turk mauser I got from SOG for 57 bucks that I have been using as a refinishing guinea pig. Right now the band holding the front sight onto the barrel is cracked so I have been trying to re attach it. Solder was too weak & didn't work so next I'll try bazing. Once I get the sight secured I'm gonna strip it down & start thinking of how to refinish the stock and metal.

[XO3319]

I am still researching how to replace the rear band. A friend of mine is experimenting and trying to fashion another-- or I might use an old Mosin spare part I have if it fits.

Refinishing is a lot of fun

The oil seems to absorb good either hot or cold-- I soaked each for about 7 days and the oil really creeped into the wood. I would think it would absorb even better warm but I didn't have warm weather.

[k98k792]

Lets keep it friendly guys.

XO, I had the same problems with the woodfiller you did. What I ended up doing was take the saw dust, stain it, let it dry and mixed it with the Tung. Worked pretty well.
That peanut oil did really make the grain POP!

[Private Fuzzy]

I think it is going to look great. It is the bastards who butcher the receiver for a scope mount, grind of the iron sights, and put on some dorky synthetic stock that really frost my butt.:angry:

[hunter_la5]

I think it is going to look great. It is the bastards who butcher the receiver for a scope mount, grind of the iron sights, and put on some dorky synthetic stock that really frost my butt.:angry:


+1, I have no problem with refinishing a rifle so long as it looks original. I don't ever plan on selling my rifles anywho, so I could care less about it's "value"

[Norton]

+1, I have no problem with refinishing a rifle so long as it looks original. I don't ever plan on selling my rifles anywho, so I could care less about it's "value"

Hunter..That's how I feel about it as well.

XO
For deep gouges and nicks, I just smooth them out and leave them.I have never been able to get filler to work on rifles or funiture. An old rifle with a few dents and nick is just fine by me. All of mine have them somewhere. The peanut oil idea is interesting, how are you going to final finish it?

[weasel_master]

Keep the refinishes coming. I enjoy seeing them progress.

[XO3319]

Tung oil 10 coats will be the final finish with steel wool inbetween

then maybe 2F pumice and rottonstone

I do regret the wood filler

[k98k792]

Both of you need to review this http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=1#post1

[M1 Tanker]

Offensive post deleted from all sides. Thread opened.....if ya have nothing nice to say.....then say nothing at all.

[XO3319]

Thanks Tanker

I lost my temper on that one, nuff said. I'll turn the other cheek next time.

[Texxut]

Sorry I stirred you all up. Today is a new day.

[pigpen]

I think I contributed to the mayhem also and for that I'm sorry. I think it is that time of the month for me.

[XO3319]

I know some of you don't appreciate refinishing milsurps, but here goes anyway. This was a beater rifle in fairly bad condition. It's only intrinsic value is to me. So I can't really credit any hurt feelings. No cartouches were damaged during this refinish (so far).

The handguard just took it's 4th coat of tung oil today, the mottled color of the wood is showing up nicely. The Finns always used a nice bunch of wood for their rifles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/23Mar074thcoatTOHG.jpg

The stock took more doing as usual. The peanut oil dried in 3-4 days, and then I applied 2 coats of Dem-Barts wood sealer and filler to fill in some of the other minor gouges, which worked better. First you paint on a heavy coat and let it dry for 30 minutes, then sand it down to bare wood. Then another coat and do the same. Took some doing, and then I took it through to 600 grit paper again and cleaned it up.

1st coat of sealer (you can imagine the sanding part yourself)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/23Mar07Dem-BartSealeronstock.jpg

ready for finish

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/23Mar07stockaftersealer.jpg

and then the 1st coat of tung oil, applied with fingers until it was dry

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/23Mar07stock1stcoatTO.jpg

I might go for 12 coats of tung oil on this one, I haven't decided yet-- then 2F pumice and rottonstone

[GreenWolf]

I know some of you don't appreciate refinishing milsurps, but here goes anyway.
Judging from the condition that your rifle was in, it would never be a "fine collectible." It's a beater milsurp. IMHO, you are not "scrubbing history" but "giving an old warhorse some TLC." So please do continue. I'm very interested watching your progress.

