Indian 7.62 Warning

[M1 Tanker]

Indian 7.62 Nato ammuniation has been known to cause many problems, to include destorying weapons. The headstamp OFV made in the 1990's and into the 2000's were imported after been swept up off the floor.

Here is a quote from Perro that he got from an industry insider.

the indian army found the ammo to be bad, so they turned all of it in, and it sat on the floor of a wearhouse (loose, not even in boxes)
all the years that were causing the indian army problems were turned in.
a US distrubutor bought the ammo, and when they found how many of them were UNSHOOTABLE, they complained, and the indian army sent them some more from other years to make up for the bad rounds (and this is where the 02 dated stuff came from)

More on the subject:

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=385

I'm still looking for the pictures we had on the old site.

There was a MG42, a 1919a4, a Cetme and a M14 that were destoryed by shooting Indian ammo.

943

944

945

946

947

[Blaster]

Here's a picture of some of the Indian crap (ammo?) that I culled out of the last batch. This stuff was dated 1998. Looks like the Indian Quality Control dude was out sleeping under the shade provided by his camel. Blaster (Bob in So. CO)

[Rampager]

Holy crap...doesn't surprise me though. It amazes me no ones been killed by this crap yet (that I know of).

[Teyvareb]

That damage ain't so bad, it'll buff out...

My question is who wouldn't check the rounds first? I mean, those things are seriously junk rounds.

[kevin]

everyone on surplusrifle.com says this stuff is ok, no one will believe otherwise. who had the pic of the double "rim" round like a week ago?

[okie shooter]

everyone on surplusrifle.com says this stuff is ok, no one will believe otherwise. who had the pic of the double "rim" round like a week ago?
Kevin, I think the problem is, (read perros poast on this http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=4376&postcount=13 )there were the two groups of indian brought in to the country, the bandolered stuff from the seventies, and the late ninties and newer in the bags/loose. The comments on the new stuff all point to problems in production at the factory, the earler stuff was excessed due to age.(boy and the cans I see of it say its been in and out to the field alot, they are weathered for sure). The guys on the fal board hope that the old indian kept its bad rep so they can buy it up. That said the last show I was at the only thing there in bulk surplus was bandolered seventies indian and I think it was twenty cents a round anyway.

[SteelCore]

I don;t kow why. I was telling a dealer in town here bout the indian ammo warnings, and he swore up and down it was great milsurp for his FAL...hey, whatever, man.

[Lon Moer]

:dsia: I can't believe I'm the first to post that!:533:


Here's a dealer warning about Indian ammo; DSA (http://dsarms.com/ammowarn.asp)

[Hoot]

I don't care who made it.

If it's military surplus or remanufactured and you do not closely inspect every round before putting it into your weapon, you get what you deserve. Plain and Simple.

If your time is worth more than the savings, buy commercial.

Here's my process. I usually do a minimum of 100 at a sit down:

1) Wipe all over with a towel lightly moistened with low odor mineral spirits.

2) Visually inspect using some kind of magnification. I use a B & L stereo 7-30x zoomed out to 7, with polarized light. If I see something out of the ordinary, I set it aside and afterwards re-examine zoomed in closer. A magnifying headband works okay also, followed by a 15x jeweler's loupe if needed for closer inspection. That's what I used before I stumbled upon the B & L at a flea market.

3) Check C.O.L.

4) Roll on a flat surface and observe concentricity.

5) If they make it this far, I weigh and sort them in 1 or 2 grain increments depending upon how wide the spread is. Anything way outside the group average is tossed in the resource recovery pile.

To date, I have shot only about 500-600 rounds of the ~2500 or so inspected, categorized and stored milsurp or remanufactured ammo I have. Of the 500-600, I have had:

zero failure to fire
zero failure to go into battery
zero case separation
one split neck right where the flute mark was (Lake City XM80 FWIW)
zero hang fire
zero squib
zero detectable hot charge
zero really wild fliers, though plenty not in the 10 ring ;)

Using my method. Of the ~2500 various caliber and brand milsurp and remanufactured ammo inspected, the most rejects I've encountered came from the 1986 Indian M80 with 18 absolute rejects out of a can of 640. Most suffered from concentricity issues, but three were, in my opinion, "accidents looking for a place to happen", though one of those would in all likelihood not have gone into battery anyway.

Though I have used Indian M80, I do not endorse or recommend using it. The people who are kind enough to provide us with this forum prefer it that way.

