Russia puts tanks and missiles back in Red Square parade

[Woodman in MO]

I gotta say I put this on my list of things to someday see.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/russia_victory_day

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080509/capt.2ba813b9e3d843ada3a3f4a5f38cf7ed.aptopix_russ ia_victory_day_mosb111.jpg?x=400&y=292&sig=XIkF3gLVf6Ezl.20m2yLpw--

MOSCOW - Russia showcased its military might and youthful new president to the world Friday, as heavy tanks and missile launchers rumbled across Red Square in a Victory Day parade for the first time since the Soviet era.

In a nationally broadcast speech two days after his inauguration, President Dmitry Medvedev avoided the bellicose rhetoric of his mentor and predecessor, Vladimir Putin, who drew parallels between United States and Nazi Germany during last year's parade.

However, in his speech marking victory over Adolf Hitler's Germany, the 42-year-old Medvedev said the history of World War II demonstrated that military conflicts are rooted in "irresponsible ambitions which prevail over interests of nations and entire continents."

"We must not allow contempt for the norms of international law," he said, in what sounded like veiled criticism of the United States and its Western allies.

The Kremlin has consistently criticized both the U.S.-led war in Iraq and wide Western recognition of Kosovo's declaration of independence from Russia-allied Serbia as flagrant violations of international legal norms.

A stern-faced Putin, who was named prime minister Thursday, hovered at Medvedev's shoulder on the podium hiding the mausoleum of Soviet founder Vladimir Lenin. His face was prominently shown in TV broadcasts — an image that played to the wide belief the former president will continue calling the shots.

Medvedev, his country's third post-Soviet president, hailed the rebuilding Russian military, saying it can "give a reliable protection to the motherland."

"Our army and navy are getting stronger. Just as Russia itself, they are gaining strength," he said.

More than 100 combat vehicles, including intercontinental ballistic missile launchers, rolled across the cobblestone Red Square and strategic bombers and fighter jets roared overhead in the first such display in 18 years.

Medvedev smiled frequently as he watched the parade, which the communist rulers of the Soviet Union made into an annual exercise in saber-rattling directed at the West.

Russia's military spending increased eightfold to an annual $40 billion during Putin's eight-year tenure thanks to the nation's oil bonanza. Analysts, however, say the military suffers the same problems that dented its capabilities and prestige since the Soviet collapse.

Widespread bullying of young conscripts by older soldiers has made the draft extremely unpopular, and rampant corruption and mismanagement plague the military. Despite repeated pledges by Putin to modernize the armed forces, Russia has purchased only a handful of new combat jets and several dozen tanks.

Most of the combat vehicles shown in Friday's parade were slightly modernized versions of Soviet weapons designed in the 1980s.

"As the Soviet Union in the past, Russia wants to demonstrate its might to potential enemies," military analyst Alexander Golts wrote in the online Yezhednevny Zhurnal. "But the West clearly understands the true picture behind the talk of 'rising potential.'"

Modern communications and control systems remain scarce, and a Russian equivalent to the U.S. satellite navigation system has failed to come on line as scheduled this year amid equipment shortages. Basics like night goggles, portable radios and satellite phones are rarities.

Russia's navy is in particularly poor shape. Soviet-built nuclear submarines frequently need repairs and rarely leave their bases. The first in a series of new nuclear submarines, the Yuri Dolgoruky, is to be commissioned this year, but the Bulava nuclear-armed missile developed to equip it has failed tests and its deployment prospects are uncertain.

[MicroPilot]

That would be awesome.

I read a story about a US doctor who was visiting Russia who got 3 years in prison for having hunting ammo in his suitcase.

[Schultz]

I think we're gonna have problems out of Russia now that Putin has a puppet in the form of Medvedev.

[Norton]

I read a story about a US doctor who was visiting Russia who got 3 years in prison for having hunting ammo in his suitcase.