[XO3319]

4th coat of tung oil on 26 March

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/26Mar074thcoatTOstocka.jpg

coming along nicely

more pictures after the 8th coat tommorrow

[nevada]

Looks like it gonna be a beaut.

[XO3319]

I think I will be going for 12 coats of tung oil

the mottled dried birch the Finns used was great looking, but this stock has suffered a lot of abuse

[XO3319]

8th coat of Tung oil on stock, 11th on handguard 30 Mar 07

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/30Mar078thcoatTOa.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/30Mar0712thcoatTOHG.jpg

31 Mar 07 12th coat on the handguard-- should be the final coat if the stock keeps coming along this way

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/31Mar0712thcoatTOHG.jpg

It seems to be preogressing nicely

Next will be the 12th coat and metal replacement

The rear band replacement is still being fashioned so it might take a while to get her back together and shooting again

[Smokehouse69]

That stock is really starting to look nice, nice pattern.

[pigpen]

Very nice!

[XO3319]

4 f pumice applied to the handguard-- mixed with to a slurry with Vegetable oil and applied- 1 coat
Rottonstone applied with soft cloth- 3 coats (with vegetable oil)

here it is

Stock received 11th coat Formby's Tung Oil today, tommorrow is last coat-- cure for 2 days then the same treatment

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/2Apr074fpumiceandRottonstone.jpg

[ptrthgr8]

So, Mods, just looking for a little clarification here... I'm assuming it's okay to disagree with what someone's posting as long as you're nice about it, right? Or are you saying that we can't disagree, period?

For starters, I understand that this rifle is someone's personal property and since America's still a (mostly) free country one can do with their property as they chose (provided it's legal, yadda, yadda, yadda). Given that, though, when someone chooses to take a path such as this and then post it on an Internet forum, they're sorta opening themselves up to criticism, right?

I am a Finn weapons collector (so far 21 Mosin Nagants, 1 M23 Luger, 2 SVT-40s, and 1 SVT-38) and I'm personally not in favor of taking such drastic steps when it comes to refinishing a rifle in this manner. I feel it destroys much of the rifle's history and, while the owner indicated no plans to sell it, such actions do destroy the value of a rifle like this. Wartime Finn M91s are far from common and the VKTs in particular are among the rarer variants. I paid $250 for my 1940 VKT M91 early last year -- and I thought that was a bargain.

So, again, I understand the owner can do what he wishes with his rifle, but at the same time I think it's a disservice to all members to quash a discussion around alternative ideas. I didn't see the previous posts before they were deleted, but based upon what's implied in the remaining posts I'm guessing there was some less than adult behavior going on. But my point is that not everyone wants to pretty up their rifles in a drastic manner like this, so I think it's only fair to discuss the pros and cons of performing a complete refinishing job like this.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[jmikey]

Press on XO, it looks great. If .0001% of the rifles out there had that much care applied to them we would have a beautiful crop of milsurps. Those who are serious collectors should have at it and leave that old weapon looking like a POS. The rest of us reserve the right to spend a little time and care to bring it back a little to the right condition. That's why I belong to this forum!
YMMV!

[rustypirate]

It is fine to disagree, in fact I like to hope to agree to disagree with just about anyone.

We draw the line at making personal attacks or slights towards someone just because you disagree.

Keep things civil, or even joking, and all is fine.

this is not a site with an attitude of "YOU MUST ALL AGREE WITH THE MODS"

We don't care if you disagree, just don't make anything personal.

Agreed?

[ptrthgr8]

We don't care if you disagree, just don't make anything personal.

Agreed?

