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Thread: MarColMar and HMG Cetme L a Detailed Comparison

  1. #31
    Senior Veteran Combloc's Avatar
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    I had to go outside to clean up snow today but found this picture as I was getting ready. On the back was written, "February 1945. A member of Kampfgruppe Wilhelm takes aim from inside a house. He is armed with an example of a super duper top secret experimental wunderwaffe known only by its code name AMG (Armee Mann Gewehr).



  2. #32
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    Lol! Cool!
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  3. #33
    Senior Veteran Combloc's Avatar
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    Well, I finally got the chance to get the MCM rifle to the range this past weekend. I was really looking forward to this because, having had the HMG one for a while now and enjoying how reliable and accurate it is, I was expecting more of the same from the new MCM. It was the first decently warm day we've had here for months so that, coupled with it being a Sunday, meant a full range. Normally, I start a new rifle at 25 yards to make sure it's on paper and walk it out from there but, because it was so busy, I didn't want to bother people so I just set my target out at 100 yard and hoped for the best. I guess I could use a spotting scope but I don't own one, You see, I'm a pretty unsophisticated guy and I enjoy the walking back and forth as it's good for me. Besides, the range I use is often pretty deserted so I just fire a few rounds, walk down to check the target, adjust the sights and repeat. The disadvantage to this way of doing things is that it's pretty much unworkable with a busy range. That's ok, it just gives me an excuse to go to the range more often!
    Anywho, I set the target up and commenced to shooting 100 rounds of plain ol' Lake City M855 ball as recommended by the manual.
    Let's start with reliability. I had exactly zero problems. In fact, it was quite obvious that MarColMAr put a lot of effort into tuning the springs just right. I own a fair number of roller locked firearms from Switzerland, Germany, Turkey and Pakistan so I am used to how these things usually eject the casings into orbit and mangle them while doing so. The only exception to this rule until this past weekend has been my SIG 510. That rifle almost drops the casings out at your feet because the design is so perfectly balanced.....it's Swiss.....that's what they do. But I digress.
    The HMG rifle ejects casings just like my HK93, violently and destructively. The MCM AMG is in direct contrast to that and is more like the SIG. Casings were uniformly ejected at about 2 o'clock and landed about 8 feet away.
    Let's take a look at a random sampling of ten spent cartridges:

    It's hard to tell from my terrible washed out picture but almost every single one is dented (from slapping against the receiver) in almost exactly the same place. I used to seeing cases so mangled (again, with the SIG being a notable exception) they look like they were beat with a hammer. I'm no engineer but the uniformity of marks on the brass tells me the system is almost perfectly balanced.


    Here's a closeup of the dent's I'm talking about:

    I'm assuming that, if you're reading this, you already understand about flutes on roller locks and why spent rounds are so dirty so I won't bother discussing that.


    However, just for fun, I want post a picture illustrating how the brass expanded into the flutes a little which is, of course, perfectly normal:

    I just love looking at these things. Roller locks turn each spent casing into a miniature work of art. I wish I could keep them all.


    Here we see that only the case on the far right shows any sign of neck deformity. Usually, these things are pretty smashed in:



    And the base:

    Not much to see here.


    So, so far, reliability is perfect!


    Next up are some thoughts on the front sight. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the front sight on the MCM is much thinner than the one that came on my HMG rifle so it should be more precise. While I'm sure it is, that is lost on my aging eyes. I'm sure that I could have made better use of the front sight 20 years ago but it's just too thin for me now. It's so blurry that much of the time I was guessing about where the top of it was. If I REALLY concentrated, I could sometimes make it out but the fact is, at my age, a wider front sight post would be better. Of course, MCM makes a version with a rail on top the receiver so I could but one of those and mount an optic but I'm a purist and wanted my AMG to be as close to original as possible. This precluded a rail. My advise to MarColMar is that they offer front sight blades of different widths so that us older dudes can tune our sights to our geezerish peepers.

    I'd also like to say something about the trigger pull. As I said, I'm not very sophisticated so I don't have one of those fancy-dancy trigger pull weight thingees. This means I have no idea what weight the pull actually is. What I do know is that, at round number 1, the MCM rifle had a trigger pull almost identical to my HK93 and 91, which is to say it's kind of heavy and creepy. I can also tell you that the HMG rifle has a pull significantly less heavy and less creepy than any of those three. The good news is, by round number 100, it was much lighter and smoother. It still isn't quite as good as the HMG trigger but it's now better than my HK's which have had a metric ton of rounds through them over the past 30 years. They are most definitely NOT getting any better at this point. SO, kudo's to both MCM and HMG on besting the Teutonic gods!

