What to buy???????

[jfowl31]

OK guys...... I hate it when guys do this, but Ive come to the point where I HAVE to....... I am such a newbie in the AR world, and Ive seen too many guys get hosed on buying crappy rifles....... sooooooooo here's the deal.

I was talking to a buddy the other day, and mentioned to him how much I hate AR's but that I thought that every gun-friendly American citizen should own at least 1. I think my hatred for them comes from bad experiences with 3 different ones... 1 had a weak extractor spring (found out later), 1 was just a total POS, and 1 was so small it was uncomfortable.... oh wait, then theres the 1 I bought and returned 2 days later... but it was a carbon-light, and not "technically" a true AR... but it had issues, and wouldnt stay on paper at 100 yards.

ok... basic idea is that Im biting the bullet and I want to buy a kit and build it myself... they are easy enough to put together, so I think I can save some money this way. Ill buy a complete upper, and build the bottom half. I should be able to do this right?

Ive got $600 give or take 50-100 to spend because I finally filed my taxes. This will be my last gun purchase for a long time as Im getting married in a month and a half, and Ill need to save any extra money to put towards a house after that.

Id like to stick with 223, even though I dont particularly care for the round... its tradition ya know? And I would LOVE to have a match set-up or something very accurate... Barrel length in the medium range, not a long ass varmint barrel, but not a 16" carbine. Dont like collapsible stocks, so if anyone knows of a good priced fixed stock, or something unique, but not T-6 adjustable, please point me in the right direction.

You guys on this forum are some of the only ones that I trust to point me in the right direction on this one, and I hate feeling vulnerable... I seriously have NO knowledge of AR's in general except for how they operate.

AND... is there ANY possible chance of getting a piston-driven upper in for that price? or is that outta my league for now?

gimme links... brand names... make me an offer if you're FTF in TX... you name it........ I NEED GUIDANCE! Its my last Hoorah......................

dont want to do gunbroker, so unless the auctions are just an example of what one looks like, no links to those types please... I dont really like the idea of buying something over the internet, and having to deal with people far away from me if there happened to be a problem... I like to be able to drive it down the street to show it to em.

So flood me with info........ Im open for any info. Feel free to tell me how dumb my return comments are and all that stuff.... I can take it.... Ive dished out my fair share.... its time to face the jury.

[nalioth]

If you can break down an AR15/M16, you can assemble a lower, easily.


ARs aren't 'built', they're assembled. All the machining and hard work has been done for you.

Cheapest gas piston items I've found are (of course) out of stock. http://www.globaltactical.com/axami/shop.php?grd=377&prd=378
The manufacturer is filling back orders now and not shipping to any outlets, from what I gather.

http://www.pof-usa.com will cost you almost a grand for a gas piston upper (just the complete upper).

[jfowl31]

Ive read Knobby's install sticky plenty of times, and Im 100% confident I can do it... Ill have to go buy some roll pin punches though.

I really just need to know what the is the best quality stuff I can buy for $650 total... whole kit n caboodle... stocks everything......... I could cut back on the dipping for the month and afford probably $700-725.

[jfowl31]

ok... Im thinking Stag for the lower... thats what Knobby uses in his build tutorial I think, and I havent read anything bad about them...... any input there?

They seem to very reasonably priced... somehwere around $120ish right?

so now Ive got $500-$550 left to spend after the FFL fees and all that.

can I get a really nice kit for that? something to possible expect 3/4-1MOA?????

[jfowl31]

sorry... forgot to mention that the upper needs to be flat-top with or without removeable sights... I probably wont ever have the irons on, so just a flat-top with no sights whatsoever would work fine... I suck at AR sights... I prefer the hideous sight picture that the cetme provides... go figure. Ill just put some glass on... Ive got plenty of scopes sitting around that will suffice until I can afford something quality.