Agreed 100%, Rusty. In my previous post I made a point of disagreeing without being an ass-hat about it... at least I hope XO doesn't think I was being that way. On a personal level it pains me to see an otherwise collectible rifle (in terms of collectors who appreciate the history of every bit of the rifle) be sent through a refinishing process like that, but at the same time I don't wish to personally attack XO for making a decision about his personal property. I wouldn't do something like that to one of my rifles, but I also won't berate someone else for making such a decision. I will disagree and post what I personally feel is a better alternative (i.e. less intrusive cleaning), but I won't call anyone names. Well, not as long as they leave the hacksaw on the bench. :)

At the very least, I think it's abundantly clear that XO loves his rifle and, regardless of the cleaning/refinishing process implemented, I appreciate anyone who loves their Finn rifle. :)

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[XO3319]

I appreciate your opinion and I have previously said Many do not like people refinishing milsurps. I normally (when I posted in our sad departed forum) posted a disclaimer to that end when I posted refinishing work before. I don't like ugly rifles, and what many collectors see as an original stock with normal wear and service tear I see a stock that has not been taken of. I did not post that disclaimer this time up front, and I should have, because I thought most remembered what I had said before. What most vets remember of a service finish is a finish not properly applied or taken care of. There are many points to differ towards these ends.

Trust me when I say this rifle needed to be refinished. It had no collectable value to me or anyone else. And since I don't sell them in any case the value is what I place upon it.

When I was removing the stock from the receiver, my gunsmith/engraver friend said to me. "You know the work you are putting into this far exceeds any value this rifle has." I'll take his 50 years in the gun business at face value. And since I am learning how to do this it's an 80 dollar investment towards that end.

The previous commenter posted a remark and I made the mistake of responding to it and escalating the return. That was my fault and I have apologized to the moderators and those who rightly expect better of this site. The mods rightly deleted both sides of the post.

I don't apologize for refinishing the rifle and you have all the right the world to say I am destroying it's collectors value. Perhaps.

I feel I am restoring it to it's previous glory and giving it many more years of shooting pleasure. Since I am not selling it, ever, and only giving it away it has what value I impart upon it. It will look like it was issued again to what degree I can restore it and that is more than enough for me. I did make some mistakes with this one (Minwax wood filler- ugh) but those mistakes were not the decision to refinish in the first place. I am not installing a camo synthetic stock, a pistol grip and hot pink neon lights. The stock is being refinished and repaired and the weapon receiving a gunsmith level cleaning to include some minor metal refinishing. To my great credit I did not install a NO FEAR sticker on the stock (as I saw done on a custom skeet gun at Fort Bragg in 1992- it almost made me cry:melt: ) Bubba was not involved, but some good old fashioned gunsmithing learning by experience did occur. A collectable rifle is A) shootable to the extent ability and age allows and B) presentable. Wood has to be preserved and taken care of or it will not fulfill the function it was designed to do-- protect the rifle and the shooter.

If you don't like that you are not going to change my mind. But I encourage the debate.

That being said the 12th coat of tung oil went on today. 4F Pumice and rottonstone will follow after a few days curing to cut the shine on the stock.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/3Apr0712thcoatTOb.jpg

[M1 Tanker]

As long as he doesn't drill/tap/grind/cut/weld/jbweld/spraypaint or remove markings....I don't care.

And of course you can disagree, you just can't attack someone.

[XO3319]

Thanks Tanker

No cartouches were harmed during the refinishing of this rifle

And to my credit I love its history too. History shouldn't have to look like those Gew 88 Tomato Stakes that are being sold out there. A historical rifle is one that looks and shoots like it did back in the day, not one that was used as a picket in a barbed wire entanglement.

[hunter_la5]

I think it looks great. keep up the good work!

[ptrthgr8]

A historical rifle is one that looks and shoots like it did back in the day, not one that was used as a picket in a barbed wire entanglement.