Yes he brought his Russian friend who hunts one box of hard to find 300. Winchester Magnum. Now it was an honest mistake as his friend in Russia leagally owns the 300. The irony is it easier to own a hunting firearm in Russia than some other Western nations.
But for some reason they threw the book at this guy, you would think they would fine him some rubels and send him home.
Was there more to this case than just one box of cartriges

[ctdemolay0405]

one of my good friends' dad was in moscow the other day and saw the parade (His dad is the CEO of Carl Fisher Music, one of the largest sheet music publishers)

[KMURPHY]

ahhh....finally, all is once again right in the world

[Norton]

ahhh....finally, all is once again right in the world

Now that's what I mean.. I want to see that new MIG, New long range bomber, New T 98 Tank or even that new moblile ICBM SS what ever number the CIA gives it..

[okie shooter]

I think everyone forgets that can the Russians afford to keep up in the arms race these days(they are selling their expensive carriers to give up on a extensive surface blue water navy, and even slowing down their sub deployments, leaving their boomers in port much of the time now due to costs of operation), they are the poor kid on the block, with one hell of a huge but ageing nuclear stick though.

The parade is for pride over victory over the Germans in WWII more than anything, thus the tanks give the people something of a feel good, though it will be bad when the generation that fought that war, like the one here passes away, thus the memories of the destruction and utter futility of war will be lost.

"War is merely a continuation of politics," Clausewitz's fueled the century and a half of Prussian/German agressions against mainly the French and Russians. Hopefully the doctern he expounded on that will not be repeted.

[brewskzilla]

Yeah... The Russians are so much cooler with balls. Their stuff is really pretty, too. The old European mixture of beauty and functionality. Brings back such memories as Maximillian breastplates, the Red Coat uniform, Gothic Horse armor, the bronze dragon mouthed cannons of the 1500s... Leave it up to THEM to make war look more romantic.

[iocane]

Sometimes there is a arms race and a big war happens, like World War One.
Then sometimes there isn't one and a even bigger war happens. Germany and Japan didn't stand a chance in a arms race post World War One. Yet they were allowed to build massive armies with barely a shrug from their potential victims.
The old Russian generation being lost that remebered how bad wars could be is a problem. For all the troubles caused by old USSR, they weren't to eager for big wars. Before World War Two they were in a lot of wars, lost many, won a few. They took huge gambles. After World War Two they were no longer a second rate power, they could have fought World War Three. Instead they just supported rebellions around the world causing much misery but they didn't plunge the world into flames.

[okie shooter]

IMHO, I really think the Soviets/Russians fear Western agressions far more than we all like to feel. Its always good to make the precieved enemy off as the agressor, but history shows, for two hundred years the Russians have been invaded by western powers not the other way around(yes everyone thinks during WWII they invaded to the west, but heck they had to chase the Nazis out).

[nowhereman]

Another example of Russia being led back to the good ole days... Putin is kind of like a mobster. Gives you a little security and some soup and bread, then he's the man. He doesn't really have as many states to rape as before but Russia still has massive potential. I wonder what all that coordinating military exercises with the Chinese was all about? I got an idea... Putin still runs the country and fits the definition of a dictator. The other guy "just a puppet."

[Woodman in MO]

for two hundred years the Russians have been invaded by western powers not the other way around

With the exception of Finland...

[Norton]

IMHO, I really think the Soviets/Russians fear Western agressions far more than we all like to feel. Its always good to make the precieved enemy off as the agressor, but history shows, for two hundred years the Russians have been invaded by western powers not the other way around(yes everyone thinks during WWII they invaded to the west, but heck they had to chase the Nazis out).

They Invaded Poland along with the Nazis in 1939.. That was not to chase the Nazis out but to get her share of the loot.
She invaded Eastonia, Lativia and Lithuania in 1940 and Murdered around 1/4th of their populations by either killing them outright or working them to death in Siberia. As noted they invaded Finland and would have done the same to their population.
German Panzers ran on Russian petrol in France, German boots that marched in Holland were made with Russian leather.
The bombs and that fell on London were made with Russian Gun Cotton.
German tanks trained in Russia, German gound attack planes trained in Russia and Russian propaganda assisted the Nazis in the Battle of France.

