W&H 45-70 (by request)

[wonderwolf]

This rifle generated some interest in another thread and was requested I post more information about it over here.

This is my Buffalo classic 45-70 made by H&R but stamped W&H (Wesson & Harrington) Model 1871. This particular rifle I obtained for $285 from a guy who got it off a old SASS shooter who's alias I guess was "dune". I left the leather work on since it was nicely done...and the wood around it was faded so it looked odd if I removed it. It was fitted with a pseudo tang sight that works but it doesn't really fit the bill completely for the purpose of target shooting. I plan on moving it up and mounting it with a different base.

These rifles are made in 45-70,38-55 and just here recently they introduced a 45 long colt target model which might be fun but I don't think it has nearly the range and this beast.

I've only shot my hand loads through this. I got 100 pcs of brass from a auction for $.75 ....yep only 3/4 of a dollar..the catch was that they were necked down to 40/60. So I shot the 50 that were loaded to blow them out and it worked very well however I got a lot of leading but no ill effect otherwise after the gun was cleaned. To the other 50 cases I loaded up with 41 mag cast bullets and shot those out with a case full of FFG cheap black powder. I only split 4 cases out of the bunch. I annealed the left over cases and have been loading 405gr cast bullets in them with 45gr of cheap black powder and some "triple seven" that I got for cheap. I've only shot it @ 200 yards but it stays on target when its not to dark to see through the sight. I may try some shorter sights and keep the long range tang for when I go to a 1000 yard range. enjoy!!!

[omerta123]

not a sharps but whats up quigly, god that rifle reminds me of the first gun ive every owned a new england pardner, i swear hah

[cimmaronkid]

Wonderwolf's rifle is an extremely close copy of the rifle Frank Wesson built around the 1870's. The original was a tip up just like this one with the difference being that the originals had an under lever to open the breech while this one uses a lever in the top of the receiver. Unfortunately for a lot of us, the rule nazis that control BPCR say that this is NOT a close enough copy to qualify for use. Again, another case of not trying to bring new shooters into a sport unless you spend big $$$ and purchase a rifle that costs 3-4x as much and won't outshoot this gun. I have one and love it as well, but it is not decked out as well as Wonderwolf's rifle. With a 1:20 twist, it will stabalize up to a 500 gr. bullet quite well. Well enough that I would not want someone to shoot at me with one at 500 yds even with iron sights.

As with any firearm, it has been around for a few years but is just now really catching on with shooters and informal competitions as the cost is not expensive (see what a Shiloh Sharps will set you back), they are extremely accurate, and any competition with them has a level playing field as everyone is basically shooting the same gun. Highly recomended for those of you that like the smell of BP. Now where's that damn buffalo?

[wonderwolf]

I kicked myself for a few weeks after I saw a 2 target sharps for 45-70 and 45-120 with the really nice sights and everything go for under $1000 each. I called the store after I scrapped enough money together but they sold both of them the previous week.

I know what you mean with the BRCR/BRBP guys...We have them at our club. Only 4 or 5 guys in each match and they are hard core and wont let anybody else shoot unless you conform has to be breach seated no Gas checks and bunch of other stuff...and its not even a sanctioned match.

[cimmaronkid]

For those that have never tried it, shooting gongs or steel silhouettes with these rifles is about as much fun as you can have. Just something about touching off the shot and calling it before you hear the sound of the hit.

I am going to get a little off topic here, but I always thought that, especially now, we need to bring every new shooter into a gun owner position that we can and this is an easy way to do it by having a competition that is not based on an equipment race. They need to set up a special class for this rifle and watch what happens to the numbers of BP cartridge shooters. This truly levels the playing field and decides who is the best shooter and not who has the biggest and deepest pocket book. Even give the shooter a choice of three front and three rear sights and call it good.

I have quit shooting competitive Trap, Skeet, Benchrest, and IPSC during my life because of either rule changes that made the game easier to break 100 straight or turned strictly into an equipment race. Even in BPCR, the people that own the C.Sharps and Shiloh rifles look down their noses at those of us that shoot the replicas.

Maybe their egos can't take the beating that they might get by a rifle and a set of sights that cost less than the sights they use on their expensive guns.

[Norton]

I like the rifle, it looks like a very clean old fashioned hunting rifle (Not the leather cover). I could see a whole range of hunting that rifle would fit the bill for. Is the tang site visable in somewhat low light i.e dawn and dusk?
If you took that to the woods here, people would asume right off the bat you could shoot.