Agreed. Except that the rifle you're refinishing isn't going to look like it did the day it was first issued, nor is it going to look like it ever did when in use by the Finns. For the sake of comparison, here are a few photos of my 1941 VKT M91, which is now about as close to unissued as you can get:

http://images111.fotki.com/v742/photos/4/47955/3460467/VKT_right-vi.jpg

http://images111.fotki.com/v745/photos/4/47955/3460467/VKT_left-vi.jpg

http://images16.fotki.com/v301/photos/4/47955/3460467/VKT_buttleft-vi.jpg

http://images112.fotki.com/v595/photos/4/47955/3460467/VKT_buttright-vi.jpg

http://images16.fotki.com/v288/photos/4/47955/3460467/VKT_rec-vi.jpg

True, this rifle was in better condition when I received it than the one you have -- so I know this isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison -- but what I'm attempting to point out is the significant difference in finishes between the two. Even if you knocked down the shine on your rifle, it's still not going to look anything at all like it did when it was issued. Your rifle no longer has the general look of the mottled stain/tar/rancid reindeer fat finish that typifies Finn rifles. This rifle was fairly dirty when I first got it -- but all I did was give the stock and handguard a good scrub with a synthetic pad and mineral spirits before applying three liberal coats of Behr's #600 tung oil finish. This process preserved the original Finn finish while at the same time bring the grain patterns back to life and imparting preservative properties to the wood. There are other "original dirt" guys who wouldn't even have used an oil finish at all since the Finns never used oil on their stocks, but I'm also a practical guy -- I shoot my rifles all the time and the weather isn't always perfect. Still, though, I've managed to maintain the original look of the rifle while at the same time making it "pretty."

Again, please understand that I'm not trying to start a flame war. But I have a hard time when someone says they're trying to restore a rifle to its original glory when they've gone well beyond that stage. It's entirely possible for a total dog of a rifle to be restored more or less to its original condition without going to the extreme steps you've taken on this particular rifle. Here's a prime example, a Russian 1917 Sestroryetsk M91 that when I first saw it was one of the dirtiest and nastiest rifles I've ever seen:

http://images104.fotki.com/v465/photos/4/47955/945493/1917Sesty-vi.jpg

http://images6.fotki.com/v76/photos/4/47955/945493/1917Sesty_butt-vi.jpg

http://images6.fotki.com/v77/photos/4/47955/945493/1917Sesty_butt2-vi.jpg

(The shine in the photos is primarily due to the over zealous flash I was using when taking these photos indoors one Saturday morning.)

This rifle was thoroughly nasty when I got it. But rather than taking extreme steps to restore this rifle, I took more minor steps -- several hours in the oven to remove the cosmo, several hours srubbing with mineral spirits, a couple hours with the Behr's #600 tung oil finish. I left the scratches and gouges in place since they're now a part of the rifle's history; they also didn't effect the functionality at all and my skills aren't advanced enough to use fillers on a large scale without them being horribly, horribly obvious after the fact. (That sort of thing is definitely an art unto itself. :) )

I'm definitely a huge fan of rifles that are functional and look good. That's why my milsurp rifle collection (87 rifles at last count) is primarily comprised of unissued or near-unissued examples. I love the history of these rifles and I personally prefer to keep them in as close to an as-issued condition as possible. If that mean not filling gouges or completely stripping the original finish, then so be it. If I wanted a pretty rifle simply for the sake of having a pretty rifle, I'd buy a new rifle. To me, that's half the fun of these milsurps -- enjoying the history that's at least partially definited by the less than perfect finishes, gouges, etc. Cracks and broken stocks are one thing (since they have the potential to impact the rifle's functionality) and it's fair to say that cosmo, dirt, and grime from being in storage for many decades isn't part of the "original condition" equation since none were present when the rifle first left the factory. (True, neither were the gouges and scratches, but, again, filling them and not having them be obvious is an extremely difficult project that's well beyond my abilities.)

Anyhow, I think I've made my point clear. Again, I agree that it's your rifle and you can have at 'er. I just feel compelled to offer alternatives for those who may never have been in a similar position as you and I.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[nevada]

Well, there are those that like and will pay for a good looking handgun or long gun that has been refinished, and it has value to them.

There are those that cringe at cleaning old oil off an old arm.

There are still enough Mausers, Mosins-Nagants, Nagants, Walthers or whatnot to please everyone, witness the chromed guns of Classic Arms.