It was Russia that fed the German war machine.
I could go on with more but you get the picture

In fact Germany and Russia were allies until Hitler double Crossed our Boy Stalin.

[KMURPHY]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^thank you

[nowhereman]

Russian American WWII victory = Thanks America "snicker" now F off...

[okie shooter]

With the exception of Finland...

Finland was part of Russia untill the First World War, thus were they really going after a western power.

[iocane]

Pre-World War One Russia invaded Poland with Prussia (Poland was far bigger then) and conquered it. Later in World War One USSR surrenders Poland to Germany (Prussia). Western allies defeat Germany and grants Poland freedom. USSR then invades Poland a few times and is beaten back till 1939 when Germany joins in again resulting in Poland being crushed. Russia just doesn't come out as the nice guy. Pretty much a similar situation with all its neighbors in eastern Europe. Russia isn't some little country thats been kicked around, its one of the major powers. It kicks around the smaller powers. It grew by conquest till it reached countries that could hold it back or it reached countries that had powerful allies. The old empires of Europe mostly grew by over sea conquest. Which later made it hard to unite into one country so the empires broke up. Russia is a old style European empire like the old French and British Empires of long ago, with the difference is the Russians conquered by land. So people even though people may rebel all the time to restart some old nationality, there still staying part of Russia. Russia just lost some minor players with the breakup of the USSR, Russia held most of the old USSR land and people. Even if a lot of them are not Russian.

[sdk1968]

they arent all the way back YET>>>

but the russian economy is turning around and they are making a come back... it wont be long..

all the real power will be in china and russia.

[Planning]

"cie la vie":rolleyes:

"THAT'S LIFE" :rolleyes:

[okie shooter]

Heck in the mid nintheenth century, one of a nation, was taken in a war, of expansion of the agressive power bent on nationalistic expansion after already annexing a former provenance of that country that had declared independance then forced by the victor to give up half of its remaining territory in the lust for imperial expansion. Hmmm why does this sound like russia, but is the United States in the 1840's against Mexico. If you think Russia is brutal so is your own nation in its past history too. The nations of the world have been historically expanionistic. The Japanese were doing the same thing in its efforts during WWII in its attempt to create the Co East Asian Prosparity Sphere too.

The French, once in 1812, then with the British and Oottomans in the 1850's(who do you think were the opposition forces against the Light Brigade from during the invasion of the crimanian by the west) and at the same time the British invadeing Russia thru Finland(at the time part of Russia since 1809, before that part of the Swedish empire, until the first world war it was a Dutchy with in the Russian empire), and then the first and second world wars, the latter being the far more serious with a third of the nation taken.

The thing would be like almost one third of the US taken, imagine from the nation east of St Louis taken by Canada or Mexico in a war, what would be our response after tossing the power out. Would you want to kiss them on the cheek or would you be slightly defensive, remember 20+ million died, heck there was an entire generation of single and widowed women(dont bost about stalin at this point, I am just talking about the German inflicted deaths , even thur mis-mannagement they still died at the hands of the Germans on defending their nation on their own soil, if you say Stalin was responsable, you have to say that Roosevelt was responsable for the mismannagement of US troops too) How many US solders would have been willing to die if anyone invades here ever again.

Thus the Russians, and the Soviets did what they could to give them defense against what they preceived as a threat(and we did the same to counter them too). The issue is now that Nato is on the borders of Russia, that woudl be like if the Soviets had won the cold war, that Canada joined the Warsaw pact. I am not saying that the Russians are right in their fears, just they have them, the Russians and Soviets have been Imperalistic in the past, but to counter so were the western powers too, how many knew that the French and British invaded Russia in the 1850's.

As I said the use of war to further nationalist gains is not a good. War is a wasteful act, which forces the cream of a nation to either take life or lose theirs. This is on both sides, no matter who is the agressor. Some times nations are forced to resort to it, due to the agressive acts of others, but no nation goes to war gleefully, just ask the mothers of the dead. There were far more dead in the Soviet Union by twenty fold than there were here during the war(just military death, and again to say Stalin was to blame remember they were fighting on home soils, and remember the Germans lost over five million military the majority I imagine in the fights with the Soviets, thus two large armies ate each other up). As Patton said "War is Hell"(I know this personally, my father will not tell me stories of his "War" still, no matter how proud he was to serve his nation) but those who survive must live thru that and have a huge desire for havingto live thur it or their children either, again, especally on their own soils.

