Keyholing cetme: RANGE REPORT

[heavy_weapons_guy]

I took the keyholing cetme I built for a test drive today without the muzzle brake and it shot 100% better than before! I shot 24 times - 5 rounds of radway green, 19 rounds of silver bear .308 . Accuracy improved a bit from what it was doing before but now it shoots slightly to the left. Other than that, its doing really good. Removing the MB totally seemed to fix the problem. NO keyholing what so ever. I even re-did the 10 foot shot (that the cetme previously keyholed on) and it didnt keyhole at all. I am proud of it! Now if I can adjust the sights or something to make it not shoot to the left it'll be fine from there.. The only problem left to solve is its shooting slightly left... any suggestions?? I can aim center mass on a target and line up the sights accordingly but the bullet goes left now.. Please fill me in on how to fix this and I'll be good to go..

Another thing I wanted to add too... I removed the HK collapsible stock I had on it and put the century plastic stock in its place with the original recoil spring /operating rod that came in the parts kit. After that, it seemed like the accuracy improved. I also noticed (and thought it was noteworthy) that the recoil spring/operating rod on the HK collapsible stock is about 1/2 inch shorter than the original operating rod that came with the parts kit. Do you think that spring tension on the recoil spring/operating rod would affect accuracy? If it does, then I'll be getting rid of the collapsible stock...


Thanks in advance

[hunter_la5]

that certainly is good news. glad it was something simple.

did you ever fix the bolt gap issue?

[heavy_weapons_guy]

that certainly is good news. glad it was something simple.

did you ever fix the bolt gap issue?

me too :-)

As for the bolt gap, no I never did fix the zero bolt gap. Both the cetme I built and the cetme I got from century have a bolt gap of zero. However the century cetme has had close to 1,000 rounds of ammo down its barrel since 2004 without a hiccup. Its shot everything from SA to RG, even 180 rounds of aussie without a problem. How would you suggest fixing the bolt gap? How would you set the bolt gap to like .015 or .010 or something??

Thanks

[jfowl31]

HWG... I cant stress this enough, and you really dont seem to be understanding it... DO NOT SHOOT A RIFLE WITH NO BOLT GAP!!!!!!!!!

Was that loud enough?

With no bolt gap, the rifle is not locking up, and you can have catastrophic failures... case head separations OR WORSE...

You need to read the stickies and read them some more and then read them again... You cant necessarily just "set" bolt gap... especially on this one that you just built and didnt take the time to set the barrel in the right spot. The Century will at least be close... you can try new plus-sized rollers, and/or a new BH and LP...

The one you built... I have a strange inkling that its nowhere near where its supposed to be and probably needs to be rebuilt completely!

I personally couldnt care less how the rifle functioned for 1000 rounds... its not in spec... and therefor needs to be fixed. Im sure theres a bunch of rifles with out of spec headspace that "have been functioning flawlessly" BUT THEY STILL NEED TO BE FIXED!

As far as shooting left... after you fix the other stuff. you can adjust windage at the front sight. the post is set off center to the front sight pin, and so as you turn it, the windage adjusts... set elevation, then tweak it to set windage... make sure to loosen the set screw first... youll need a sight tool from tapco or someone like that.

but dont even bother with sighting it in any more... FIX THE GAP!

I dont think I can warn any more than I have already... so Ill retire for now.

[tomoshenko]

HWG... I cant stress this enough, and you really dont seem to be understanding it... DO NOT SHOOT A RIFLE WITH NO BOLT GAP!!!!!!!!!

Was that loud enough?

With no bolt gap, the rifle is not locking up, and you can have catastrophic failures... case head separations OR WORSE...

You need to read the stickies and read them some more and then read them again... You cant necessarily just "set" bolt gap... especially on this one that you just built and didnt take the time to set the barrel in the right spot. The Century will at least be close... you can try new plus-sized rollers, and/or a new BH and LP...

The one you built... I have a strange inkling that its nowhere near where its supposed to be and probably needs to be rebuilt completely!

I personally couldnt care less how the rifle functioned for 1000 rounds... its not in spec... and therefor needs to be fixed. Im sure theres a bunch of rifles with out of spec headspace that "have been functioning flawlessly" BUT THEY STILL NEED TO BE FIXED!

As far as shooting left... after you fix the other stuff. you can adjust windage at the front sight. the post is set off center to the front sight pin, and so as you turn it, the windage adjusts... set elevation, then tweak it to set windage... make sure to loosen the set screw first... youll need a sight tool from tapco or someone like that.

but dont even bother with sighting it in any more... FIX THE GAP!