I understand the "keep it original" thinking, especialy if it really is rare or getting so. But a $75 to $100 rifle made in the who knows how many millions?
Eh. Who cares? Some ammo is harder to get than the guns. I have two guns that I paid $1,000 for, one refinished and one original. One snubbed by hardcore collectors and one by buyers that like good looking guns, not original.
Doesn't matter,I like them.

There is a place for both and any inbetween here. You can say you can't stand chromed guns, or bubbas etc.

You can't pass judgement on the owner. Simple.

[XO3319]

Well said nevada

I appreciate ptrthgr8's point but this rifle was a beater and an 80 dollar rifle, at best. Whether my effort was worth it will be in the judgement of the guy who owns it next. If he is a die hard collector I am doomed. ptrthgr your rifle also underwent a repair, as evidenced by the brass pin through the centerline to reinforce a crack. My technique is arguably the same. An oil finish applied by hand differs in application. Mine is one method as appeciated in the eyes of few gunsmiths, yours arguably works well too, more than well enough in my eyes. Each weapon is different and this Finn required a lot more work than normal. Normal is simply sanding, raising the grain then the final finish. My lesson learned from this one is don't try to repair gouges beyond simple repair and simply accept them as character. Fillers are bad news as well.

There are many ways to refinish a rifle. Yours is not the definative answer. Before and after photos will show mine to be an acceptable one for my purposes. But maybe not for yours. Again I am sorry I did not post the disclaimer on top to avoid hurt feelings as I did before.

I still won't apologize for the refinish as this rifle needed it badly in order to continue it's shooting life. And it will continue to shoot.

[XO3319]

and to be said I horribly agree with ptrthgr8's view on fillers

Don't use them unles it is original sawdust from the sanding of the stock. They will not blend at all with artificial fillers.

[ptrthgr8]

Again I am sorry I did not post the disclaimer on top to avoid hurt feelings as I did before.

I still won't apologize for the refinish as this rifle needed it badly in order to continue it's shooting life. And it will continue to shoot.

No need for disclaimers or apologies, XO. My feelings aren't the least bit hurt. You'd have to kick my dogs, key my new GTI, or make fun of the Red Wings for my feelings to be hurt. :)

I definitely don't want this to turn into an "XO vs. ptrthgr8" for the final verdict. I prefer my way, you prefer yours. We both agree on the use of fillers (Pros only, please. :) ) but it's still cool for us to disagree on the rest. And that's what makes this whole exercise fun -- we can both discuss the pros/cons of the various approaches, but at the end of the day we're still friends. And I wouldn't have it any other way. :)

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[XO3319]

Very much agreed

I don't kick dogs and have no reason to dis the Red Wings

Please stop a friend from using a filler, if you can

I am hoping the end result will be very much worth it

And if it makes you feel any better the bore-- after the Foul Out III was applied-- lightly pitted. It had been treated horribly down the road, not like your 1941 M91.

I wish my stock looked as good as that one.

[Rampager]

See...this is why I like this board (not directed at anyone BTW). This board, like Cetme rifles was, is friendly. Unlike some boards, which I won't name where everything turns into a name calling pissing contest which is what I believe we want to stay away from here.

Getting back to the subject on restoring/refinishing...
I like some mil-surplus guns to be all original, dings and all. Like WWII guns and rare historical guns....just depends on rarity, price, history etc.

RC K98's are a good example that can go either way IMHO. Some believe they should be kept as you buy them with the red peeling Russian applied shelac, while others think they should look like the day they were captured while still in German hands without the shelac (I agree with the later BTW). But I respect other opinions that the shelac is part of that guns history. It's all in want you want.

But...I too have stripped, restored and refinished many a gun including some C&R's. I just refinished another Hakim with a badly cracked stock that looked like it had been chewed on by a dog. Did I ruin it by buying an unissued Sarco stock ($150) and putting a new finish on it...or should I have left it alone (cracked beyond repair)?

Same with Century built guns that have had their receivers torched off and been rebuilt...do you keep the wood original or spruce it up??? Same goes for kit guns. I restore/refinish most of these, but I have left a few alone that I liked the wood's patina on...again it all depends on what you want.