[Norton]

Okie I agree with your basic historical pretense. What I have a problem with is the Soviet Communist propaganda line used from from 1939 on.. That is they were to get a pass on their agressive behaviour, and the millions of people they had liquidated because they had been "invaded'' so many times.
We heard this from western liberals and the Kremlin to excuse everything they did from invading Poland in 1939 to Afganistan in 1979. Russia had been invaded and invaded other nations at about the same ratio as other European powers. In other word she is about par for the course for a nation of her size.
As for heavy losses.. we all have taken heavy losses Britan, France, Germany, Japan , China and the USA.
The American Civil was as desvstating to us in relation to our population 1861/65 as Russia's war from 1941 /45.
I mean how many people were lost in 8 hours at Sharpsburg? They all had wives, mothers, family too. Our cities were burnt to the ground, our people starved too.
The US, Britian, France, Japan, China do not bring up the excuse of we had a hard time in a war, we were invaded!
When they do what they feel is in their interest.
They make up other excuses

[brewskzilla]

What's to argue? All great civilizations have gone conquesting at one time or another. Usually in the infancy of their existance. The Assyrians, the Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Ottomans, French, English, Russians, Germans, Spanish, AND the United States. Some took longer than others. England started conquesting France and Scotland in the late 1200s, about 200 years after Hastings. I use Hastings, as it was the most important historical moment in the development of Great Britain as it exists today. Rome conquested throughout it's existance, only stopping when they, themselves, came under attack. Carthage, had they gotten their way, would have conquered Western Europe, as well as all of North Africa, but the Romans got stronger, faster.

Only in the past two hundred years or so do we fault the great nations of the world for conquesting. It's almost as though when the gun became the primary battle weapon, it became taboo for one country to expand itself, against the wishes of the country it expanded into. That used to be part of life. If you were strong enough, you did what you pleased. If your neighbors wanted to stop you, they banded together and fought you. Now, it seems, the media storms over a nation acting in it's own self-interest get everyone else up in arms, so that the whole world comes against someone for invading a country that nobody liked in the first place.

The world grew up, but the people that live here didn't. Those that did get on everyone else's nerves trying to "educate" us about the evils of human nature.

Dammit, I need a beer and to go shoot something.

[iocane]

There is a difference between a reason for something and a excuse for something. For example Hitler and his perpetual going on and on about how abused Germany was. Germany was allowed to rebild their army and ignore the whole 100,000 troop limit. Then Germany was allowed to walk all over Austria and Czechoslovakia. Still there were plenty saying Germany was hurt and just getting back, then Hitler tried to take over the planet.

USSR, same problem, they were sending weapons to communist guerrilla
movements just about anywhere they could. They had half of Europe under their boot. They openly stated the whole world was going to be made communist and any other belief was to be crushed. That is not fear driving them, they were greedy, wanting it all. If they had gotten nukes first the whole world would of had to learn Russian.
The USSR wasn't defeated, no army conquered the USSR. Its own leaders just decided to remake things. Yes the Russian army is much smaller then the old USSR army. The current American army and Nato army is a lot smaller then it was in the 1980's. The whole expansion of Nato isn't a expansion of military might, its just a bunch of treaties. Not much effort to be prepared if anyone calls us on those treaties. Yes, Russians can talk more freely then they used to, still people can have a unfortunate demise their for being on the wrong side of their leaders. While here in America we are more communistic, heck we may have a communist president soon.
I had a Russian coworker who was proud of her son, one day she was all happy that he had gotten his picture in the paper. Well I wanted to see it. Sure enough there he was, the article was about a big fight at the local school, ike a mini riot. There was her son slugging some other kid, look like a pretty good hit. She was so proud. Well it did look like a good hit.