I dont think I can warn any more than I have already... so Ill retire for now.
This is like watching a train-wreck that is about to happen because the engineer is asleep at the wheel and you canT Do ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!!!
....AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! TELL ME THIS IS JUST A BAD DREAM!!!

Seriously, No Joke, listen to JFowl31, fix the rifle...please.

[jfowl31]

I know exactly what you mean Tom... I let this stuff get to me waaaay too much I guess... I just hate to see stuff like this happen... oh well. It aint my face... nor my rifle... I feel like I did my part... at least a little bit. Its up to HWG now really.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

OK,
I'LL FIX IT BEFORE SHOOTING IT ANYMORE.... TELL ME HOW.. NOW!!! I DONT WANT TO KABOOM ONE OR BOTH OF MY CETMES!!!!!!!! TELL ME NOW HOW TO FIX THE GAP... I'M NOT IGNORANT NOR STUPID, I UNDERSTAND THAT THE RIFLE CAN EXPLODE AND MAYBE TAKE ME WITH IT!!! NOW, TELL ME HOW TO FIX THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

[M1 Tanker]

You need to press the barrel deeper into the trunnion therefore opening up the bolt gap. Then redrill the barrel and pin it in place.

HWG, I want you to know we are not coming down on you. We are really looking out for your safety and the safety of your firearm. Just know that we value your safety first and your feelings second man!!

[LCPL 4]

For some silly reason I started hearing MC Hammer's "That's why we Pray!" "Prayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy" Filling my head.

[mrbgt]

safety 1st . everyone is pushing this because it could get ugly .with the way the roller locking system is designed if you 0 gap the carrier could keep the locking piece and bolt head from completing the locking function which could possibly launch the hole mechanism out the back of your rifle when you fire. you can change to bigger rollers ,try a different locking piece and bolt head or just repress your barrel like was described .if the locking piece and bolt head you have are in good shape, replacing them will probably not get you enough gap .stepping up to +4 rollers should get you the most gap without repressing however it may not be enough. at 0 you cant get a true reading on gap because 0 is metal to metal and +4 may not overcome this .thats why repressing is your best option.

[bspring]

New bolt head, +4 rollers and new locking piece, would be first in my book.

Bill

[mprtech]

Hey Heavy, I have a strong feeling that when you pressed the barrel, you pressed it past flush. If you did indeed press the barrel in the first place. The problem with that is, the bolt face is ramming into the trunion instead of the chamber face. You can check for this by removing the bolt and looking at the rear of the trunion through the mag well and look for a shiny witness mark near the upper corners of the trunion. Not to mention just stick you finger in the trunion and see if the barrel is below the ridge in the trunion.

If thats the case, thats bad news.

Read the stickies in the build it yourself forum. You need to disassemble and repress the barrel to the proper depth.

If your barrel is not beyond flush, measure your rollers. + rollers might be the trick.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

OK,
Where do I find rollers and a new bolt head? I want to square this away ASAP.. I want to try that first then we'll go towards repressing the barrel.

[M1 Tanker]

Changing the bolt/rollers isn't going to fix it HWG, you REALLY need to fix the barrel and install it correctly. I cannot stress this enough.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

ok, I'll do it.. no I wont either - both cetmes of mine (yes the century too) are going to my local gunsmith today (wednesday) I obviously am not qualified in headspacing and stuff so, off they go to be re-pressed. I know where I can hire this done cheap. I should have done it to begin with with the one I built but I didnt.. so now both cetmes are getting in spec..

Thanks for the help, sorry if I got mad or anything...

[Thauglor]

Make sure they have worked with the roller-locked mechanism before, and that they cant use guages to check headspace on the roller-locked system.

[jfowl31]

yep... VERY important that the gunsmith knows how to work on an HK type rifle... Headspace guages will not work on an HK... everything is checked by bolt gap.

yada yada yada... just make sure the gunsmith knows how to mess with roller-locked stuff before you end up paying a gunsmith to not fix anything.

[Karl E. Hungus]

hey ahh, new guy here. what exactly deos the term "keyholing" mean?

[wandering_ronin]

Bullet is not striking the target point first. It is more of a sideways strike...the bullet is tumbling. Instead of a nice round hole it leaves an oblong hole...sometimes even a perfect profile of the projectile.

[Karl E. Hungus]

thanks... that sounds wierd.

[rustypirate]

pretty much all high velocity bullets are designed to tumble once they engage a target, and it does not take much to set them off balance. If this occurs as the bullet is leaving the barrel due to a burr or poor crown, then the bullet is tumbling the whole distance downrange. In this instance you are lucky to hit the broadside of a barn as the stabilizing force of the bullet spinning along its long axis has been disrupted.

[glimmerman]

I'll bet money he takes it to someone that has no idea how the roller lock system works and gets charged a really absorbident amout of $$ and have nothing done.:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

[texlurch]

I give him props for attempting to build one, but should have researched a little more beforehand.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

Got my cetmes back from the local gunsmith a few minutes ago... he Re-pressed both barrels, and I now have a nice gap of around .020 on each rifle and it only set me back $50 - $25 per rifle. Test fired both guns earlier and they shoot great with their new gap... thanks for the input guys :-)

and yes, the reason I got such a good deal on this barrel re-pressing is that I know this gunsmith really well and have dealt with him for a long time.. And yes, he does know all about the roller locking system on HK style rifles..

thanks

[heavy_weapons_guy]

also, the reason for the keyholing was the muzzle brake... so I now have to shoot the cetme (that was keyholing) without its brake unless I can find a good brake that wont clip the bullets on their way out the barrel.......... Any suggestions????????????

[texlurch]

That is excellent! Do you feel any difference in the way they shoot, compared to before? Check the gap a few times after you shoot them because they tend to close up a bit and then steady out.
I would just get a standard CETME flash hider and be good to go.

Just curious. Next time you talk to him ask his opinion of grinding the back of bolts to restore bolt gap.. I am interested to get his take, since he is familiar with the system.

[hunter_la5]

so I now have to shoot the cetme (that was keyholing) without its brake unless I can find a good brake that wont clip the bullets on their way out the barrel.......... Any suggestions????????????

I would recommend SSwee's US made flash hider. It looks great and I honesty dont feel any more recoil than i did when I had a brake on it instead. The muzzle blast is a whole lot better too.

[Warwagon]

also, the reason for the keyholing was the muzzle brake... so I now have to shoot the cetme (that was keyholing) without its brake unless I can find a good brake that wont clip the bullets on their way out the barrel.......... Any suggestions????????????

HWG,
I sounds like your brake may be a little short on ID(Inside Diameter) The solution could be as simple as opening it up a couple of thousandths on a lathe. Or, perhaps the hole was bored off center from poor indexing of the piece during manufacture. I doubt that opening up the ID would hurt in either case, and may help massively with bullet drag if it is done so as to maintain concentricity with the barrel centerline.

Your other option, as stated earlier, is to go with another suppressor or flash hider. Just watch your US parts count if you're replacing a US made unit. You have the keyholing problem figured out, I'd say. Now it is just a simple thing to make the rifle the way you want it. Way to go man!:thumbup:

[rustypirate]

I think that SSwee's flash hiders are the best option available right now.

I would contact him and aquire one to replace the break, Original style and US made.

[jfowl31]

That was EXTREMELY fast... I hope everything stays perfect for you. Did you ask him about the process he went through to do it, or does he work on HK's all the time. I figured it would at least be a few days turnaround to get him to pull the pin out, oull the barrel out, flip it 180 degrees, end mill it, drill it, pin it and refinish it... TWICE! If that guy is really doing all that work for that cheap, Im 100% positive he will have a bunch of business from guys here who dont want to mess with it themselves.

Lets hope he went through the process correctly and didnt cut any corners anywhere. Check that gap regularly to make sure nothings moving on you, and if it was done right, it should settle in around .017 or so.

What size rollers do you have in the rifle... we should have mentioned that before you had the work done... if youve got +4's in there already, the rifle wont last as long... but it will still last more than the average guy shoots in a lifetime.

Glad you got it worked out, and sorry for being so pushy about it.

and... with the FH, the threading could have been done crooked, so it may bot be your FH, but could be your threading.

if it IS the FH, Ill put in another good word for SSWEE's FH... Its US made, looks cool, and is very affordable.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

That was EXTREMELY fast... I hope everything stays perfect for you. Did you ask him about the process he went through to do it, or does he work on HK's all the time. I figured it would at least be a few days turnaround to get him to pull the pin out, oull the barrel out, flip it 180 degrees, end mill it, drill it, pin it and refinish it... TWICE! If that guy is really doing all that work for that cheap, Im 100% positive he will have a bunch of business from guys here who dont want to mess with it themselves.

Lets hope he went through the process correctly and didnt cut any corners anywhere. Check that gap regularly to make sure nothings moving on you, and if it was done right, it should settle in around .017 or so.

What size rollers do you have in the rifle... we should have mentioned that before you had the work done... if youve got +4's in there already, the rifle wont last as long... but it will still last more than the average guy shoots in a lifetime.