I do like the look on some guns the have been "around the block" also.

Again I'm not preaching to anyone, just stating my opinion here amongst friends.

[Teyvareb]

Being a kind of 'sit on the fence' person, I can understand both points. I've got a 1938 RC Mauser 98 Kar. with the original stock. It's got that classic military "been sitting around forever" look to it, and it looks fine. However, I know that the wood has an outstanding grain pattern to it. I've been debating for a long time whether to keep it more original, or clean it up. There's alot of history in that stock, sweat stains, grimy hands performing the same motions for practice till they bleed, things like that. But I also know that if the original owner had kept it, it'd probably go through a good shining and be passed down a few times to a son and son of son.

I'm sure there are quite a few people out there with that attitude as well. Maybe I should just buy a second and refinish one of them...

[Rampager]

IMHO, if you are sitting on the fence, I'd do just that..leave it alone. RC's are still $200-$300 (depends) so why not get a beater and spruce it up instead?

[M1 Tanker]

Being a kind of 'sit on the fence' person, I can understand both points. I've got a 1938 RC Mauser 98 Kar. with the original stock. It's got that classic military "been sitting around forever" look to it, and it looks fine. However, I know that the wood has an outstanding grain pattern to it. I've been debating for a long time whether to keep it more original, or clean it up. There's alot of history in that stock, sweat stains, grimy hands performing the same motions for practice till they bleed, things like that. But I also know that if the original owner had kept it, it'd probably go through a good shining and be passed down a few times to a son and son of son.

I'm sure there are quite a few people out there with that attitude as well. Maybe I should just buy a second and refinish one of them...

All, and I mean all, Russian Capture K98's are incorrect as purchased. They buttplates are blued (wrong) and the stocks are shellaced (wrong). The best thing to do is remove both and then just rub some gun oil in the stock. Then its Correct.

[Teyvareb]

Actually, mine they got backwards. The buttplate is covered in some black shellac like substance, and the stock is free of all enamel type finish. The hand guard does have what appears to be pine pitch on it though. Very surprising otherwise, which is why I picked it up. That, and the bore was clean with no pitting, and the receiver was barely worn.

I also have a beater YC, but the stock on it is some kind of soft, light grained wood, and looks very wrong for it, especially since I already cleaned it up.

[nevada]

LOL. Teyvareb, I know just what you mean. When I see pics of cleaned RC 98s, I want to do the same. But I like knowing that rifle was captured from Germans and redone / used by Russians. I go back and forth on that one. I have a Yugo 98. If I give in, I'll grab it first.

[jfowl31]

Since this topic has completely gone off topic from the original posting of 1 rifle to just a discussion of refinishing in general.............. Ill post my stace... do whatever the hell you want to do with your own rifle. Every rifle that is "ruined" by a refinish raises the value of every other one that isnt. Im all for refinishing, and even bubba-ing for that matter... its the freedom that I cherish in this country.

I took a mismatched, rebarreled, restocked K31... sold the original stock, sights, and bands, stripped the barrel, sanded and reblued all the metal to a shiny deep blue, threw on an aftermarket walnut Boyds stock, and finished the stock with a dark walnut and polyurethane, and added a scope mount and a big varmint scope. I still plan to chop the barrel back a few inches and put on a target crown, and I have been in the process of (for a year or so now) trying to figure out a way to drill and tap the receiver for a scope mount that fits over center of the bore, but the rifle ejects rounds straight up.........

I appreciate many people not liking what I did and still will do to my rifle, and I appreciate the extreme collector who doesnt like to do ANYTHING to their rifle, and I appreciate anyone in between... I do know that I have one helluva deer rifle that shoots better than my Remington 700 Heavy barreled 308, that cost me so far a grand total of about $400 including the scope and mount. A lot of guys would say just go buy a remchester, but then Id have a run of the mill rifle thats as un-unique as it can be...... and besides all that, Remington and Winchester still dont make a straight pull bolt action.