[LCPL 4]

Lowest priced 20" Standard AR at Model1Sales is around $460. Add another $20 I would quess for shipping. An Essential Arms Lower for about $80 with a FFL transer fee. Around here it's about $20 bucks. Put it together yourself for about $580. Later on add a .22 conversion kit for around $130 so you can plink on the cheap when things may be tight.

[jfowl31]

I like that site... not a whole lot of fluff, and the kits are there and easyto see... Are they good quality stuff? what about the Essential Arms Lowers? Does quality really matter with the lowers or is it just a name stamped on the side?

This is what Id LOVE to have, though it may be a bit outta my price range... but I get a bull-barrel, no extra gadgets or anything, just a plain jane accurate rifle... but I dont wanna get a lemon brand and end up hating it all over again.
http://www.model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=KV2000&storeid=1&image=V20k.gif

Id probably get the SS version... 1/8 or 1/9 twist? which twist rate shoots surplus ammo better? I assume the faster rate shoots higher grain bullets better...

That kit... $535 +20 ish shipping... 555

and then 100 for the receiver you mentioned

I could pull that off I think.

[nalioth]

Jfowl31, my local FFL guy sells LRB lowers (they make M14 and AR15 receivers) for $109 out the door. LRB makes them for other vendors, too.

[jfowl31]

If anyone has bought a kit from that sight... does the upper come assembled? or will I need to do that myself, and, is that something that needs to be left to a gunsmith or do they headspace easily?

I also really like the 6.8 spc stuff too... though I have a friend that would kill me for stealing his thunder on one... hes been talking for months about buying a 6.8 spc... tossing it back and forth with selling his AR to buy a sig 556 or buying the 6.8.......

Id probably stay with 223 for the first one, and move up from there. I like the idea of being able to swap calibers with just an upper swap...... 50 beowulf looks MEAN!

[jfowl31]

Naolith, or any other TX guys... if you know of any other good deals in or around the Austin Area, PLEASE let me know.... I could do a drive to H-Town to buy the whole thing for sure if it would save me some cash.... Id save 20-25 on the FFl fees, and probably more than that on shipping, so if your guy has full kits in that mimic the prices on the internet.... I may just drive to houston.

[LCPL 4]

I've never purchased a kit from Model1 but I've been looking into purchasing one for a while now. I've seen quite a few posts around other forums that members seem quite pleased with their purchases. There is also the M&A Parts and the Del-ton's.

Essential Arms original made some less than stellar lowers in the beginning from what I've read. They then started making them under for other companies which were for government contracts ( also gathered from various forums on the net) Now that they have started making them for public consumption again, they have been getting praise for their quality and pricing.

Heavier grain then around 1/7 or so. Supposedly they wear out faster but I've never had the problem of having to replace one due to wear. Lower grained then around 1/12 and up.

.22 barreled uppers are usually 1/16.

Don't take my word for it. Ask the experts at AR15.com

Edit - Uppers come completely assembled and head spaced as per their website.

[nalioth]

Jfowl31, I ordered my CAR15 kit from M & A parts (they are in Illinois so I avoided state sales tax), and got the $109 LRB lower from my local gunsmith.

Yes, you can specifiy a completely assembled upper when you order.

[jfowl31]

so who makes those kits at model 1 and m&a? and are they quality stuff... they are the same price, so Im guessing Id just go with whichever one was cheaper... and Im leaning towards the non-ss barrel just for the black "cool factor"...

I dunno... I need to slow down and....

[tump]

model 1 did fine by me but i think knobby had some customer service problems. just snap the lower together and your ready to go.

[LCPL 4]

Supposedly they are owned by two members of the same family.

Look here...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=321238&page=1

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=320470

[jlpskydive]

I have a model 1 upper 20" in the 6.8 caliber and I'm very happy with it. The people that I have spoken with on the phone there also have been very pleasant. my .02. It's on a Rock River lower and fits nicely. It doesn't fit that great on my Stag lower however.

[texlurch]

Jfowl, all the "parts kits" usually come with the upper assembled and head spaced. And usually will note that somewhere in the description.

