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Thread: SIG AMT, 510, or StGw 57? Pics added

  1. #1

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    SIG AMT, 510, or StGw 57? Pics added

    Has anyone ever built any version of a Sig 510?

    There's a good Peter Kokalis article in the Dec. 28 Shotgun News about this Swiss rifle. This was a roller locked rifle based on Mauser WWII designs that were intended to compete with the MP43/ STG44 series.

    The 510-1 was chambered for the 7.5x55mm and was adopted as the StGw 57. The 510-2 was a lightened version that was not adopted. The 510-3 was chambered for 7.62x39, and was a prototype for the Finns, who did not adopt it. The 510-4 was chambered for 7.62x51 and was sold to Bolivia and Chile. The AMT was developed as a semi-auto only version for import to the U.S. as a sporting rifle--"American Match Target." Apparently less than 1500 ever came in.

    Reason I ask is that there are some parts available, but so far I have not found anyone with bolt/carrier, cut receiver, or any compliance parts.

    Looks like a build would involve a lot of parts fabrication.
    Last edited by mitchstoner; 05-16-2010 at 11:49 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Veteran Noskov's Avatar
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    I was chatting with Turbo about possibly building one but ran into a lot of problems which basically cancelled the plan.

    First of all, are the parts kits you're mentioning the ones at Colorado Gun Sale's website? If so they're missing more than just the receiver. I called them last week to double check how many they had and they mentioned they have a few but all are without the barrel. They haven't updated the website and taken down the image of the parts kit with the barrel.

    Secondly the biggest problem is the receiver itself. I spent many hours over several days trying to source any info on it. Many people have tried to build a receiver but none have been able to do it. I read that the Swiss used a complicated design when building it; its like the receiver is part stamped, part milled and part cast/forged. I was thinking it would be a simple "cut a flat and bend it" deal but it isn't. To give you an idea how difficult it is, DSArms (the FAL company) abandonded their plans for their own SIG AMT receivers because of cost and complexity. Thats why they off loaded their SIG AMT parts kits for rock bottom prices a few years ago. If they can't build it considering their financial set up, not to mention in house tools and equipment; a home-brewed receiver doesn't sound possible or at least cost effective.

    Thats basically where I gave up on my attempted build of one. Its a beautiful gun but the intricate Swiss design makes it almost impossible to rebuild. Thats why complete rifles sell fast and for a lot of money. I saw one on gunbroker.com sell for its asking price of $6,500 and it was up for less than 6hours on a week long auction.

    I hope I didn't shoot down any aspirations for one but thankfully I didn't buy the parts kit first otherwise I'd have a bunch of parts for a rifle I can't build. Hopefully this saves you the possible mistake as well.
    Last edited by Noskov; 01-25-2010 at 01:17 AM.

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    I'd love to own one; but I can assure you unless you have a complete machine shop and the blueprints like Noskov said - you just aren't going to bend a piece of sheet metal, pop a couple of rivets, and cold blue this one!

    On a side note -
    There's a good Peter Kokalis article in the Dec. 28 Shotgun News about this Swiss rifle.
    I've never read a good article by him in any shotgun news. I personally can not take someone serious who when he wrote a article about the RPG-7 that he dressed like a PLO Freedom Fighter or when he wrote about German WWII subguns he dressed like a Waffen SS Soldier. His "I've been everywhere in the SpecOps World" line gets old...fast That's my opinion.
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    Senior Veteran Noskov's Avatar
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    I still read Shotgun News but most of the time its to look at the ads and such. Kokalis's reviews have been interesting but he seems like he criticizes a lot of designs for being "complicated".

    Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to buy the issue with the StG topic, but glanced over it at the bookstore.

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    There was a guy I spoke with at the NRA show in Milwaukee in 2006 who was, at the time, making recievers for PE57/AMT in .308 and 7.5 respectively. He actually had a rifle assembled on one of his recievers. I think he was called North American Ordnance, but his website doesn't work anymore(www.naord.com I think). He had a pretty small operation at the time. The receivers weren't cheap either, but still considerably less than an original.
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    Interesting info, gentlemen, thanks.

