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Thread: Our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion

  1. #1
    Senior Veteran SteelCore's Avatar
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    Our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion

    "From Hitler to Pinochet and beyond, history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms."

    Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

    If you think this is BS or conspiracy theory, pop over to Naomi Wolf's YouTube talk (47minutes) and you'll see that she's no crackpot. She's intelligent, a researcher, and student of history.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

    Her book may already be out.

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    Veteran LorDiego's Avatar
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    I saw her on the Colbert Report and thought she was very eloquent and presented her reasearch very well.

    However, I thought I had read her "research" many times before, many years before. Did she just compile it from the net and slap her name on it???

    Either way, I believe she makes a strong point and I cannot disagree with any of her views...

  3. #3
    Senior Veteran SteelCore's Avatar
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    Nah...

    but tere have been similar researches in the past. waaay back in the 80's, there was this book:

    and It is similar but focuses only on the comparison of Nazi Germany to 80s america...and the parallels have only gotten more ominous.

    I encourage anyone who values the constitution, not the paper but the ideas, to watch the video and listen. I'll spoil it a bit by quoting a minute or so from the speech near the end (it's OK if it brings a tear to your eye, if yer a red-blooded patriot!):

    "The founders did not intend for us to delegate the defense of liberty to a professional class of pundits or politicians or constitutional scholars...the founders intended for us to do it...for ordinary people to assume the Patriot's task, and to lead the fight to restore democracy, and see themselves as leaders...and to take on the responsibility to restore liberty...it's your job, it's my job...to stand up for this extraordinary experiment that has given us freedom for two hundred years...the time to stand up for it is now."

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    Norton's Avatar
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    Well I read it and I think she took a page from the Nazis and Communist herself.
    She presented certain facts out of context with the larger picture
    She presented Rumours as facts
    She presented several facts that were twisted until they worked in for her point of view
    But last she makes the case if the Nazis did X in 1933 and the USA does Y in 2003 that equals Z.. Bush wants to be Hitler.
    Anybody can do that on paper,
    Hell I could prove the pope is a Communist on paper, If I used that sort of logic.
    I am very worried with the way the Goverment is taking away our rights and I think they do it a little at a time.

    But I think this was a left wing rant.
    Where was she at during Waco, Randy Weaver or dragging little Elian out of his house at the point of a MP 5 ?

    I will tell you.. defending the US goverments and Clinton


    To imply there is some sort of plot, with Republican men wearing the same shirts and trousers (read Brown Shirts) keeping people away from voting booth is something I do not buy.

    BTW I am no big fan of Bush myself, but I do think he wants to be Hitler.
    I loath Hillary but I do think she wants to be the next Stalin
    Last edited by Norton; 12-05-2007 at 08:54 PM.
    We thought about it for a long time, "Endeavor to persevere." And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union

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    Senior Veteran SteelCore's Avatar
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    She doesn't say Bush wants 2 B hitler...

    in her speech, she actually says Hitlery could be the one, sonce the erosion of rights by the current Administration laid the groundwork. The groundwork's been laid piece by piece sinc about 1933. Hel, Guiliani could be the one. Regardless, the culture of elected officials serving themselves and not us is the issue, the bipartisan thing is an illusion. its power they all have...and share...but not with us.

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    hunter_la5's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Norton

    and while I do think that the US is (in some respects) slowly heading towards fascist/communist tendencies, I don't think that there is some huge underlying conspiracy guiding us that way, I think we are doing it to ourselves.
    there certainly are politicians, on both sides, facilitating the process as well, but I dont necessarily think there some big sinister plot involved. rather, they are just as ignorant to what they are doing as the rest of us (america, not us in particular), and some may even be doing it with the best of intentions, but as you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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  7. #7
    renegade
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_la5 View Post
    I have to agree with Norton

    and while I do think that the US is (in some respects) slowly heading towards fascist/communist tendencies, I don't think that there is some huge underlying conspiracy guiding us that way, I think we are doing it to ourselves.
    there certainly are politicians, on both sides, facilitating the process as well, but I dont necessarily think there some big sinister plot involved. rather, they are just as ignorant to what they are doing as the rest of us (america, not us in particular), and some may even be doing it with the best of intentions, but as you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    Amen.