[wonderwolf]

I've thought about making the peep a little bigger. You have to have good light in order to use it. In low light I would use a guide style sight. I ripped the leather pocket off the side cause I really didn't like it so now there is just nice leather work showing. and no tacky buttons. The front globe sight on it might be changed down the road to a lower square blade cause I can shoot better with one and I'll get more range out of it. I need to do some math and chrono'd accuracy loads at 100 to figure out just how far I can shoot with the sight that is on it now.

[cimmaronkid]

Having spent a lot of time behind a vernier sight lately, here are a couple of suggestions, especially for those of us with aging eyes and/or corrective lenses. (I fit the first catagory).:party0045:

You can get a "Hadley" type of disc that has various size openings that you can change like you would the iris on a camera. I wouldn't shoot without one as it allows you to change openings for changing light conditions.

You can take your drill bits and BY HAND POWER ONLY, start making the hole larger a little at a time until the "spider webs" disappear when you look through the hole. Stop enlarging the hole at that point.

Brownell's offer various discs with different size holes but they are really $$$.

As far as the front sight goes, look on Evil-bay for a Lyman 17 globe or a globe that takes inserts. I believe that the front dovetail is 3/8" at the muzzle, but measure to be sure. You will be shocked at how much better you will shoot because of the inserts. And the nice thing here is the price as these globes are fairly inexpensive. Also, the blade won't give you what you are looking for to shoot at the longer ranges, or at least it doesn,t me.

Problem with these guns is that they are like potatoe chips, you can't have just one. Here is my favorite 45-70 that I have been playing with lately.

Shoot a picture of the vernier sight up close and I will be able to give you some rough settings that will get you on paper at various ranges, and you can dial it in from there. I especially need to see how it is graduated on the side.

[wonderwolf]

There's a lyman globe on the rifle already but I only have the one insert that came with the gun. I'm used to shooting long range with my AR-15 with a square front sight and I think a open blade would help on this. Though if it dosn't I can always replace it. The vernier on this one isn't a high quality one like on that sharps. Its about a $70 rear sight I'm guessing if that. Once you have it set for one range its hard to keep windage right when you move it to the next.

[cimmaronkid]

Gotta remember that the windage is just for target work and most of the old rigs never had a windage adjustment and if it did, it was small as these men knew how to read conditions. The other thing to take into consideration is the fact that the bullet is only coming out at around 1300 fps or less. If you have the Lyman cast bullet book, they have charts in back that will give you drift for various velocities and distances. My first sight was much like yours but just didn't have enough windage for the really long range stuff so I got a cheap Pedersoli off of e-bay and love it as it is the long range sight that has enough elevation for around 1500+ yds. Of course, when you begin to shoot that far, your head is way off the stock!

I mounted my TriStar vernier on my H&R along with a Lyman 17 and have been playing a lot with it as well, and actually think I shoot it better. I have the butt stock off right now and am going to make a straighter stock with a Monte Carlo roll over with cheekpiece for "outlaw" matches so I have more height to keep a better cheek weld. This sight is a pretty true copy of what the actually used and not the "soule" style you see on the sharps.

I know that there are a lot of guys on the forum that have read this and are laughing at us, but until you get behind one of these guns, you won't really know what fun is when you can shoot at a gong at 800 yds, touch off the trigger and call the shot before the bullet ever hits! Slow, yes. But remember that you are shooting an ounce or more of lead in that slug and 20 loaded rounds weighs well over 2 lbs.

[wonderwolf]

Some day I'll get a nice target sharps like what you got. though I never warmed up to the big side hammer on my dads carbine but I'll get used to it on the target model. Dunno if I would want 45-70 or not for the target gun.

[cimmaronkid]

Recommend the 45-70 first as it is cheaper to get components for as well as molds. I shoot a 480 gr cast over a 65 grain of Swiss 1 1/2g powder and there is no recoil to speak of. I am going to experiment with a LIGHTER bullet of about 420-430 from Lyman that was the carbine bullet as it will even lighten the recoil even more and will give more velocity and a flatter trajectory with plenty of power to topple rams at 500 yds.

Next one will be something like a 40-65 or 40-70 Sharps straight so that I can make brass from either 405 Winchester or 45-70 brass. Some of these weird old cartridges cost about $1 each and I can't see the benefit of them.

I appreciate the comment on the Sharps, but it is just a TriStar replica that I picked up for about $600 and then added the soule sights and globe. Gun will shoot as well as any Pedersoli or big $$ Shiloh or C. Sharps rifle as long as the cast bullet is the right size as the Italian guns run a little large in the bore. Biggest thing is the sights, but the used Pedersoli I have on it works well enough for me, so all total, I have just a little over $700 in this gun. I am beginning to get my load down and starting to really shrink groups.

Gotta remember though, when it gets right down to it, the guy behind the trigger and his ability are what count most.