I can post pictures if anyone wants to see...............

AND I cant wait to see the end result of this Finn... Id love to see it in person, as a picture can only do so much justice. I can tell from the pictures the depth of the grain. Looks like it has a REALLY deep "Tiger's eye" look to it that Im sure is breath-taking in person. You did a really nice job on it regardless of whether its an Original Finn approved method of refinish or not.

Ive always wondered that if the original rifle owner applied an oil to his stock........ is it no longer a collectable rifle? Its not original from the factory anymore........ The purist mindset of collecting just doesnt make sense to me... EVERY rifle has been modified at some point unless its sat in the original factory since it was produced.

Im glad we are able to keep things civil over here. Ive left forums before over people being rude and overly obnoxious about stuff like this.

[nevada]

jfowl31! GASP!!! You DIDN"T!!!!!!!! The pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JUST KIDDING!

[jfowl31]

I know... Im a horrible person... I tried to model it after the 22-250 my dad gave to me.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/jfowl31/100_0656.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/jfowl31/100_0653.jpg

[ptrthgr8]

Ive always wondered that if the original rifle owner applied an oil to his stock........ is it no longer a collectable rifle? Its not original from the factory anymore........ The purist mindset of collecting just doesnt make sense to me... EVERY rifle has been modified at some point unless its sat in the original factory since it was produced.

I'm not a hard-core purist, but I'm definitely more conservative than liberal when it comes to the subject. From my perspective, anything that was done to a rifle by the soldiers/armorers/factories while it was in service is fine. Most collectors I know look at it that way, too. If they oiled the stock, fine. If parts were swapped out during a refurb and it's no longer matching, fine. If some crazy Finn warrior painted his M91 bright pink, fine. Well... it would be an eyesore, but I'm sure it would have a helluva story. The purist mindset doesn't make sense to you any more than the hacksaw mindset makes sense to me. Why destroy history? That's the part I don't understand. But I'm sure you don't understand why I'd consider hacking and drilling/tapping to be the same as destroying a rifle. :) It's one of those viscious cycles, I guess. :)

Regardless, I, too, appreciate the fact that we can all discuss things without someone getting their panties in a wad.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[jfowl31]

See I just look at history differently I guess. In 100 years, or even less, we'll all be a part of history too.

Some kid in the year 2150 will be saying... This Mosin was refinished by the Finns, and then went into really bad condition during storage. Some guy back in 2000 or so bought it and refinished it again... this time MUCH better than the Finns did. Thats why this one is in soooo much better shape than the crappy hack jobs that the Finns did, and thats why its worth $50,000 as opposed to $300. Man can you imagine if everyone would have actually improved the riles back then rather than being so LAZY?

j/k, but it does bring on some more questions.... The "original" Mosins arent worth crap, yet the refinished ones are worth something.............

And what constitutes "history"? I mean a K31 was never used to kill anyone in any war......... so does it have history since it was just issued to some regular Joe who could shoot well? Or does a rifle have to be used in a major war? And then... what if its unissued? No history there... What Guru makes the distinguishment of what has history and what doesnt and when said history starts and stops. What if some German kept his K98K a bit after the war and then repainted it... is it then "bubba"? or is it still "history"?

I just sever all ties with "history" and instead of making the rifles "collectors" I make them "mine".

All this said, and Ive never owned a milsurp with any kind of real collector value... just MN's, RC's, and a few other cheapies... and all Ive got left is the 1 K31 in the milsurp category. But I bet some dude is really enjoying the MN that I stripped sanded and stained to the most beautiful luster... Too bad I hated shooting that rifle... it sure was purdy. The bolt stuck so bad that I bruised my palm trying to hit it open every single round. I think I sold it for $175 or so just because it was one gorgeus rifle.

[cetme]

I think the refinish is moving along very well indeed! Have one on me when your done.:beer:

[XO3319]

Just finiahed with the Rottonstone and replaced the metal on the stock

I am waiting for the rear band to show up to get her back together

Then pics and range day will shortly follow:beer:

[XO3319]

Jfowl

a lot of people have sporterized milsurps-- especially after WWI and WWII.