  8. #8
    pigpen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_la5 View Post
    I have to agree with Norton

    and while I do think that the US is (in some respects) slowly heading towards fascist/communist tendencies, I don't think that there is some huge underlying conspiracy guiding us that way, I think we are doing it to ourselves.
    there certainly are politicians, on both sides, facilitating the process as well, but I dont necessarily think there some big sinister plot involved. rather, they are just as ignorant to what they are doing as the rest of us (america, not us in particular), and some may even be doing it with the best of intentions, but as you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    My thoughts as well.

    IMNSHO it is the apathy & complaciancy of the general public that leads the way to a socialist hell, followed by a nasty dictatorship.


    I'm like a pirate:Always look'n fer Booty!

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    "and to lead the fight to restore democracy, "

    the problem with many americans is that, they don't understand the principles under which this country was established. i copied part of a statement from earlier post as an example. WE are a republic, not a democracy, a republican form of government is mandated by article 4 section 4 of the US constitution. if we fight to restore anything it's our constitutional republic. People need to be educated in the writings of our founders and reapply their vision to ourselves and our government, we need to return to being self reliant and not more dependent on govenment handouts. as has been said before, the government that can give you everything, can take everthing.

    not picking on anyone, but everytime i hear it said we are a democracy, it just hits a raw nerve

  10. #10
    Senior Veteran SteelCore's Avatar
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    "I don't think that there is some huge underlying conspiracy guiding us that way, I think we are doing it to ourselves."
    -->I TOTALLY agree with this statement above...There is no need for conspiracy, only complacency, and that's covered (lotsa ppl are of the mind that they "shouldn't be confused with the facts, thier minds are made up").

    "certainly are politicians, on both sides, facilitating the process as well, but I dont necessarily think there some big sinister plot involved."
    -->Oh, I'm sure that Feinstein actually believes that taking all our guns will save lives, but like most politicians, she thinks she knnows best for her flock of citizen sheeple. That ain't freedom. [sarcasm]I know Giuliani comes from a city that is one big "gun free zone" but I'm sure he wouldn't try to take *my* guns away...[/sarcasm]
    see? No sinister plot. they just want the best for us, AS THEY SEE IT. Sure, we can get innputs in too them still, and we still have a bit of influence, I agree. Remember when Dubai Ports World was gonna take over a bunch of US ports from a Brit company, and the people were up in arms abt that? That stopped that crap, even tho some folks obviously lost $$$ on the deal.

    "they are just as ignorant to what they are doing as the rest of us (america, not us in particular)"-
    -->OK, but what happens when some guy puts together the trends, and then realizes that the folks before him inadvertently handed him the keys to the abolishment of the constitution and the end of the rule of Liberty and the individuals rights?

    "some may even be doing it with the best of intentions"-->I bet Hitler, Stalin and Saddam had the best intentions when they began mass exterminations of the people in their societies that they deemed "the problem"

    Obviously some have no intent of actually listening to 47 minutes of something that might challenge the status quo. Shes no lunatic, just a person doing some trending...and history does repeat itself.

    Also, just look at the 10 steps to fascism and apply it to history, or current events, in say, Pakistan. How do you think that Pervez Musharraf kept the status quo? Gee, that looks familiar.

    No conspiracy here, even she says it is done unconsciously. Apply the 10 steps to Viet Nam...they still work.

    You can argue her politics or her motive, but the 10 steps are historcally demonstrable. remember when you apply them not to look for intent or purpose for their application, just that they are applied. EVERY TIME.

    "WE are a republic, not a democracy"
    -->OK, sorry. not central to my discussion here, I'll not argue semantix with ye. If semantics is yer mind-block to this info, every time she (or I in my posts) say "democracy" you just say "republic" in your mind, and it'll all be OK.
    Anybody can google 'democracy' and 'republic' and get that info.

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