Keep in mind Model 1 is in TX, so you'll add sales tax.

Stag is a good lower, also might consider Superior Arms. Check out Arfcom as they have sales pretty regular and I got mine for $89 shipped a couple years ago, think regular price is around $100

I just got the Varmint 24" from Model 1, quality parts thruout. Mine ended up a bit more once I added the ACE ARFX stock and RR 2-stage. Didn't get a chance to really break it in, so reports are still out on accuracy.

My other AR is a 16" mid-length from M&A parts. It shoots very well, but I have never measured group size. Suffice to say on a std. rifle target at 100 yds, open sight, 9 and 10 ring are completely gone at the end of the day and 100 rds or so.

There is not much accuracy difference between the 16 and 20, so get one that you like, because you can always upgrade.

Also don't forget to order a couple mags; the kit's don't include any.

[jfowl31]

Hmmmmmmmm So the uppers are their brand? All they say on the website is that the uppers and parts kits are built by a current US contractor...... If they are good enough quality, and noone thinks Ill be disappointed, maybe it will be a good entry level AR for a non-entry level shooter....

Thats what Im looking for really. If I ever get a straight SHTF battle rifle version of the AR, I will more that likely insist on dumping some money into a colt or something along those lines. For now, I want an AR, thats accurate, and functions well... Not real worried about brand names, and all that, I just want to make sure that Im not spending 700 instead of 1000 and getting a POS because I want to save money.

I think Ill wait a couple more days, and think on it some more, and then probably buy the 20" varmint kit... havent decided if I want to spend the cash and get the match trigger or not. Ill probably just get the base model and then work my way up from there with different upgrade parts or something...

Ill have to take a gander at some shops in the area to see what lowers are going for around here.

My guess is Ill have to pay at least $120, but wont have to pay shipping or transfer fees...

Thanks for the help so far... and keep it coming.

Im looking at the M&A ones since I can save on sales tax.

That will put me to $550 or so after shipping.... still under 700 after I buy a decent lower... and possible a better feeling P-grip...

[nalioth]

I think Ill wait a couple more days, and think on it some more,

Waiting usually leads to greater discoveries (or greater savings).

Any more, "Colt" is just a name. Bushmaster, Olympic, RRA and many others all produce a fine product.

Or as I like to put it "C"[ching] "O"[ching] "L"[ching] "T"[ching]

[nalioth]

I must be tired or feeling liberal . . .

I'd hate for you to take a AR15 out to a SHTF event. Get a good rifle. Get an AK or an AR-180. Hell, even a Mauser will work (you don't spray and pray at zombies)

I don't like the AR15 design, no matter how many have been issued. They've been kept in service by fat cat politicians guarding their constituency.


Direct gas impingement (http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=479) is EVIL

[jfowl31]

Yeah but I want a Colt for the same reason I want a Smith revolver... its the original........

May not ever happen, but my IDEAL AR-15 would be the original vietnam era rifles with no forward assist and the triangle handguard... I cant afford one of those, so Ill probably just get a base combat model from a good maker and put some vietnam furniture on it...

Im still confused though as to who is the actual MAKER of the parts kit on model 1 and m&a......... Am I gonna get hosed on parts compatibility if something breaks??? remember... I dont know crap about these rfles, and I dont want to walk into something where I made an ignorant bad decision.

I typically avoid non-name brands at all costs, so thats making me a bit leary of those 2 sights... since Ive never heard their names before.

Is it all the same stuff nowadays? Same quality of machining... will it function perfectly for me if I keep it lubed and clean????? thats the basic question... If I treat her right, will she return the favor? or am I getting into a jammomatic situation Like the other 3 AR's Ive shot?

[jfowl31]

and... dont worry... I got a badass running Cetme and a SB 12-guage, plus a barrage of 22 lr's to suffice for a SHTF event... I want the AR to have one, and to shoot varmints, and/or target with... if someones comin at me to kill me... I know what Im grabbing... first letters G, and it ends in LOCK.