What you did is no crime, especially if done well. But the rifle, as you know, now has no value to a collector. And that is OK with me too...it is a beautiful refurb and probably one hell of a deer rifle.

I love breathing new life into an old and abused rifle:sterb126:

[M1 Tanker]

ptrthgr8 that is one beautiful rifle and looks a lot like the one I sold.

[tomoshenko]

Jfowl

a lot of people have sporterized milsurps-- especially after WWI and WWII.

What you did is no crime, especially if done well. But the rifle, as you know, now has no value to a collector. And that is OK with me too...it is a beautiful refurb and probably one hell of a deer rifle.

I love breathing new life into an old and abused rifle:sterb126:
I have a few inexpensive "arsenal refinished" m44s and 91/30s that I love to shoot. The only "mods" have been totally reversible replaceable triggers from Huber concepts.
On the other hand I would like to find a nice acurate mauser too, but I want a sporterized version "deer gun" , not a original military so I guess my tastes here represent a market need contrary to those of the "original condition collector".

[jfowl31]

Ive done both... Ive done reversible mods, and then on this one... I said screw it, and figured its my on business if I do some irreversible stuff to the rifle. It really wasnt much of a collector before since it was mismatched, beech stocked, and REALLY beat up with hardly any blueing left.

Now, if I had come across as nicely grained walnut stocked K31 with perfect blueing, I would have had a harder decision, and probably just left the sights on and put it in the other stock, which is still reversible.

I will finish mine here in the next couple of months and post a new thread with a range report and everything.

What is this "Rottonstone" you speak of? Ive never heard of that.

[tomoshenko]

Ive done both... Ive done reversible mods, and then on this one... I said screw it, and figured its my on business if I do some irreversible stuff to the rifle. It really wasnt much of a collector before since it was mismatched, beech stocked, and REALLY beat up with hardly any blueing left.

Now, if I had come across as nicely grained walnut stocked K31 with perfect blueing, I would have had a harder decision, and probably just left the sights on and put it in the other stock, which is still reversible.

I will finish mine here in the next couple of months and post a new thread with a range report and everything.

What is this "Rottonstone" you speak of? Ive never heard of that.
JF,
I think he meant Rottenstone. It is fine pumice used in polish for wood, brass etc.

[jfowl31]

Is it justa polish with a bit of abrasive in it? Kinda like the face wash with pumice in it? or do you actually use a stone to rub the wood and finish?

[XO3319]

I used 4F Pumice in a vegatable oil slurry applied with cheesecloth

then Rottonstone in the same slurry to even out the finish. I gave it 3 applications of RS on the 6th, then 2 more on the 9th

I am pretty happy with the finish but less so about the filler. But it will still be a good shooter and it is much better condition than it was before

1 application of RS and 4F Pumice


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/6Apr07stockafterRottonstoneandPu-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/6Apr07stockafterRottonstoneandPumic.jpg

with the metal replaced on the stock after 1st app of RS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/6Apr07stockmetalreplaced1.jpg

Receiver back in stock after 2nd app of RS minus the handguard which is waiting for the arrival of the rear band

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/09Apr07stockmetalreplaceda.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/9Apr07completeminusHG.jpg

close ups
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/9Apr07completecloseupstockg.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/9Apr07completecloseupstockf.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/9Apr07completecloseupstocke.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/9Apr07completecloseupstockc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wray71/9Apr07completecloseupstockb.jpg

I'll post a before and after pic once the rear band arrives and I can get her back together

Then out to the range for some lead lunch

:g3:

[Grasshopper]

Wow, it looks like you'd want it in your room to look at. Pretty ol lady if you ask me.
I did some "customising" with a few of my rifles. (I know, when somebody bubbas a rifle, a kitten dies!) I took one of the mini romi mauser .22 cal trainers and poliurethaned it black with texture and threw a scope on it and I winter camoed my Romac kit. The bulgarian AK has the black poli on it also. :eck07: