S.A. Ammo on CNN. (Illegally sold???)

[LorDiego]

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (Reuters) -- South Africa's state arms agency Armscor sold hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition into the open market in conflict with government policy, Business Day newspaper said on Wednesday.

The newspaper said a secret forensic report in 2005 showed Armscor had sold ammunition for AK-47, R-4 and R-5 rifles to Industrie Spreewerk Lubben in Germany "ostensibly for destruction and onward sale to companies in the U.S.".

"(This) has seen the U.S. market flooded with military and police surplus ammunition from South Africa. Apparently the ammunition is openly advertised on the Internet," the newspaper said, citing a copy of the report.

Armscor was not immediately available for comment.

The agency, formed as part of the secretive military apparatus of apartheid-ruled South Africa, vowed to become more transparent with the advent of multi-racial democracy in 1994.

Business Day said the ammunition sales could damage South Africa's reputation as a leader of global efforts to crack down on small arms proliferation.

"The report contains a litany of allegations over Armscor officials exporting ammunition on the basis of expired end-user certificates for Guyana," it said, adding that it also showed Armscor officials bypassing South Africa's National Conventional Arms Control Committee.

The newspaper said the November 2005 report by First Consulting also detailed a breach of national security in the export of Ratel infantry assault vehicles with top-secret codes and algorithms in place.

It said in all, there were eight exports of ammunition to Germany between 1998-2005 in contravention of a cabinet decision in 1997 that all surplus ammunition should be destroyed.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/04/04/safrica.arms.reut/index.html

[pjm204]

So when are they shipping more .308 over here?

[MID]

See they should get rid of the middle man, and all countries should ship there surplus to the USa. Where its pretty much a guarentee that the ammo/ arms will be used for none other then shreading paper.

[okie shooter]

I think you guys are missing the point, this will effectivally stop any selling of southafrician ammo on the market for reuse. If you read the article the goverments intent is to make sure the stuff is destroyed, not allowed any chance to reenter the arms markets of the world.

From the above article


Armscor had sold ammunition for AK-47, R-4 and R-5 rifles to Industrie Spreewerk Lubben in Germany "ostensibly for destruction and onward sale to companies in the U.S.".


This is simular to the policies of the US armed services, when you dispose of munition items there has to be certian steps taken to demil the item, I have designed equipment to do this, it involves deforming parts of the metal parts, or total destruction of parts. It allows resale of components but not for their orginal use, when it leave the army's possession.

[pjm204]

yea but how well does that government get thing done?

[M1 Tanker]

The end of the South Africian :( That sucks.

[okie shooter]

Chris, and everyone, I guess we miss the point because there are not tribal or civilwars fought in canada, here and Mexico everyday, the closest we get is movements some what in mexico and central america. The South Africans are trying to prevent the spread of mass small arms and ammunition from getting to these conflicts in their own part of the world(look at whats up in Zimbawe, the source of ak ammo for a while too), and one way to do that is ensure that they destroy all of their old excess, ammunition rather than sell it for reuse(which is by far the cheapest and easiest way to do it) If they could ensure that none of the ammo ever made it back to the these small conflicts, they might but there are problems.

Remember at one time the largest supplier of guns and ammunition to the IRA was proably the Irish population actually leagly buying guns and ammo here and smuggleing it to Northern Ireland. Estremest movements involveing violance and firearms aren't restricted to the middle east and muslims, they come in all religions and colors. Remember before the devision of Palestine, most of the folks that became the goverment and military of Isreal were terrorists against the British, that were there just to settle the issue for the UN(after they took over from the league of nations, and allied powers of the First World War).

It sucks from our viewpoint(as surplus shooters) but it's their ammo, and I guess they will dispose of it the way they want too. Guess if all goverments were as mature as ours seem to be, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

[M1 Tanker]

Oh I understand the why Okie, but this doesn't help us shooters. Nor does the UN pushing for all countries to do this, not just South Africa.

[wm69]

Guys, this is old news. The "illegal" ammo is what we've been shooting. The stuff that was snuck out was from 1998-2005.
This article is from 2001

http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles08/my_round.html

Sucks that the UN has stopped SA from selling ammo, but none has come out of SA for quite a while and none that DID come in recently was supposed to. Be happy the stuff that is here got here.

[GreenWolf]

The stuff that was snuck out was from 1998-2005.


The "2005" part means that the pipeline was last filled at most, two years ago. Unless there are other sources, maybe plentiful surplus 7.62x51 is a thing of the past afterall.

[SteelCore]

and their pressure on the mkt...I guess that small arms non-proliferation act is gonna couse problems in the world mkt with ammo after all.

I be thisll drive 140rnd BPs of the S African thru the roof.

Doesnt this all remind you of "Lord of War?" Smugglers..pay-offs...intrigue...billion rounds...

http://www.dvdlive.be/images/large/482/lord_of_war_ver5.jpg

[iocane]

In "Lord of War" the character Nicolas Cage played had competetion in the illegal arms trade business. I doubt if the politicians care one bit about ending conflicts. More likely they don't want there to be a open market for ammo. So every group thats in a fight has to deal with a arms dealer with connections. Its a get rid of competetion clause. All those rebel groups getting backed by various goverments keep having plenty of ammo. The terrorist in Iraq have plenty of bullets, the american citizen is finding bullets becoming a tad scarce.

[okie shooter]

yea but how well does that government get thing done?


If you are talking about demilling ammunition here in the states, it gets done really well, we cook most small arms ammunition thru a furnance until it detonates, this works well with small rounds(under 20mm), fuses, primers, and even some submunition gernades if they are not anti armor types. I wasnt pleased to be feeding the furnance ammo that I would love to shoot but we had to do it to test the furnance for epa compliance. Remember its your congressmen and women who decide not to sell surplus ammo but to demo it.

[okie shooter]

In "Lord of War" the character Nicolas Cage played had competetion in the illegal arms trade business. I doubt if the politicians care one bit about ending conflicts. More likely they don't want there to be a open market for ammo. So every group thats in a fight has to deal with a arms dealer with connections. Its a get rid of competetion clause. All those rebel groups getting backed by various goverments keep having plenty of ammo. The terrorist in Iraq have plenty of bullets, the american citizen is finding bullets becoming a tad scarce.

What you are saying is proably true, they really just want there not to be such a open free wheeling market for ammo especally in the hot spots of the third world, even though there is still ammo there, the southafricians want it not to be theirs. As for the terrorist in Iraq, I imagine its not coming off of international arms market, but from goverments of states where destablization of Iraq will benifit them, Iran an Syria.

If you do some research on the wholesale liquidation of the arms of the former soviet union, in the outer now independant republics, its interesting. Its always interesting how when one conflict cools down another will flare up due to the fact that the places the ammo and arms go just shift. When the PLO and Leabnon cooled off, it allowed the arms to flow back to the bakans and that conflict to get going again and it just keeps going.

It just sucks for us folks here not shooting at each other, and I imagine the folks in europe with legal machine guns maybe too.

[wm69]

The "2005" part means that the pipeline was last filled at most, two years ago. Unless there are other sources, maybe plentiful surplus 7.62x51 is a thing of the past afterall.


Possibly not. Not ALL countries have gone along with the UN. Just no more SA. Rumor is there is some Israeli 7.62 coming in.

What probably IS over is CHEAP plentiful surplus. The sellers overseas have seen what the American consumer is willing to pay (like when AIM has battlepacks for $43/each and they sell 350K in less than 24 hours) so they KNOW they can get higher prices for the stuff. No more dirt cheap ammo unless the economy tanks and people stop buying it at .30/round. THEN the price will drop, but if we're in that situation the average American won't be able to buy ammo even at drastically reduced prices.

I bought a CETME because at the time ammo was cheap and I'd shot a friend's that I really liked.

I got a bad CIA build that I later dumped and planned to try and find a better built example. Then ammo prices went through the roof. I've seen a couple of decent deals but passed on them simply because I don't need something taking up space if I can't afford to shoot it. I was holding on to hope that some more Radway, Hirt, Port, etc will come in cheap, but the chance of that happening (referring to the CHEAP part) is getting lower each time someone gets ammo in and people buy them out immediately. With the world wide web now the folks overseas see what people are paying for this stuff and price their supply accordingly.

What would you do if someone offered to sell you a mint 64 Corvette for $5K BUT gas was $50/gal? Yeah, sweet car to sit in the garage, but if you can't afford to drive it what's the use in having it?

If nothing else my wife is happy; she worries about guns in the home (yes, I've done the whole "safety first, inanimate object's don't shoot people etc etc" talk and tried to get her to think rationally, but alas, she is a female, so she just doesn't get it. That being said, I've been slowly but surely selling instead of buying over the last couple of years. I didn't have a big collection to start with but with no time to shoot, no money for ammo, and no good place to shoot (the local tree-huggers got the public range shut down at the National Forest) I'm slowly but surely getting rid of one piece after another.

The pieces I will never get rid of will probably end up being closet queens if I can't afford to feed them.

Guess I need to find a new hobby. Till then I live vicariously through the gunboards and my single friends who can still afford to shoot.

[Geilt]

Call me a bit skeptical of governments in general but these small brush wars will probably never stop. To some extent they keep warring factions concentrated on fighting one another and not going against regional governments themselves. Ammunition and small arms are the life blood of these types of wars afterall. Its not very often you see militias tear assing around in light and heavy armor. Normally its the "technicals" such as we see in Somalia and Iraq. All the militias need then are RPG rockets, ammo for their AK47s and explosives. There's enough of this stuff already on the black market to last for decades.

When we see the US government banning the importation of surplus ammunition we'll have to start seriously worrying.

[SteelCore]

"Remember its your congressmen and women who decide not to sell surplus ammo but to demo it."

Right, Okie...now I know where to start to get that crap repealed. I'd be weeping openly if I had to shove some beauteous US milsurp ammo into a furnace.:hurted:


"Guess I need to find a new hobby"
-->That sux, wm,but I think you'd be giving up a good hobby for the wrong reasons. I'll learn to reload before my CETME becomes a Wallhanger!

[wm69]

"Guess I need to find a new hobby"
-->That sux, wm,but I think you'd be giving up a good hobby for the wrong reasons. I'll learn to reload before my CETME becomes a Wallhanger!

Have you priced components lately?

Between my other "main hobby", which is Jeeps (CJ's) I've just got to figure out which one I want to put my $$$ into. I love both, but both are expensive as heck and with two kids now I just don't have the flow to do both. I will probably never completely get out of either one but right now the cost of doing either is murder so I'm selling the stuff I don't use often. I've never been into EBR till I shot my buddies Cetme, and then I got a bad build by the CAI monkeys, and then the price of ammo went through the roof. I guess it was bad timing on my part and while I could never say I've lost interest I have lost the ability to feed the couple of shooters I have left, much less buy new stuff. WIth $3-4/gal gas fast approaching things aren't looking to great for the Jeep side either.

[SteelCore]

Nope, but like anything...you gotta pay to play. When I got into shooting, one of the things I had to accept was that you pay market prices for your hobbies. If gas costs and you love jeeps, you know what? You buy gas. If you loke golf and greens fees skyrocket, you pay the fees. Same with ammo.

'sides, this hobby and raising me 4yr old daughter are cost-effective to me now that I'm not hemorraging $$$ c/o a wife (now ex-wife)..I gots some me-time, $$ for bills AND hobbies, etc. I know the daughter's gonna cost more and more, and I have the coolege fund already started.

I used to play regularly in bands, and Iv'e sold off all but the 'essentials' and 'collectibles' much like you have with firearms.

each to his own. :)

[wm69]

Nope, but like anything...you gotta pay to play. When I got into shooting, one of the things I had to accept was that you pay market prices for your hobbies. If gas costs and you love jeeps, you know what? You buy gas. If you loke golf and greens fees skyrocket, you pay the fees. Same with ammo.

'sides, this hobby and raising me 4yr old daughter are cost-effective to me now that I'm not hemorraging $$$ c/o a wife (now ex-wife)..I gots some me-time, $$ for bills AND hobbies, etc. I know the daughter's gonna cost more and more, and I have the coolege fund already started.

I used to play regularly in bands, and Iv'e sold off all but the 'essentials' and 'collectibles' much like you have with firearms.

each to his own. :)

IF 7.62 surp ever comes back down and is available I'll be looking into another CETME (preferably one with straight sights and + boltgap this time and of course assuming our lovely representatives don't ban them) but for now it'll be a 10/22 for my range time, just like I only drive the Jeep about twice a month. That college fund thing is downright scary. My girls are 2 and 3 and I've gotta pay off my $28K in student loans AND start saving for them.

We've gotten WAAAY off topic but it all goes back to the cheap SA surp drying up. It is the source of ALL of my problems!

[GreenWolf]

If you shot X amount of 7.62 when it cost $Y, does it mean that you shoot X/2 amount of 7.62 when it costs $Y*2?

Gas used to be $0.65 a gallon, and people thought that was the beginning of the end times. If you can accept shooting half as much, paying twice as much doesn't seem so bad. Or does it?

[k98k792]

I look at it this way . Money makes the world go round. As long as someone wants it, and is willing to pay for it,someone else will find a way to sell it to them. Ammo will show up. The price will be what the market dictates.

[MID]

Its them dam africans messing every up for us.

[Big Steve]

I have "demilled" lots of it for them. And paid to do it! I think we should offer to take care of the rest of it for them, won't cost them a dime! And nobody will get shot. We will even pay shipping!
Steve :machinegun:

[SteelCore]

I'm in!

"My girls are 2 and 3 and I've gotta pay off my $28K in student loans AND start saving for them."
-->Yep. took the better part of 12yrs to pay mine off. 2 girls plus a wife!?!? Man you need to invest in a few bathrooms fer you hut! :)

BTW< OT is what we do best here. ;)

"If you shot X amount of 7.62 when it cost $Y, does it mean that you shoot X/2 amount of 7.62 when it costs $Y*2?"
-->Heehee. Actually, I took option Z, which is buy a mosin cheep, then by thousands o rounds at about 7-10cent per, and shoot that! (But I did reduce my expenditure of 762NATO thru the CETME. I figure I'll shoot more like 200/yr thru it instead of the 700-thousand I was putting thru it that last few years. GLad 762x39 came back down...stock up while it lasts [i've been to Planning's school of Ammo acquisition. :P]

[Geilt]

Well with Perro alluding to the fact that he's looking to slim down his armory its just a matter of time before there's a glut of ammo back on the market.

[SteelCore]

"Perro alluding to the fact that he's looking to slim down his armory"
-->Really? Man... I'm sure he'd at least keep his Johnson...