Glad you got it worked out, and sorry for being so pushy about it.

and... with the FH, the threading could have been done crooked, so it may bot be your FH, but could be your threading.

if it IS the FH, Ill put in another good word for SSWEE's FH... Its US made, looks cool, and is very affordable.

The rollers are all original - he let me keep the original rollers and parts in the rifles but the barrels were turned 180 degrees and re-pressed/pinned. Please do point me in the direction of the SSWEE flash hider... Thanks and sorry about yelling at you earlier..

[heavy_weapons_guy]

That is excellent! Do you feel any difference in the way they shoot, compared to before? Check the gap a few times after you shoot them because they tend to close up a bit and then steady out.
I would just get a standard CETME flash hider and be good to go.

Just curious. Next time you talk to him ask his opinion of grinding the back of bolts to restore bolt gap.. I am interested to get his take, since he is familiar with the system.

Yes, it shoots a lot better now, more smooth like :-) . As far as grinding bolts to restore gap, even I would say no to that... pressing the barrel back in to get gap is the best option. But yes, I'll ask my gunsmith about it..

[texlurch]

Yes, it shoots a lot better now, more smooth like :-) . As far as grinding bolts to restore gap, even I would say no to that... pressing the barrel back in to get gap is the best option. But yes, I'll ask my gunsmith about it..

I noticed lesser recoil on mine when I increased the bolt gap as well, that is why I asked.

And we are putting our FAQ's back together from the old site. One was a discussion on ground bolts so any info from a knowledgeable smith would be much welcomed!

[hunter_la5]

Please do point me in the direction of the SSWEE flash hider.

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=71

or you can just PM "SSwee" here on the forum

[jfowl31]

The rollers are all original - he let me keep the original rollers and parts in the rifles but the barrels were turned 180 degrees and re-pressed/pinned. Please do point me in the direction of the SSWEE flash hider... Thanks and sorry about yelling at you earlier..

No biggie... Im just glad you got it sorted out and for such a great cost!

Give us some info about this gunsmith... I bet this one board could keep him quite busy if he's good with roller systems.

The ground bolt stuff is a touchy subject really... every now and then we'll get some yahoo who thinks its perfectly safe because Century said so...

It ain't good... But the argument is always... "None of you guys are HK gunsmiths, so what you say means nothing." Itd be nice to get something in writing from an HK gunsmith on the issue to put into the FAQ section.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

No biggie... Im just glad you got it sorted out and for such a great cost!

Give us some info about this gunsmith... I bet this one board could keep him quite busy if he's good with roller systems.

The ground bolt stuff is a touchy subject really... every now and then we'll get some yahoo who thinks its perfectly safe because Century said so...

It ain't good... But the argument is always... "None of you guys are HK gunsmiths, so what you say means nothing." Itd be nice to get something in writing from an HK gunsmith on the issue to put into the FAQ section.

The gunsmith I used is a small time gunsmith who just fixes guns for local people around here... I agree the board here could keep him busy and all but he only does work for local people..

[bullseye]

HWG, you got incredibly lucky finding a local that understands this rifle and could do it that unbelieveably cheap as fast as he did it. WOW, if my luck was that good, I'd go buy a bunch of lottery tickets. Great for you, hope you have lots of ammo. :):sterb126: :sterb126:

[heavy_weapons_guy]

HWG, you got incredibly lucky finding a local that understands this rifle and could do it that unbelieveably cheap as fast as he did it. WOW, if my luck was that good, I'd go buy a bunch of lottery tickets. Great for you, hope you have lots of ammo. :):sterb126: :sterb126:

Thanks :-) . Now I just wish I had plenty of ammo to shoot... I'm just sitting on some 250- 300 rounds of .308 right now for the cetmes.. Wish I had more...
As for buying lottery tickets, since I seemed to have good luck on getting the cetmes fixed, do you want me to pick your next lottery ticket numbers ? :wink: :-)

Thanks
Heavy Weapons Guy

[jfowl31]

before you go shoot it and have more problems... the Cetme shoots 7.62x51 NATO ammo, not .308 win.

You may already know that, but maybe not... You have a possibility of getting case head separations from shooting 308 win.

[heavy_weapons_guy]

before you go shoot it and have more problems... the Cetme shoots 7.62x51 NATO ammo, not .308 win.

You may already know that, but maybe not... You have a possibility of getting case head separations from shooting 308 win.

Yep, got you loud and clear on that one.. The previous case head separations I had were actually from brown bear .308.. However I normally run a mix of radway green and what little south african thru my cetmes..

thanks