Hoot

[rustypirate]

The greatest danger with Indian ammo is the risk of a suib load. Suib loads are not something you can catch by visual inspection, and these are the ones that lead to destruction of your firearm and injury to the shooter.

While there is no gaurantee against underpowered rounds from any manufacturer, there have been unusually high number of ocurances of squibs fom Indian manufactured ammunition.

This is the reason for the warning against Indian ammo in all of it's various incarnations.

[Otis61]

So let me be clear on this. A squib load is a round that has no powder, or the powder fails to ignight so that when the primer is hit the bullet travels part way down the barrel and then gets stuck? There by causeing an explosion on the fireing of the next round?

[jlpskydive]

Yep, also called a "Pop no Kick" when I was in the Army.

[nalioth]

So let me be clear on this. A squib load is a round that has no powder, or the powder fails to ignight so that when the primer is hit the bullet travels part way down the barrel and then gets stuck? There by causeing an explosion on the fireing of the next round? Correct in the no powder ignition. A squib is propelled by the primer only. If using a bolt gun, you can usually "tell" something didn't go right (but not always) and in a semi automatic rifle, you usually fire the next round and screw your barrel up (at the least).

[Otis61]

That happened to me once with my mini-14 and some hand loads I got from this guy I did'nt know. Lucky for me my dad was right there and stoped me from pulling the triger again before it exploded.

[rustypirate]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A squib is a phenomenon in gunmanship in which a bullet that is fired does not have enough force behind it to clear the barrel, forcing the next round to ram into it when fired. Can be extremely dangerous, causing damage to the firearm as well as injury, or death, to the user.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib

[Hoot]

Squib prevention is the main reason I weigh my rounds as part of the inspection process. Never got one without a charge yet, but there's always a first time. If I couldn't tell the difference between just the primer and a charge in a centerfire round, regardless of semi auto or bolt action, I'd quit.

Hoot

[jlpskydive]

Note the alternate name of "Pop No Kick" :1087:

[97th Signalman]

Squib prevention is the main reason I weigh my rounds as part of the inspection process. Never got one without a charge yet, but there's always a first time. If I couldn't tell the difference between just the primer and a charge in a centerfire round, regardless of semi auto or bolt action, I'd quit.

Hoot

I got a squib round with Indian ammo (before I knew better) and it was full of powder. I could see it scattered all over the inside of the chamber and receiver after I unloaded the rifle. It just never ignited. I imagine it would have passed a weight test.

[jfowl31]

Ive never really been able to understand how guys shoot a second time after a squib in a semi-auto...

If the round doesn't have enough poop to get the bullet out of the barrel, it CERTAINLY shouldnt have enough to work the bolt enough to pick up a new round. ANY semi-auto shooter should be trained that if the bolt is not worked, the rifle should be cleared and checked before moving on... Squib or no, if the bolt didn't move, something wrong happened!

If some guy gets a bum round that sticks in the barrel, and reaches up to manually eject the case and pick up a new one and fires again without ever checking his rifle.... he deserves what he gets.

Being in battle and clearing a weapon without checking is one thing, but any "citizen" not under fire who doesn't check a rifle after a malfunction like that, is begging for a Darwin award.

btw, Im a huge contributor to the "Don't shoot Indian ammo" crowd. IMO, its not worth anything except demilling for components. And if I ever buy any, it will have the bullets pulled, the powder stock piled, and then reloaded... no matter what year. I dont want to be the first guineypig who figures out exactly what year or batch the stuff went bad!

[rustypirate]

Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between a squib and just another failure to eject.

Also because of the blockage, the gasses do not escape from the barrel and can build up enough pressure to cycle a bolt with sufficient force to cause ejection.

It still stands that if you suspect ANYTHING wrong, you should stop and inspect the rifle including the bore for problems before resuming firing, but I know for a fact that I have been guilty of just clearing the spent cartridge, and resuming action.

[remauto1100]

I had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago during the last day of shotgun deer season. I use Remington Copper Solid 12 sabot slugs religously and they perform extremely well in my Remington 11-87. 2 Hours before end of season I had a 8 point buck come barreling down a trail right to me. First shot I missed him and the second I was right on him and squeezed and the round just didnt sound right. (keep in mind a 12ga. deer slug load is louder than hell). well this one just wasn't quite loud enough. It did cycle the action and extracted and reloaded properly but I immediately stopped, dropped the gun down cleared the gun and pulled the barrel. And sure enough there was NO LIGHT coming from the end of the barrel. The slug was wedged half-way down the barrel! Deer season was over for me! I had to knock the slug through with a wooden dowel. All other shells from that batch worked fine. The bad shell had powder and I knew that because it was scattered all over the chamber and down the barrel unburnt! Don't know what happened there! I've shot 100's of slugs and probably 200 Copper Solids and have never had this happen.