    The parts I have seen are on DSArms website. They apparently have more stuff than the Colorado Gun Sales outfit, which I had never heard of until reading Noskov's post above. Thinking about this today, it occurred to me that I might get enough info from photos to make a non-functional dummy receiver, and hang all the other parts on it. A display only gun.

    I have a VZ 58 parts kit, but have not wanted to pay the price for a receiver, so I bought one of ATI's dummy plastic receivers to stick the kit on, for display. It's a cheap way of having an obscure little known firearm in a budget collection. And you have the parts if a receiver is ever available cheaper, or you happen to win Powerball.

    I'm still on the fence about buying the stuff, cause the wifey has gotten rather cranky lately about my Visa usage. Oh, well...
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  7. #7
    Senior Veteran Noskov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchstoner View Post
    Interesting info, gentlemen, thanks.

    The parts I have seen are on DSArms website. They apparently have more stuff than the Colorado Gun Sales outfit, which I had never heard of until reading Noskov's post above. Thinking about this today, it occurred to me that I might get enough info from photos to make a non-functional dummy receiver, and hang all the other parts on it. A display only gun.

    I have a VZ 58 parts kit, but have not wanted to pay the price for a receiver, so I bought one of ATI's dummy plastic receivers to stick the kit on, for display. It's a cheap way of having an obscure little known firearm in a budget collection. And you have the parts if a receiver is ever available cheaper, or you happen to win Powerball.

    I'm still on the fence about buying the stuff, cause the wifey has gotten rather cranky lately about my Visa usage. Oh, well...
    There might be a slim light of hope. On one of my late night info hunts over the net I did stumble across a currently active thread about a possible receiver project. Unfortunately because it was late at night I lost the presence of mind to bookmark the page.

    Apparently these guns are surplus arms in the EU and can be had for as little as (the equivalent of course) $400 to $600 if I remember the post correctly.

    I'll see if I can source that thread again over the weekend. A dummy wall-hanger gun sounds like a good idea.

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    I did go ahead and order the parts available from DSA. Their pics show the front forging (or whatever) of the receiver is included with the complete barrel asssy. The pic and description of the rear sight assembly states the rear forging (or whatever) of the receiver is part of it. What I would have to reproduce between the front and rear is a stamped sheet steel section. So a somewhat realistic dummy receiver can probably be made from photos and dimensions. I did find dimensions in a parts manual online.

    As for making a working receiver, that would depend on either prints, or a receiver to reverse-engineer from.

    A non-firing replica would not need a bolt and carrier assy of course. But DSA also offers a stripped bolt carrier in both auto and semi versions. I included one of those in my order, even though it will likely just become a rather interesting desk paperweight.

    One of the most visible differences between the military 510 series and the AMT was the barrel. The military barrel has 2 bulges which are meant to fit rifle grenades. These were lacking on the AMT barrels. From the pics on DSA's site, the barrels are the military type. And they also have spare barrels, in addition to the complete front assemblies. Interestingly, the Kokalis article mentions a guy who machines a sleeve with the 2 bulges so an AMT owner can make his barrel look more like a 510.

    ps. re: Kokalis, I happen to enjoy his articles and find them very informative, but I am probably less experienced with firearms than many on here.
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  9. #9

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    Here's some stuff I have found in the last hour or so:

    SIG AMT on Auction Arms for $4599 starting bid (no bids so far): http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...8469&oh=216543

    SIG 510 parts kit on GunsAmerica (closed listing--can't tell if it sold or not) $795: http://www.gunsamerica.com/945023179..._PARTS_KIT.htm

    SIG 510 parts kit on GunBroker for $1500 (listed it several times for $2000): http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=155201275
    Last edited by mitchstoner; 01-27-2010 at 12:56 AM.
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  10. #10
    Veteran Bluedog's Avatar
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    The guy selling his on gunbroker would not have a scratched for arm if he would turn those bipod legs around and mount the bipod above the barrel, like it's supposed to be.

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