[jfowl31]

Oh... and piston driven uppers are SWEET... Ill buy one as soon as they come down in cost...

I bet that piston uppers pretty much replace all AR sales in the next couple decades once the existing uppers fade out, and mor epeople jump on the bandwagon.

[nalioth]

Yeah but I want a Colt for the same reason I want a Smith revolver... its the original........

May not ever happen, but my IDEAL AR-15 would be the original vietnam era rifles with no forward assist and the triangle handguard... I cant afford one of those, so Ill probably just get a base combat model from a good maker and put some vietnam furniture on it...

Im still confused though as to who is the actual MAKER of the parts kit on model 1 and m&a......... Am I gonna get hosed on parts compatibility if something breaks??? remember... I dont know crap about these rfles, and I dont want to walk into something where I made an ignorant bad decision.

I typically avoid non-name brands at all costs, so thats making me a bit leary of those 2 sights... since Ive never heard their names before.

Is it all the same stuff nowadays? Same quality of machining... will it function perfectly for me if I keep it lubed and clean????? thats the basic question... If I treat her right, will she return the favor? or am I getting into a jammomatic situation Like the other 3 AR's Ive shot?
They are all built to the same spec. All should interchange (with the possibility of some non-interchangeabilty with Colt)

You'll be cleaning cleaning cleaning cleaning cleaning....

[jfowl31]

I dont mind cleaning really... And I wont be shooting it all that much... I realize it may be a bit of a pain, but at the same time, its just one of those things that I think every red-blooded american should own... 1 AR and 1 1911... so far I have neither, and cant stand the feel of a 1911.... yeah call me crazy... i prefer the goofy grip angle and plastic on a Glock. But Ill still buy a 1911 once I get the money, just becuase I feel its something I SHOULD own. after that will be an M1-garand, a Springfield 03... you get the idea.

But I need to start with the assault type rifle since Im pretty much convinced that if the dems take power next year, there will be a fast following AWB, and I want to get this one outta the way... I can always buy M1's and 1911's... I need to get a good lower and a couple uppers to swap on there... one of those may be a piston driven if I ever win the lottery or something...

LOVE the OS on an AK, but hate the accuracy... Like SKS's, but want something American... Im happy with my current collection, but need something else to tinker on now that the Cetme runs like a top (actually it always did...), and my other projects are wrapping up.

[texlurch]

Model 1 and M&A both get their parts from elsewhere. I am pretty sure the middy 16 I got is a Rock River upper, since they have the patent on the mid-length (or used to)
They also use Wilson barrels, and others, but there is no markings on the uppers that I have found, or the small parts.
Basically all mil-spec stuff.

Heck, if you want to wait another week or so till I get back in town, you can try out both of mine and pick them apart.

[jfowl31]

Just the drive to Houston alone will add another 50-100 bucks to my total cost becuse my truck gets allof 12 mpg on the highway......

If its all milspec, then theres nothing really i could want more.

Im starting to lean closer and closer to just taking the plunge.

I WAS, before I got onto this ar kick, gonna buy a 22 lr silencer, for my P22 and Walther G22, but that sounded less and less practical the more I thought about it, and they keep getting cheaper and cheaper... Illwait til sometime this summer to get that one.

So long as Im not getting into any cheap made stuff, and everything is still milspec... Im happy.

[LCPL 4]

Call me crazy :056: but I just made myself a guinea pig. I just ordered a Blackthorne 20" A2 Kit for $409 shipped. Read back and forth over the net about how these were the Hesse/Vulcan people just under a different name. Most said run away but had never seen the rifle qaulity they are putting out. Those that did purchase them seem to have liked them. Another thing is that they are not chrome lined barrels. I figure right at $500 if I go with a EA lower to complete it plus I'll have to pick up a few mags down the road.

I'll be sure to take some real good pics and lengthy range report on what my money just purchased .... if it gets here. Either I get to post a "you get what you pay for" or "gee, that's a good deal" hopefully in a few weeks.