[4 brigada]

I had problems with Indian surplus 147 gr, the first time I shot the stuff, was out on the shooting range and my buddy's 308 garand would short stroke on evey shot, so I ran 2 shots thru mine, (has the non venting BM59 plug) same thing. So when you get lemons you reload them. Pulled the bullets, replaced the powder with Varget they shoot great now. On a 308 thats about 50.000 cup inches from your face everytime you pull the trigger, all it takes is one time.

From a Bell Helmet 1970s ad " if you have a five dollar head, then buy yourself a 5 dollar helmet" Has made me think everyday since the day I saw that ad

[markw76]

If any of this was already posted, I missed it in the skim.

The Brits had QC on the Indian ammo until 1980, at which time the lowest common denominator took over and the QC tanked.

This has apparently been born-out by purchasers' feedback both of the shooting and visual quality of the rounds.

There is better, safer ammo out there to put through a $1000+ rifle.


Squibs: there is a school of thought that the destruction isn't so much a matter of two bullets colliding and a resulting pressure spike, but that the unburned powder caught between them detonates when compressed between the two. Makes sense to me. Sounds too much like what happens in a nuclear warhead to be safe, anyway.

[mrbgt]

here's another ....aaaa....review. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=37986

[okie shooter]

here's another ....aaaa....review. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=37986
Boy reading that review, I thought we were paranoid about the stuff, they are claiming its intentional, heck bad qc and other problems but I doubt the indians are making bad ammo just to ship here.

[Otis61]

A year or so ago, I bought some Indian, and shot about 20 or 30 rounds. I've always been kind of a dare devil, But this is rediculous. I was intending to eventualy shoot it, but now I don't know. I just said to myself " If I scrutinize every round really well, I'll be ok". WOW!

[XO3319]

strip it down and reload the components

Dump the powder

[Otis61]

strip it down and reload the components

Dump the powder

OK. Thanks.

[warriornfl1]

oh boy,,,now I AM SURE I shouldn't have bought that Indian ammo last week. I didn't know that there were problems with this stuff.. my local gun shop had an ammo can with 42 {10 packs} @ $1.50 a pack....CRAPOLA,,,,,, NOW WHAT DO I DO? guess I should have checked out the forum before I bought this....DAMN..:nonono:

[GearShanty]

oh boy,,,now I AM SURE I shouldn't have bought that Indian ammo last week. I didn't know that there were problems with this stuff.. my local gun shop had an ammo can with 42 {10 packs} @ $1.50 a pack....CRAPOLA,,,,,, NOW WHAT DO I DO? guess I should have checked out the forum before I bought this....DAMN..:nonono:

I've been looking for some components. PM sent. I am also just down the road from you.

Thanks,
Bill
bill@gearshanty.com

[okie shooter]

oh boy,,,now I AM SURE I shouldn't have bought that Indian ammo last week. I didn't know that there were problems with this stuff.. my local gun shop had an ammo can with 42 {10 packs} @ $1.50 a pack....CRAPOLA,,,,,, NOW WHAT DO I DO? guess I should have checked out the forum before I bought this....DAMN..:nonono:
I am guessing you got the ten packs, the stuff in the plastic bags, supposedly "culled good stuff"(ofv 90's stuff).The best thing might be to break down the rounds and reload with good measured powder. The only other thing might be to do some qc your self, pull some bullets and weight the components, see if they add up and then check all of the rounds, but you would have to be careful and I wouldnt even think about doing that my self.

[warriornfl1]

culled good stuff ...hummmmmm I don't know,,, my dealer said that he's shot this ammo out of a bolt action, and also linked for his machine gun with no probs at all...

[markw76]

Gas guns are more finicky. The only thing known for sure is anything after '80 is a crapshoot. I wouldn't even load the brass again! Too many things during the cup and draw steps can lead to a catastrophic failure of the worst kind. I wouldn't want to be the first.

[jfowl31]

Well, you most certainly wouldn't be the first Markw76...

I've personally examined a Polytec M1a that was chewed up and spat out by Indian ammo. There are PLENTY of other guys who've has KB's with 90's Indian. I wouldn't want to be ANY number in this list.

[M1 Tanker]

Apparently with the ammunition shortage currently, people are getting desperate, so lets go over a few key points.

-There is plenty of evidence of this ammo destroying weapons.
-This is stuff even the Indian Army believed unsafe and turned in.
-It's your life and firearm...don't be stupid.
-Don't believe a dealer. They bought 1000's of rounds of it, of course they will tell you anything to move it. I have over a 1000 rounds of it sitting here.

If, and thats a big if, I was going to fire what I had, it would only be in my 1919. Thats the only thing durable enough to stand up to the damage we have seen.

[Polock]

Don't want to start an argument--but a friend has one of the 49/56 rifles CAI converted to 7.62. Indian ammo headstamped "02" is the only stuff that will work in the rifle. He has fired several hundred rounds with no problem. I have used it in my M1 (7.62 re-do) and while not very accurate, functions OK. Not recommending it, just our experiences--

[nalioth]

Don't want to start an argument--but a friend has one of the 49/56 rifles CAI converted to 7.62. Indian ammo headstamped "02" is the only stuff that will work in the rifle. He has fired several hundred rounds with no problem. I have used it in my M1 (7.62 re-do) and while not very accurate, functions OK. Not recommending it, just our experiences-- .... but it only takes one kaboom, and you're blind, handless or dead.

[markw76]

Its entirely possible that the 80s was the decade from hell for whoever actually produced that stuff, and things got better afterwards. Bolt actions are less finicky than gas guns. If it isn't corroded, physically mangled, and it will fit the chamber, its probably fine in a bolt gun. As usual, beware of squibs. YMMV.

[Peacemaker]

No offense to anyone but the bolt guns usually hold together only a little longer than the autos with bad loads. Basically with Indian ammo you are playing Russian roulette. I have shot SA, Port, and Indian through a C91 and can testify that unless I am down to only the Indian and the zombies are eating their way through the door will
I fire it again.

[M1 Tanker]

Its entirely possible that the 80s was the decade from hell for whoever actually produced that stuff, and things got better afterwards. Bolt actions are less finicky than gas guns. If it isn't corroded, physically mangled, and it will fit the chamber, its probably fine in a bolt gun. As usual, beware of squibs. YMMV.


Lets remember the problems have come from the 1990's and later Indian.

[okie shooter]

Also remember there is a quote some where, that the indians knew there were problems thats why there was more indian released to the wholesalers, to make up for the problems with the earler stuff.

Posting this link again for those who have mised it.

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=4376&postcount=13

[Grasshopper]

http://www.testfakta.se/Article.aspx?a=16350

This is a good explanation what Indian ammo can do or any squib. Watch this carefully.

[Deadheadmatt]

Hey Grasshopper,

Can you tell me where to look on that page? My swedish isn't so good.

Matt

[Grasshopper]

Ok, this is just movies of squibs. I believe (from a dude named Sweed at the RCG forums) that they stuffed a round 4" down the barrel and loaded a live one in and pulled the trigger. I don't know what ammo was used but this is a great example of how the Indian stuff can take your hand off.:eek:

[weasel_master]

7439

[nowhereman]

7439

The old church generator, a classic....

[animator]

Even inspecting the rounds before loading isn't always going to guarantee you're safe.

A few years ago, I was out shooting my CETME with Indian ammo, and had a squib round cook off in the chamber. The bullet had traveled down the barrel just far enough to unseat from the shell, but not quite far enough to allow the next round to fully chamber. The bolt would close, but wasn't far enough to allow the hammer to drop onto the firing pin. It was only 1 or 2 mm shy of fully locking. A steel cleaning rod was used to force the bullet out of the barrel.

If the next round had chambered and fired, my rifle would have exploded. That was scary. And after that experience, I do not shoot Indian ammo out of any rifle I own.

[Old Jimmy]

Boy Grasshopper, that video dont make american rifles look too good does it??

[rifleman]

yeah it makes me nervous with my 710

[wanno]

I remember this warning coming out on the old web site.
Did a check of my ammo, its been awhile since I bought it. I've got several boxes of 7.62 X 51, which I bought three years ago. when I bought it I think I was told it was Portugese. The ammo has a seal over the box that says Fabrica de Palencia. Can any one tell me if it is Portugese or not, and if not where is it from?

thanks

[97th Signalman]

The greatest danger with Indian ammo is the risk of a suib load. Suib loads are not something you can catch by visual inspection, and these are the ones that lead to destruction of your firearm and injury to the shooter.

While there is no gaurantee against underpowered rounds from any manufacturer, there have been unusually high number of ocurances of squibs fom Indian manufactured ammunition.

This is the reason for the warning against Indian ammo in all of it's various incarnations.


That's what I experienced ... a squib load (before I ever found the old cetmerifle forum). I encountered the squib load after culling out all the obvious junk . Fortunately mine only went about 1/2 an inch up the barrel so the next round would not chamber. That was the last time that I ever fired any Indian ammo, ever! I took the remaining ammo back to the range shop where I had purchased it and gave it back to them. I told them what was dangerous about that ammo but they continued to sell it in their shop until it was all gone. Maybe they were FAL guys.

[SteelCore]

That is Santa Barbara, made in Palencia, Spain.

Just don't shoot stuff with the OFV headstamp...that's Indian.

[Grasshopper]

heres an other picture of the Indian OFV stuff

[fal_762x51]

That's not Indian...

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/calegal/c4cd.jpg

...this is a common Indian round (still displayed on my desk for the reminder, check your ammo before shooting.)

[hulygan]

just an extra warning for those that go to the WAC gunshows here in washington. The surplusammo.com guy that always has a booth has started to sell bagged indian ammo with headstamps in the 80s and 90s

[robocop10mm]

Double rim. Cool. Positive extraction with a back up extractor rim.

I was given some assorted ammo and found less than 10 OFV rounds. got out the trusty collet bullet puller, dismantled the rounds, replaced the primer w/new, loaded with w-748 and re-seated the bullets. Should be good to go, no? I considered leaving the primers intact but I would not have any way of knowing later if these rounds had the powder replaced. Now with Nickel plate primers in place they are readily identifable as corrected.

[SeanOfTheDead]

I got some of this stuff date 74,75,76, and 78... I have had it for years I bought it wicked cheap back in the late 90s. As you can tell by the fact that I still have it 10+ years on I dont get out to shoot much "Rifle Wise" But know Im thinking I might not shoot the stuff ever!

[97th Signalman]

I got some of this stuff date 74,75,76, and 78... I have had it for years I bought it wicked cheap back in the late 90s. As you can tell by the fact that I still have it 10+ years on I dont get out to shoot much "Rifle Wise" But know Im thinking I might not shoot the stuff ever!

If you have a .308 bolt gun you can shoot it in that as you will have time to notice a squib load before you operate the bolt to chamber the next round. It's still junk but in a bolt gun it becomes more inconvenient than dangerous. Otherwise, pull the bullets and use the powder for fertilizer.

I took my Indian ammo back to the seller and asked them to dispose of it. I think they probably resold it.

[thebufenator]

I rescently got 200 rounds of Indian ammo headstamped KF 74.

I am assuming since this isn't OFV, it is fine to shoot?

[rustypirate]

You do so at your own risk.

I can honestly say that the majority of the reports of bad ammo are from the late 80's/early 90's but I would personally stay away from all of it.

[wwIIBuff]

All I shoot through in my Hk 91 is Indian ammo.......Just kidding

[Noskov]

I thought this article on the Polytech M14 was a bit one-sided since the guy used Indian ammo (didn't say the date) to do his accuracy results...

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/polytech_m14_rifle.htm

[M1 Tanker]

Bump

[Airmedic6]

Thanks for the warning! Information is just that it informs and the receiver can decide to heed or not-

[echo1]

Just hooked up with you guys at this forum. As per my usual procedure, I cruise through the stickys of the various topics. I almost never look in the ammo threads because I don't reload (yet). I was caught totally off guard by the Indian ammo warning. Didn't know of, and hadn't heard about the catastophic failures. I've got 800rds bandolered on strippers, all with a head stamp "OFV 74 7.62 M80" the QC tag in both the ammo boxes says "L566.B". None of this Lot has been shot. I HAD another 500rds in plastic bags labeled "7.62 NATO M80 MADE IN INDIA" with a head stamp "KF 91 7.62B". 250rds I put through a SAR8, 50rds through a Spanish Mauser. It shot very good in both weapons. I bought the ammo about 5 years ago, and it was the last of the NATO bulk that an FFL had left. I vaguely remember him saying that there had been some issues with Indian ammo, but the bad stuff was gone. Now I just feel lucky, but I know that the FFL would have called me, if other guys he had sold to, experienced any problems. We've done business in the past. Looks like it's going to be used for emergency zombie attack only.

[FiremanFrank]

Good post and now I understand why not to use any Indian ammo. Heck, my bolt action .308s were quite expensive so I wouldn't want to take a chance on using this dangerous ammo in them either. I'll stick to other surplus for certain.