    Let's move on to accuracy.
    I'd love to tell you how accurate this rifle is but I can't. After I fired all 100 rounds I waited for the range to go cold and headed down to retrieve the target, curious as to how well it grouped. To my slight surprise, the target was as whole as when I hung it up. Not one round touched it. I thought, "that's damned odd" and headed home, hoping to head out the next day when the range would likely be much less busy.
    I was in luck as the next day there were only a few of us at the range. So, I set my target out at 25 yards, loaded three rounds into the magazine, took aim and fired. Of the first three shots, only one was on the very far left. No problem. Crank the rear sight to the right five or six clicks and try again. The next three were farther right but still nowhere near the center of the target. Lets crank it farther right. Click, click, click, stop. Oh crap....the sight is buried as far right as it will go! Let's try three more rounds. Nope, still well left of center. We have a problem.
    Here's the 25 yard target:

    The single hole circled in blue was part of my first three rounds. The next set is circled in green. By the third set of shots, circled in red, you can tell I beginning to get frustrated as the shot dispersion is opening up. Disheartened, I cleaned up and headed home to take pictures.

    Here are a few pictures of the rear sight as it currently sits:







    Having been shooting for more decades than I want to admit now and having owned the HMG Cetme L for some time as well, I think I'm pretty good on knowing how to aim a rifle but, just to be sure, I took the rifle to the range again today and recruited two random guys to try the rifle out at 25 yards. One was an older gentleman whom I often see at the range so I know he shoots a fair amount. The other was a younger guy who I have only run into one other time but he obviously knows what he is doing as well. I still had 9 rounds of M855 ball left from Monday when I tried to zero the rifle so I asked one guy to fire five rounds at the bottom of the black using a six o'clock hold. I then asked the other shooter to fire six rounds at the colored dot using the same six o'clock hold. Below is the result with the first guy circled in red:

    I hate to say it but, at this point, I have a beautiful green rifle that cannot be zeroed. I guess I need to contact MarColMar. It's under warranty so I have no doubt that MCM will do whatever is necessary to correct the problem. I will report back.

  4. #34
    holescreek's Avatar
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    The first photo below the target looks like the rear sight base is shifted significantly left of center.

  5. #35
    Senior Veteran Combloc's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that's just camera angle. I don't have a laser or anything but it looks to me like my front sight base is canted. That might be my eyes playing tricks on me though.

  6. #36
    holescreek's Avatar
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    Could be, but then I'd expect to see the edges of the hand guard lopsided too. Digital cameras play tricks on us though.

  7. #37
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    Yes, MarColMar needs to fix this.
    14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer

  8. #38
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    This is a first for us, we've not had any issues with not being on paper or sights being anywhere but almost dead center... and everything is welded in a jig the same... we will certainly fix it and address it asap...

    If you want to ship it back or bring it with you next week we can do that... we'll get right.

    Dave Bane
    MarColMar Firearms LLC

  9. #39
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    FYI the front sight post we made is the same as the majority of AR-15 front sight widths... it is narrower than two of the three original CETME L front sight blades, but they were basically unusable being so wide.

  10. #40
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    I went in today and boresighted EVERY rifle still in inventory and double checked sights... we didn't have any that required the rear blade be fully moved to the right, but we did have a couple that were right of center a little more than I like... so we pulled them out of production... I'm a little anal that way...

    SO we have immediately instituted boresighting moving forward, of every CETME L just after it is barreled to ensure we have no cant issues... Monday we are going to look at our barrel pinning jig to see if it can be tightened or improved... and we'll get Combloc's gun back here and rebarrel her... and fix any other one that may be out there for current owners.

    Unfortunately this is the first one we've had, and it had to happen to Combloc... Out of almost 300 guns delivered we have had 6 warranty items that needed looked at.. one of these was the original cocking handle spring broke the first day out... a mag catch issue, a weld concern, and a gun we had to add more power to, and a cocking tube concern, and a broken charging handle.. so we have a 2% warranty rate, which is 2% too high for me. If we remove the two original part issues its about 1.5%...

    Thanks for all your help guns and support as we get production up and running... rest assured if there are issues MarColMar is going to address for our customers!

    Dave Bane
    Owner
    MarColMar Firearms LLC

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