[jfowl31]

1 more question...

M&A, I save on taxes as they are out of TX, but only have 1 option in that they dont sell a varmint rifle without the stainless barrel.

Model1 sells the black barrel with chrome bore, for the same price as the stainless, which I am thinking I would prefer, but then I gotta pay an extra $50 on tax...

What would I gain in getting a chromed bore over a stainless barrel? Is it just how easy it comes clean? Or is there more to it than that?

If its just the ease of cleaning, Ill just get the stainless... it looks cool anyways. I clean like crazy already, so its not worth 50 bucks to me to make i easier to clean... Ill work harder to save 50 bucks.

[Perro]

a lower, is a lower, is a lower

and a colt, is not any more "original" than a FN
and a FN is not any more "original" than the companys that make the parts for FN
and - blah blah blah

basically in a nutshell - any lower will work - unless the thing was machined wrong, you wont have a problem
they are all made from the same forgings
so buying a name brand anything only accomplishes getting a name brand engraved on the lower

as far as having a perfectly functioning AR for little money? Man, youre asking for ALOT there - even the name brand ones that you spend ALOT of money on can have problems. This might not necessarily be a problem with the parts, but of the design.

Ive seen a rock river arms new in the box refuse to shoot - turns out the gas key was loose

ive seen a colt sp1 refuse to feed no matter what type of ammo you threw in it

and ive seen an olympic crack itself

you can have problems with ANY of the ARs

my suggestion? spend that money on something far more reliable, easy to use, NEVER breaks parts, and is more fun - buy an ak47 or ak74 and spend all that extra money on ammo / accesories :)

my opinions only

[jfowl31]

Yeah yeah... Believe me Perro, I understand... Im not an AR lover... but Im not an AK lover either... While I love the OS of the AK MUCH more than the AR, I hate the accuracy. This ones just a tinker toy really... Something relatively reliable, and plenty accurate.

Relatively reliable in this case to me means that it will be used for hunting and nothing else, so if it jams the worst thing that can happen is a rabbit, or coyote gets away from a second shot. I dont ever plan on betting my life on it... if I were, Id get an AK hands down.

Ive shot AR's and Ak's both 47s and 74's, and by far, the AR's are more accurate, and I even shot the 74 really well.

Ive gone back and forth on this one for a LONG time, and finally broke down and decided to get an AR to PLAY with, and nothing more really.

While I appreciate the comments on other rifles being more reliable, Im pretty set on getting an AR... its just a matter of which one.

So.... somebody give me some pros and cons about stainless barrels vs regular with chromed bores.

[LCPL 4]

Copied/edited from another site. I think it covers it better than I could...

Q: What is the difference between Chrome/Moly and Chrome Lined? How does Stainless fit in?

A: All manufactures use Chrome/Moly steel to make barrels - its a type of steel that has some chrome in it to help with wear and corrosion resistance IT IS NOT the same as 'Chrome Lined'. A chrome/moly barrel is the least expensive barrel you can purchase - yet they can be quite accurate.

Chrome Lining is a process where chrome is 'welded' to the steel of the barrel. This produces a coating that is twice as hard as the steel. It prevents corrosion, makes cleaning much easier, and extends the barrels life. There is also a slight drop in accuracy - something 99% of shooters won't notice. Chrome lined chambers are a reliability enhancer.

Stainless steel is easier to rifle consistantly, and consistancy is the key to an accurate barrel. Once broken in stainless barrels are almost as easy to clean as chrome lined. Stainless barrels are also very corrosion resistant. Generally the most accurate rifle have stainless steel barrels.

[jfowl31]

That tells a WHOLE lot!

The other barrel was chrome/moly, so I wouldnt have been gaining anything really except for having a black barrel rather than silver... and I kinda like the silver... it draws attention to the massve barrel!

Thanks for the info... SS it is!

[jfowl31]

OK....... 1 more question.

The more and more I read, the more I am getting the idea that a 20" barrel isnt enough for a 223 for long range performance.

Any truth to this? I plan on this rifle strictly being an accuracy, plinking range and varmint gun, so, weight wont be an issue. the 2 kits are the same price... Im leaning towards the 24" now because of long-range flat-shooting performance.

Is all the hype about 24" barrels true? Or is it just hype, and Ill get the same long-range performance from a 20". I once heard that after 18" or so, 223 doesnt get effected much, but now that i revisit this, it seems that a lot of people say you need 24" to really shoot distance.

[jonboy20]

Pick a lower....any lower and buy a kit from delton.

[jfowl31]

whats delton's site?

google aint doin nuttin for me

[okie shooter]

Here you go

www.del-ton.com

On the build, you can do lots with these, To get colt aint what it used to be, at one time there wernt many variants, thus I got a colt, because it cost no more than a no name built rifle when I was searching, infact nib colt was only forty or fifty more than a used no name at the time thus it was a no brainer.

[jfowl31]

well... I found www.del-ton.com but they dont have hardly anything as far as full kits go... nothing in the varmint department that I could find... any direction?

[okie shooter]

I am one of those that feels if you want varmit guns you might be better served with a bolt action rifle, but thats just my opnion on these, I have two of them, the first one I got three days before the first brady bill passed, and they tossed assault rifles into the frey just for the heck of it. On building a one hole moa rifle, you are talking more money than you stated wanting to spend on the first rifle. Just my two cents on this idea though but for tack driving, you need to go with heavy barrels, free floted hand guards, matched upper and lower receivers plus far more than that. If tack driving is what you want, I would look long and hard on research on what things are needed to squeese these things.

I will say one reason I got one, was to take it out as the black rifle, and put in the thirty round mags and try to pretend I can rock and roll with it. It is fun, lots of fun. but most of the semi auto rifles I have better be.

P.S. get plenty of mags, as many as you think you might want, they may get banned again you never know.

[jfowl31]

not looking for 1-hole accuracy... just MOA will do fine, and Er shaw barrels claim to be .5-.75 MOA... that should be fine for me.

I realize I wont be getting match grade accuracy down range... but I think this will work just fine for what im looking for.

NOW 1 day, Id love to have one of these fabled 1-hole rifles... Ive done the whole bolt action bit with varmint barrels, and wasnt overly impressed honestly. I got a buddy with a remy 700 with the 5r barrel, and it can drive nails... but I aint spending 1000 bucks on a rifle that shoots so slow... not until I got bookoos of extra money... Im happy with 1-1.5 MOA accuracy for now... it will suffice just fine.

[jfowl31]

1 more..... this ones only $449 which would be WELL within my budget... but I dont know about the dealer... they are mentioned on another thread here as being a bit shady...?????? Please someone tell me they are alright, cuz I sure could use to save 85 bucks

http://akpartskits.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=5_9&products_id=286&osCsid=7277d840f8524cb5c1f697adbf361784

[jonboy20]

If you buy from them...we will all laugh at you, I will never go to a range with you....and no texas shoot out for you....kidding, but remember that it is Hesse!!!!

Have fun reading!
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=307172

[jfowl31]

IM reading that thread right now..... Its all alot of spculation, and a lot of happy customers................. Now Im just not sure if I wanna be one of the guineypigs.......

If they arent making the parts.... whats the big deal with Hesse being the dealer? They are getting their parts from other companies... claimed to be military suppliers, so its all milspec... only thing it seems there is to worry about is the assembly of the upper since thats really the only thing the company does besides package and ship.

It sure is tempting to save 85 bucks though!!! Im only on page 4 of the thread now... does it get worse? range reports come back bad or what?

[jonboy20]

Job opening at militartyfirearms.com: We need someone to test out blackthorne products sold by Hesse. You will have to spend your own money and we will laugh at you when you waste it.......


Read all 24+ pages and see if you still feel that way. My opinion...I liked you better when you were screwing up the traffic on 35. Go for it, but if you can spend $550, go with companies that have a better rep than that.

FYI, my weekends are booked until middle of may, so you should be done by then. after that, lets meet up at eagle peak or reds or where ever.

~JB

[okie shooter]

On saveing 85 bucks, is it worth it if the company has a bad rep when you try to sell the rifle, no matter what. I sat at a show, and a military surplus store owner, who sells a lot of stuff in okc, just had nothing to say good about century cetmes or g-3's, no matter if you had redone your rifle he wasnt going to listen, there are lots of folks out there that way. If the company has some of the track reacord of hesse, I would think long and hard about what the eighty five bucks actually saves you. Remember these folks at one time sold carbon fibre uppers too.

[texlurch]

1 more question...

What would I gain in getting a chromed bore over a stainless barrel? Is it just how easy it comes clean? Or is there more to it than that?

If its just the ease of cleaning, Ill just get the stainless... it looks cool anyways. I clean like crazy already, so its not worth 50 bucks to me to make i easier to clean... Ill work harder to save 50 bucks.

Difference is in accuracy.

best to worst= stainless, chrome moly, chrome lined.

Chrome lining is to help in cleaning, and also make the barrel last longer under FA use.

So far as barrel length, between the 20 and 24, what you gain is velocity. Out to 5-600 yds, they are a wash, beyond that the 24 starts to shine, with the right ammo.

[LCPL 4]

Job opening at militartyfirearms.com: We need someone to test out blackthorne products sold by Hesse. You will have to spend your own money and we will laugh at you when you waste it.......

I've allready taken that position. You can begin laughter now.


Call me crazy :056: but I just made myself a guinea pig. I just ordered a Blackthorne 20" A2 Kit for $409 shipped. Read back and forth over the net about how these were the Hesse/Vulcan people just under a different name. Most said run away but had never seen the rifle qaulity they are putting out. Those that did purchase them seem to have liked them. Another thing is that they are not chrome lined barrels. I figure right at $500 if I go with a EA lower to complete it plus I'll have to pick up a few mags down the road.

I'll be sure to take some real good pics and lengthy range report on what my money just purchased .... if it gets here. Either I get to post a "you get what you pay for" or "gee, that's a good deal" hopefully in a few weeks.

I did say to call me crazy didn't I?

Besides, it will fit right in next to my cheapo POS Century CETME. :744:

[M1 Tanker]

I haven't ordered a kit from Model 1 before, but I can tell you their FCGs suck. They need to be cleaned up a lot.

[jfowl31]

yeah... as you get further into that thread, the comments go from decent to bad...

Really, it seems the deal with this company is getting consistent stuff from them... some say theirs is perfect... others are getting shite...

I cant afford to take a risk and deal with the customer service...

Is M&A any better??? They seem to get the same weird shady reviews...

Ill pass on em Jonboy... but it sure was tempting to save money... they did their job in getting the word out on the new company thats for sure... a lot of people bought stuff.

[jonboy20]

From what I read....more people go with delton for a basic kit than model 1, but go with model 1 for a more custom rifle. I have no experience with either company.

[Perro]

funny
ive used about 5 or so model 1 fire control groups and theyve all worked just fine - just goes to show you that you can get junk anywhere. honestly, i think the problem you are having is not with the FCG, but with the part you put it into - mine was not up to spec either, but its easily fixed. Put those parts into an AR lower, and ill bet they wont be so bad


and about hesse
ive seen one of the FALs they used to build exploded in a gunstore.
The receiver was grenaded way worse than that testing house FAL that exploded the williams aluminum receiver.
The owner told me the guy didnt even make it through 1 mag and it blew chunks of steel from the receiver into his arms.
i wouldnt trust hesse to build ANYTHING correctly, MUCH LESS HEADSPACE STUFF.

i wont tell you not to buy it, but if you do, and the thing blows up, i want good pics of the carnage - fair?? :)

[LCPL 4]

Depends if they give me one of those new bionical arms or one of the old time meat hooks - may be hard to push the shutter button.

[jfowl31]

I would go with del-tec, but they only have the "real" configs for the ar's... no varmint uppers that I could find...

btw... UPDATE!!!

I went to Mooney Firearms in Round Rock, and bought a COMPLETE STAG lower... bottstock and all for $240 with 2 new military mags.

Ill be able to order an upper, and still be easily under $620 when its all said and done unless they rip me a new asshole in shipping.

Now I have what I know is a quality lower, so even if the upper is crap, I can buy a good upper in the future and be set.... Im on my way.... gulp gulp gulp... down the hatch goes the koolaid.

[jonboy20]

How was mooney's? Storefront or home business?

[jonboy20]

check out

http://jtdistributing.com/index.html

[jfowl31]

Mooney's was home brew... just a shack in his back yard... but the guy as one of the nicest dudes Ive ever met.

http://www.mooneysfirearms.com/index.asp?PageAction=QUICKORDER

I plan on using him for any of my FFL needs for any transaction in the future... He was a stand-up guy!

Centex boys... here that???????? A good FFL! Call him up, and tell him I sent you!

[jfowl31]

Is J&T supposed to be better than M&A and Model 1?????

They are a few bucks more... but if it means not getting factory seconds.... maybe its worth it.

[tump]

i don't think that the uppers come with a bolt group so be sure to check.(bolt/carrier/charger). you may have to order it seperate.

[jonboy20]

Is J&T supposed to be better than M&A and Model 1?????

They are a few bucks more... but if it means not getting factory seconds.... maybe its worth it.


J&T is Doublestar, they make really nice lowers! There was a shotgun news article about their patrol rifle a few weeks ago.

[texlurch]

+1, make sure because just about all the uppers don't have the bolt or carrier

[jlpskydive]

Or charging handle.

[Grasshopper]

http://www.tanneryshop.com/argunkits.htm


Check out William Snelling, he is a good man with a good family and is a shooter himself. Talk to him and ask some questions about your rifle and what he prefers himself. William is good people.

http://www.tanneryshop.com/aboutme.htm

This the man you would be buying from.

16", 20" or 24" Varmint Kit Forged flattop, Aluminum free floating tube, Stainless steel 1 in 8 twist varmint barrel, Picatinny gas block, A2 trapdoor stock

SALE PRICE.......................... 568.95
A "Kit" consists of everything with the exception of a stripped lower receiver. All components to assemble the lower receiver are included,

NO FFL req.
NOTE ALL OUR PART KITS CONTAIN PARTS FROM THE FOLLOWING MFG ( COLT, DPMS, LTM, CTM )

We can up grade your kit with a custom trigger , grip or butt stock , just let us know. We will Quote you a price of an upgrade, this way you get the kit you want without having to go to several different parts dealers to get the custom parts to put in your kit . We are a one stop shop order it just the way you want it and never have extra parts left over from your up grade. We give you cash trade in on the parts for up grades on all our kits.

[jfowl31]

Does he carry just assembled uppers? All I could find were complete kits... though sometimes Im an idiot and miss stuff.

[jfowl31]

I e-mailed him, and he really is "good people."

He's been more communicative in e-mails than anyone else of the other 5 or 6 companies I talked to.

He's giving me a good deal on the upper... $450 with the bolt/carrier/charging handle.

He only uses name brand stuff... colt, dpms, lmt, cmt. I dont know what brand the barrel is, but Ive heard it's Wilson, which would be great.

He's also hooking a friend of mine up with a 6.8 upper for $400!

btw, both of those prices included shipping to anywhere US! Im pretty damn excited now... As SOON as my tax return check gets direct deposited, Ill be ordering!

Im ready to get shooting thats fer sure.

Thanks for all the advice... Ill post back with pics of it when it arrives, and range report... all that good stuff.

OR if anyone has ANY more advice... throw it my way.